[Sloper]

I can't grade flour but that doen't mean that my new routes are any different than if I was the most reliable and accurate grading machine known to man; nor does it mean that I'm dishonest and seeking to play down the grade to inflate a leaky ego (or over grade, from perhaps font 6b+ to E3 to establish a 'wow what a cool dude' image).

I'm not stating the promise is Ex or the walk of like is Ey as I haven't been on either.  I would however suggest that even if the grades originally given do settle down over time it would be wrong: on account of these two examples, to say that James deliberately overgrades rather that has has erred on two occasions.  I would be interested to know what the consensus is on the grading of his other routes and let's not forget other notable pioneers have had routes substanitally down graded and not received the public attacks.

James Pearson, Like Dave Macloed, Dawes, Dunne etc are talented climbers who have pushed the boundary in a way that we would fear to dream of and when you're doing this you're inevitably going to get the odd grade wrong and perhaps substantially so.  What is not in doubt is that James has climbed the lines that we can only hope to aspire to and I think that criticism of a few grades smack of sour grapes and allegations of dishonest over grading of worse.

I think I can recall seeing (on video of course) Chris Sharma saying that if he had to grade the Mandala he'd give it V16, now then given that this has settled at what V11? who'd going to be the first to weigh in and say the things about Sharma that are being said about James.

Slackline is spot on the grade is for a hypothetical onsight, EOTA waited what 20 years for the onsight as did many of the great grit routes of that decade, I'm fairly sure we'll have onsights of the walk of life etc in another 20 years and then we'll have a reliable yeardstick to assess the grade, but for the moment we have to say regardless of the grade a great effort on the part of the two ascentionists.

[dave]

good effort there by M-clowd. the only bit in his blog i don't really fathom is this bit:

The first reason the walk isn’t harder than E9 is there is no requirement to be fit. It’s possible to take both hands off on almost every move (not that you actually would, but the point is it’s not at all strenuous).

kinda implies that no off-vertical route can ever be harder than E9 just because its not a pumpfest, which just seems out of wack to me. imagine WOL with every hold half as big - you could still take hands off if your footwork was good enough, but it'd be harder than E9 shirley.

[Ru]

good effort there by M-clowd. the only bit in his blog i don't really fathom is this bit:

The first reason the walk isn’t harder than E9 is there is no requirement to be fit. It’s possible to take both hands off on almost every move (not that you actually would, but the point is it’s not at all strenuous).

kinda implies that no off-vertical route can ever be harder than E9 just because its not a pumpfest, which just seems out of wack to me. imagine WOL with every hold half as big - you could still take hands off if your footwork was good enough, but it'd be harder than E9 shirley.

Well you could read that into it, but I doubt that was the point he was trying to make.

[Fiend]

Please don't let this descend into yet another nasty grade bitch fest.

Let's not sink to that level please.

^^^ What he said. And that includes throwaway accusations and bitching against other people too.

Thankfully most of the time on here there can be very useful and well-thought-out discussions of such matters, particularly when people remember the amount of variance and vagueness in such matters. As well as the SCIENCE behind it, of course .

One worthy comment from UKC though...

I wouldn't mind betting that one day in the far distant future WOL, EW and Rhapsody all settle at around about the same grade and that that grade is neither E9 nor E12.

...seems fair that if two grades seem a bit extreme either way, it's likely to be somewhere in between.


P.S. Just to reiterate about something I said earlier: I totally agree with Neil's point, that is my line of thinking too, any confusion about me thinking DM is all there is to trad climbing (and ignoring the onsight massive) is simply laziness in my posting, nothing else. I hope that is perfectly sodding clear now.

[Paul B]

Before James removed the pegs and added the direct start did this route get E8?

[Duma]

yeah, "Dyer Straits" E8 6c wasn't it? Ian vickers route if IRC

[dave]

its remarkable how perceptions on grades must differ from person to person. reading pearson's blog, on paper you've got this old E8 route with pegs, given F8a+, so the pegs come out, some holds come off, you add a direct start that someone else tried and estimated at E10 on its own, (plus a different finish, do i remember that right?) and it all adds up to E9 thats about f8a+ according to Run-DMC. theres some wack math going on somewhere, like someone forgot to carry the 3. Was the original route at E8 ever repeated/confirmed?

