[Kim]

People seem to want to regrade the entire Peak on the back of one visit by a bunch of exceptionally talented climbers... Hasn't every wad and his dog tried the groove? What's the point in ignoring twenty years of evidence that it's desperate, on the basis of one guy who can piss up E8s and E9s for breakfast...

Edit: Very succinct Jasper  

Edit 2: Echo, you say? Ooops 

[dave]

I do wonder how many of the people who have had a go were trying to climb inside the groove, instead of using the right arete?

i recon anyone seriously trying the groove will have been trying any which way to get the fuck up it. theres hardly enough groove to get inside of anyway.

[cowboyhat]

If The Groove was only E8 then some cunt would have done it years ago. It's not as if nobody tried. 

 I do wonder how many of the people who have had a go were trying to climb inside the groove, instead of using the right arete?

No, Jasper is right. I tried it once years ago with Johnny and Pat; Johnny had a sequence for the first moves in the groove, (which he could do), ended up on the arete anyway. Pat and myself couldn't do anything with it, Groove, arete, whatever.

James had to come up with a one handed slap to do it! This isn't some heelhook that was blatantly overlooked.

[SA Chris]

he did the same start, found pearson's finish impossible (morpho?), and did an easier finish instead.

Isn't impossible only one grade away from very hard? Surely this guy is not a benchmark of hard climbing all of a sudden; just because he couldn't do the move doesn't mean it is impossible, morpho or not.

[Ru]

Again without commenting on the grade, I personally think this "generations of failures" is a bit misleading. The grades given are for James one handed sequence, which I reckon was quite visionary. I can't think of anything else that only goes one handed (compared with many of things that use Brad Pit esque heels), and presumably the one handed sequence was used because it's impossible/very very hard two handed. So unless anyone can say that the generations of failures are likely to have tried the one handed sequence then it's irrelevant that they all failed. They can be accused of missing/not spotting a totally unique solution, but nothing more.

[dave]

clearly its not impossible since pearson did it. "impossible" comes from the quote given earier in this thread:

On my first day, I managed all of the lower moves. I spent my
second and third days attempting the top arete sequence, which felt nearly impossible for my size.

(i missed the word "nearly"). either way the top clearly ain't piss, eliminate or not.

[Fiend]

Kinda damn cool sequences that Keenus found really.

I do think it's fair that Kevin has repeated the groove but not The Groove. Regardless of the nature of the top it's still the line. Even if it's a bit eliminate and avoidable, it's the route as Keenus climbed it, and his best effort to fully follow the grooveline.

I.e. exactly the same as Dave Mac with Rhapsody which I think Keenus dismissed

[Pantontino]

Good point re Rhapsody/eliminates (quite ironic given the turn of events here) - surely 'the line' is the line of least resistance. If the top is an avoidable eliminate then who can blame the guy for taking the most natural route to the top.

[T_B]

I don't precisely know what sequence Bentley was trying but he was trying it post-Equilibrium at a time when he had recently bouldered Font 8a and has said that he found he couldn't do the deadpoint move to the break. I seem to remember it was this move that James talked about being the hardest? Rather than the one handed slap? This is kind of conjecture from vague conversations with Neil, but my understanding was that he could do the move setting up into the move to the break. So.... anyway. Kevin is obviously a super talented, tenacious and apparently pretty modest (honest) climber. But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.

[dave]

theres always a fine line (pun) between the "line" and the "line of least resistance". The bottom section of the groove could be just seen as the line of most resitance, being the hardest moves on the wall. you could say pearson's line was flawed since the top is avoidable, you could say jorgson's line was flawed because it'd have been easier to climb the gully and do fern hill normally! you could say pearson's line was flawed becauseit saught unnecessary difficulty in the upper half, but then again you could say the new version was unballanced.

the fact is the wall gives a strong line lower down which fades the higher you go. you've got to get to the top somehow, you can't just tap your hand and drop off. you either stick to a line and get the blinkers out, or call it a day and quest offward. both probably have equal aesthetic merit.

I agree with tom, the sniding about pearson is pretty daft.

[gangle]

"and pedigree for bouldering too (8b flashes?)"

Great Shark Hunt Downgraded to 8a
Schule des Lebens Downgraded to 8a
Ganymede Takeover considered now by many to be 7c+/8a!!!!

[dave]

must be shit if he can only flash 8as then.

[Pantontino]

But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.

Fair play, James did an amazing first ascent of a LGP, but surely you are not suggesting that the grade cannot be discussed? I don't see how that can be construed as snidey, it's an interesting route with an interesting history, and people want to talk about it. Simple as that.

[T_B]

But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.

