[abarro81]

Presumably this depends on what we mean by
"grade opinion"
E.g. if I climb a thuggy enduro route given 8c/+, and I have a strong view that it's definitely 8c I would add it to my logbook as 8c, say I thought it was 8c, etc... My grade opinion would be 8c.
Now take Pump up the Power... Which I kind of think is 8c+, in the sense that I find 8c and 8c+s easier even at the same crag. But I would not add it to my logbook as 8c+ and would not expect people to take my view seriously - my opinion is really that it's an 8a+ that's probably 8b+ that really doesn't suit me, rather than that it's an 8c+

[36chambers]

8A+ or 8B should be your grade opinion for it then. Seriously. Is it not the hardest thing you've climbed? There's no other way to judge it.

Where to even start with this

Sorry, I missed this. Starting would be helpful.

I haven't really tried Ben's sit, but by all accounts it would clearly be given 8A if the first ascent had been done today. Slopey, compression based climbing on grit is certainly within Bradders' expertise! Since no one can say with certainty that a problem is grade X and definitely not grade X-1 or grade X+1, then 8A+ is not an unreasonable position for something he found harder than another slopey, compression based grit 8A+.

Apart from all the accounts of people doing it over the past 15(?) years and agreeing it's 7C+.

Everyone i've spoken to who's done it has said it should be 8A. However, I concede that going by my favourite method detailed so far:

Another approach I've used is consider the top grade you think it might be, then remove a grade until you get to a grade that you would be outraged if someone suggested this, and go one above that. Easy

Then 7C+ is probably correct.

I've done it and would vote 7C+. I also think it's remarkably similar in style and difficulty to The Yorkshireman Sitter at Kyloe which also gets 7C+.

[lukeyboy]

Getting horribly off topic here, but Lor Saborin has climbed Mason Earle's route Stranger than Fiction 5.14 in Utah. This is a bit of an undercover hardcore trad route imo, Tom's recently described it as a a steep, burly ~8b in to the upper section which is a similar difficulty to Cobra Crack.

Come on remus, we need your detailed views on grading FAs, not this reporting of significant repeats!

[Dingdong]

8A+ or 8B should be your grade opinion for it then. Seriously. Is it not the hardest thing you've climbed? There's no other way to judge it.

Where to even start with this

Sorry, I missed this. Starting would be helpful.

I haven't really tried Ben's sit, but by all accounts it would clearly be given 8A if the first ascent had been done today. Slopey, compression based climbing on grit is certainly within Bradders' expertise! Since no one can say with certainty that a problem is grade X and definitely not grade X-1 or grade X+1, then 8A+ is not an unreasonable position for something he found harder than another slopey, compression based grit 8A+.

Apart from all the accounts of people doing it over the past 15(?) years and agreeing it's 7C+.

Everyone i've spoken to who's done it has said it should be 8A. However, I concede that going by my favourite method detailed so far:

Another approach I've used is consider the top grade you think it might be, then remove a grade until you get to a grade that you would be outraged if someone suggested this, and go one above that. Easy

Then 7C+ is probably correct.

I've done it and would vote 7C+. I also think it's remarkably similar in style and difficulty to The Yorkshireman Sitter at Kyloe which also gets 7C+.

How tall are you? Having viewed quite a few videos to me it looks like the bottom sequence is harder the taller you are as you’re in quite bunched boxes at the start with the heel etc, Nick is quite tall so may have made it more difficulty engaging in those small boxes?

[Will Hunt]

36c is about to claim to be short. Do not be fooled. He has one of the biggest ape indexes of anybody. He is a closet lank.

[spidermonkey09]

8A+ or 8B should be your grade opinion for it then. Seriously. Is it not the hardest thing you've climbed? There's no other way to judge it.

Where to even start with this

Sorry, I missed this. Starting would be helpful.

I haven't really tried Ben's sit, but by all accounts it would clearly be given 8A if the first ascent had been done today. Slopey, compression based climbing on grit is certainly within Bradders' expertise! Since no one can say with certainty that a problem is grade X and definitely not grade X-1 or grade X+1, then 8A+ is not an unreasonable position for something he found harder than another slopey, compression based grit 8A+.

Apart from all the accounts of people doing it over the past 15(?) years and agreeing it's 7C+.

Sorry, I got distracted with the other thread...

But 36C has summed it up. I haven't really tried it either, in my head its possibly a low 8A but cannot possibly be harder due to the hordes of people that do it and agree its the correct grade.

Bradders clearly had a bit of an epic on it, but that just means he found it hard for a variety of stylistic reasons and/or it got in his head a bit which in turn made it harder. God knows thats happened to me on enough boulders/routes, which felt miles harder than they actually were because I was getting stressed/angry/generally not in a mentally optimal state.

[36chambers]

well I'm nowhere near tall, but I do have a colossal +5 cm ape index which, as Will already knows, is rather impressive.

If the consensus for Ben's is 8A then that's obviously what the grade should be. I found it tricky and reachy but that's my experience for most climbs regardless of the grade

[Dingdong]

well I'm nowhere near tall, but I do have a colossal +5 cm ape index which, as Will already knows, is rather impressive.