[Paul B]

That was my thinking Dave. Either way I'm guessing it'll settle somewhere in the middle.

[Stu Littlefair]

Having tried the route in question, i don't think Dave's grade math is that far out, at least concerning the french grade anyway. It isn't a sustained route, especially for the iron-calved. I can totally see how James' direct start doesn't actually increase the french grade of the original line at all (the finish is identical). I'm not really qualified to comment on the E-grade having done nothing of similar style or difficulty.

Brilliant efforts by Dave and James both; I think Dave's comment that this isn't exactly James's usual forte is probably quite perceptive. With that in mind, I'm even more impressed by James's decision to remove the pegs from the original line. Now there's an ethical statement that I hope catches on.

[north_country_boy]

There are a few factors to consider: (ones i think are most important)

- The start has never really been discussed in detail by James in terms of difficulty (french grade etc), how hard is it? And my thoughts were always that it must be at least E10 or E11 in its own right to bump the original route up to E12??

- The original grade of the route in terms of difficulty (although it wasn't repeated, i suspect the state of the pegs played a major role, but how hard is 'the climbing' 8a+?)

- James' experience of climbing similar routes (Trauma is the nearest thing he has done off the grit IRC, but can you compare the two?)

- Dave's experience of climbing similar style routes i.e long mountain style trad, in a serious position, but possibly with lots of marginal gear, is 2nd to none (except for maybe Birkett)

- Due to Dave's experience you would have to say he has the volume of routes behind him to grade it in relation to more comparitive routes (interesting how he listed various routes he thought were harder and easier than it, where would it 'fit' on James' list?)

- Dave is a notoriously harsh grader, but seems to use historic routes from the past to grade in comparison to things he has repeated or put up (if 6 was 9 etc)

- Its a slab, very hard to grade the difficulty of something which when climbing you should feel quite relaxed on in terms of strenuousness

- repeating a route is essentially less stressful than the 1st ascent

Lots of potential reasons for the difference, but I'm inclined to trust the judgement of someone with the 'experience'. I remember James stating that he wasn't interested in repeating other peoples routes any more, and that he was more interested in climbing his own new routes. Thats all fair and well, but what do you use as a baseline to grade them against?

After all, its how everything is graded (on a spectrum/scale of difficulty), I for one compare my experience on routes graded the same, or similar, before deciding on how hard I think something is (of course there is an element of 'your experience on the route' to consider).

  Maybe James will feel more inclined to try repeat Rhapsody or Echo Wall (better get the snow shovel out ready  ) or some of Dave's or Birkett's other routes now to give him a broader range of comparitive routes.

[slackline]

At the end of the day, the grades are just numbers and keep climbers in idle chat between real experiences. What’s left are the climbs and the stories.

Please don't let this descend into yet another nasty grade bitch fest.

There are other threads for all this speculation.

[grimer]

I think maths or no maths, what Dave is saying is that is that it is harder than some routes (eg Holdfast), but easier than others (eg If 6 were 9).

Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right?) Just to see what Benchmark E9 is like. Or should it be entry-level, as it was the first - just like Gaia and EotA are not benchmark E8, they are the easy ones. But even trying it on a rope would probably give an idea of what E9 should feel like.

Agree with NCB and Stu L.

[220bpm]

Yo 

Go Dave, fookin' outstanding stuff. Keen to get a repeat in before it falls down? 

Grades, schmades. Tis a great line and a fine achievement by JP for the FA. Must admit I didn't expect a repeat quite so quickly!

Next.....??

[grimer]

And I can't help but think after all this, Climb Magazine get their 'exclusive', The North Face are over the moon, Mick can whip up a 'debate' and show advertisers a healthy activity graph for January 09.

Then there's James, who bust his ass and scared himself shitless to climb a line that turned him on, but who, I imagine, is now wondering what it's all about.

[slackline]

Then there's James, who bust his ass and scared himself shitless to climb a line that turned him on, but who, I imagine, is now wondering what it's all about.

Thats easy...

Anyway, then I had an epifany...

“Why dont I just forget about all this and go climbing?”

So I did!

[Fatboy]

Kudos Dave, I'd seriously be cr*pping myself on there... That presumes I could even pull on!

[SA Chris]

Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right?) Just to see what Benchmark E9 is like. Or should it be entry-level, as it was the first - just like Gaia and EotA are not benchmark E8, they are the easy ones. But even trying it on a rope would probably give an idea of what E9 should feel like.

I found this very interesting.

When I did the walk, I had Julian Lines and James McCaffie in my mind. They are the masters of this genre. I’m thinking now that Andy Nisbet might well be right when he commented in the Cairngorms guide that Britian’s hardest slab climb might be Icon of Lust.

As far as I know IoL is unrepeated and is, by all accounts, a jaw dropping line (as are many of JLs unrepeated slab routes). Maybe some of them need repeating, come spring?

[T_B]

Good effort Dave Mac and interesting write up, comparisons etc.

This line jumped out at me though:

Certainly the walk felt about the same as leading VIII or IX onsight and was an easier and much shorter battle than Yo Bro a few weeks ago.

Seeing as plenty of the guys leading Scottish VIII on-sight are leading Trad E4 / F7a and no harder, I find this pretty hard to believe.

[SA Chris]

I think he was referring to being used to the duration of time spent on routes rather than the actual difficulty?

[T_B]

I think he was referring to being used to the duration of time spent on routes rather than the actual difficulty?

You're right. Damn my skim reading skills

[Neil F]

When I did the walk, I had Julian Lines and James McCaffie in my mind. They are the masters of this genre. I’m thinking now that Andy Nisbet might well be right when he commented in the Cairngorms guide that Britian’s hardest slab climb might be Icon of Lust.

As far as I know IoL is unrepeated and is, by all accounts, a jaw dropping line (as are many of JLs unrepeated slab routes). Maybe some of them need repeating, come spring?

Am I the only one who thinks the concept of the line (no, not Julian) has become completely confused nowadays?

To get back to (my) dictionary definition corner for a moment, Cenotaph Corner is a line - as is Master's Edge.  The Devil's Tower is covered in lines.

I think Lord of the Flies is a much better route than Cenotaph Corner - actually I'm lying, because I haven't done the Corner - but it isn't a line.  It's a gap on a wall.

Icon of Lust is one of the most stupendous routes I have ever seen.  A truly gobsmacking climb, linking occasional half-features in a huge blank face.  And the location is the finest I've climbed on in the British mountains, with probably a 6 hour wait for help the penalty for a false move.

But lets face it, the hardest and one of the finest British slabs it may be, but it isn't actually a line!

And neither is the first section of Walk of Life - that's a face too, and a mighty impressive one at that, but it only really becomes a line when it joins the thin crack on Dyer Straits....

Anyone else with me on this?

Neil

ps. thanks for the earlier clarification, Fiend.  I think we share the same viewpoint on this!

[dave]

so you're saying something has to be either a corner or the geometric opposite of a corner to be a "line"?

[Fiend]

IMO aretes are the only true lines. Well them and pure jamming cracks. 

[Sloper]

It is interesting to see the range of drivel on cocktalk, Mick Ryan's postings are predictable but Alan James posting that he doesn't understand how some one can make a garding error leads me to conclude that one of the following statements is probably true.

Alan James thinks he's never made a mistake,
That Alan James thinks that as he has established so many routes with 100% grading accuracy that there must be some mendacious reason for a few errors.
That Alan James doesn't understand a great deal about very much at all.

(ps deliberately sophistic posting)

[chillax]

Good effort all round, awesome looking line. To my mind a true line is the most efficient, non-eliminate way of climbing a piece of rock. Discounting everything thats not a crack, corner or arete seems a tad restrictive. Just my opinion though.

btw, who/what/where is Icon of Lust? I must have missed the boat on that one completely and a cursory search turned up nowt.