If the consensus for Ben's is 8A then that's obviously what the grade should be. I found it tricky and reachy but that's my experience for most climbs regardless of the grade

I must admit I was also gifted with +7cm ape index at 5’6 - works well for most stuff except the really wide stuff

[Bradders]

I still think it's the only way to grade something, with slight caveats: I would modify the grade if I'd wasted time on crap beta, crap conditions, or it was a style I was particularly good/bad at, but it would still mostly be about counting. Trying to judge how hard something felt on the successful go would be even more silly IMO.

Ah cool, sounds good. Ben's Groove Sit must be 8B then, based on how much longer it took (often trying in perfect cons) than quite a lot of other 7C+/8As. Add me to the list Remus!

 

I'd like to point out that I posted the above as an illustration of how wrong grading things based on number of sessions taken can lead you, not as a serious attempt to discuss the grade of Ben's.

• 1. Using your logbook, you get presented with two climbs in the same style (e.g. boulder problems, could be completed or just attempted) and a simple 'which felt harder for you?'

I'm surprised problem comparison isn't the default approach for everyone. Do something new, think of several problems of similar style and consider how it stacks up against them.

This is how I've always approached grading, although it's far from without its problems and you'll always get individual outliers. And it'll never account for just how wildly different people find the difficulty of these things. I mean, if 36C says Ben's felt 7C+ to him then I believe him. All I can say is I've done 45 problems 7C+ and up and it felt much, much harder than any of them, so on the comparison measure I'll never agree that 7C+ is reasonable. Yorkshireman Sit is an interesting comparator style-wise but I've heard that compared favourably to 8Bs in Font so...

[User deactivated.]

Maybe grades should be reduced to have no greater degree of precision than:

7 (7A to 7B)
7+ (7B+ to 7C+)
8 (8A to 8B)

And there would still be some debate at the borders!

[tim palmer]

Which 8bs in font?  i am really curious.

IMO Yorkshireman sit and Ben's groove sit are very similar in terms of style and difficulty.  Both are long established 7c+ and whilst hard in the grade not ridiculous once you know your beta.  Yorkshireman was my first 7c+ in a session,  Ben's took me >10 sessions,  I think I struggled on Ben's because a failure in my climbing rather than it being ridiculous at the grade.  Ben's is also at least a grade easier than zoo York so they can't be the same grade.

[Bradders]

Sorry I used the plural and shouldn't have. Elephunk was the specific one mentioned.

Should stress I've not tried either Yorkshireman Sit or Elephunk, purely what I heard from someone who'd done both. I've no idea whether tongue was in cheek or not.

Maybe grades should be reduced to have no greater degree of precision than:

7 (7A to 7B)
7+ (7B+ to 7C+)
8 (8A to 8B)

And there would still be some debate at the borders!

Yes, I've been advocating this for a while.

[tim palmer]

Sorry I used the plural and shouldn't have. Elephunk was the specific one mentioned.

Ha ha,  I have and I don't think there is any comparison in terms of difficulty but then again that is just my opinion

[tim palmer]

I am disappointed,  was hoping there was another softie for me to try

[Bradders]

Sorry Tim, can't help you there. I'm only the messenger anyway.

[Bradders]

In much more interesting and important news, Noah Wheeler has done the third ascent of Defying Gravity, 10 years after the first and second. This has to be one of the purest boulder problems around, right up there with Floatin' for mega hard but short.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czl8iEvOB_p/?igshid=ZGxyM2V2cTV0NHIz

[Duma]

Caro Ciavaldini has done Le Voyage
https://www.instagram.com/p/CzmAEbSNlQb/?igshid=cTFmZHo2NHQ1d25v

[Bradders]

Kelly Birch has done Muscle Car

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzpuYd5O-b_/?igshid=MXdzMGZ6djF6MXNhOA==

[jwi]

Brooke Raboutou has flashed ‘Nascondino’ 8A+/8B and ‘Darkness’ 8A+ in Ticino

[remus]

Jack Palmieri climbed Woodstone 8A+ at Neath Abbey today. "Business as usual" I hear you say, except it's his 200th 8th grade problem this year. Prolific to say the least.

[teestub]

Hopefully he has run out of low 8’s in the UK now, and will actually have to try something hard for him next year 😄

[yetix]

The 20 8s in 4 days without rest whilst in Sweden was particularly mad.

[remus]

Getting horribly off topic here, but Lor Saborin has climbed Mason Earle's route Stranger than Fiction 5.14 in Utah. This is a bit of an undercover hardcore trad route imo, Tom's recently described it as a a steep, burly ~8b in to the upper section which is a similar difficulty to Cobra Crack.

There's a nice write up of Lor's ascent here https://www.climbing.com/news/lor-sabouin-repeats-5-14-crack-utah/ Well worth a read.

[Wellsy]

I saw that Jimmy Webb repeated an 8C called Equanimity, which has been touted as "the hardest technical boulder in the world"

Makes me think about the grading system and how we use it re. Technique, Strength etc

[User deactivated.]

I saw that Jimmy Webb repeated an 8C called Equanimity, which has been touted as "the hardest technical boulder in the world"

Makes me think about the grading system and how we use it re. Technique, Strength etc

Weird phrase. Harder than Livin' Large, for example?

Even Burden of Dreams must be highly technical, otherwise Yves Gravelle and Allison Vest should book the next flight to Finland to show Aidan Roberts and Simone Lorenzi how it's done.