Fair play, James did an amazing first ascent of a LGP, but surely you are not suggesting that the grade cannot be discussed? I don't see how that can be construed as snidey, it's an interesting route with an interesting history, and people want to talk about it. Simple as that.

I guess I was responding to Gangle's initial post.

[magpie]

I don't see how that can be construed as snidey

Some of it is just snidey though.  Fair enough people want to talk about and discuss the fact that maybe the grade is different to what was first suggested but comments like:

So pearson has potentially overgraded yet another route, does anyone see a pattern developing???

aren't about the possibility of the grade being different, that's just having a dig the way I read it.

Edit:  Too slow 

[moose]

James didn't grade those boulder problems did he? They were down-graded subsequent to his ascents and any kudos he gained was in line with the opinion of the time.

Seems strange to me how keen everyone is to lambast Pearson - tall poppy syndrome?  Especially as the evidence for the proscecution is the hesitantly proffered opinions of a pair of talented outsiders with little experience of the UK grading system.  I would have thought more people would be willing to give James the benefit of the doubt.  He has been suffused with the vagueries of our grading methods for his entire climbing life and has a track record of repeating hard, independantly-graded, bench-mark routes. 

At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading?  Particularly with the "modifying" role that danger contributes to overall seriousness.  My impression is that, in their enthusiam and confidence, they underestimate just how scared the natives are of getting hurt!  Haven't they down-graded virtually everything they've climbed - New Statesman the only exception?  To me this indicates that they are committing a systematic error, either that or almost every standard-setting hard climber in Britain for the last 20 years has been wrong.

[Pantontino]

I just took the "all this snidey shit" comment to indicate several posts/people, and thus include Ru and NCB's entirely reasonable comments.

Back to the meat of the discussion: Neil Foster made an interesting post on UKC.:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=330091 if you want the full context, or:

"In reply to teddy:
> (In reply to Graham Hoey)
>
> Interesting, it depends on what you mean by an 'easier line' that Kevin took. It seems to be totally eliminate the way the FA did it so I would call the way Kevin did it the true line

Come on, Ted. That really is nonsense!

At the top of the groove section on The Groove is a horizontal break, traversed by Fernhill Indirect and Trick or Treat, John Allen's super reverse girdle.

Above this break, twin cracks lead straight up into a disappearing groove just right of the arete. I always felt this was the natural line as one feature is effectively a continuation of the other, and I was pleased that James apparently agreed (though I hadn't talked to him before he put up the route).

Avoiding this continuation involves hand traversing all the way across to the Ferhill crux, then all the way back left again on Ferhill (as Fernhill direct). That is great fun, but hardly "The True Line".

Interestingly both ascentionists of the groove (as opposed to The Groove) eschewed my proposed finish, straight out across the middle of the roof between Fernhill and Boothill. This is definitely on (I once went to Cratcliffe with John Allen when he spent much of the day hanging on an ab rope looking at this) and yes, it would be eliminate, but it would also make for a powerful and contrasting integrale.

That would just leave the final challenge on this particular wall:-

Thin seam right of the groove on The Groove (no gear), move right and layback up short flake above the Fernhill crux (perfect gear), then desperate thin moves up the wall to the wide crack on Renaissance.

Anyone fancy a challenge?

Neil"

[Fiend]

Thin seam right of the groove on The Groove (no gear), move right and layback up short flake above the Fernhill crux (perfect gear), then desperate thin moves up the wall to the wide crack on Renaissance.

That seam/ripple has always been obvious as the other LGP there 

[Will Hunt]

James didn't grade those boulder problems did he? They were down-graded subsequent to his ascents and any kudos he gained was in line with the opinion of the time.

Seems strange to me how keen everyone is to lambast Pearson - tall poppy syndrome?  Especially as the evidence for the proscecution is the hesitantly proffered opinions of a pair of talented outsiders with little experience of the UK grading system.  I would have thought more people would be willing to give James the benefit of the doubt.  He has been suffused with the vagueries of our grading methods for his entire climbing life and has a track record of repeating hard, independantly-graded, bench-mark routes. 

At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading?  Particularly with the "modifying" role that danger contributes to overall seriousness.  My impression is that, in their enthusiam and confidence, they underestimate just how scared the natives are of getting hurt!  Haven't they down-graded virtually everything they've climbed - New Statesman the only exception?  To me this indicates that they are committing a systematic error, either that or almost every standard-setting hard climber in Britain for the last 20 years has been wrong.

 

You have spoken much sense here, Moose. The visitors don't really seem to get the idea of the grading system. Until they met the Keen One (let us not forget his track record and how waddy he is  People really should be thinking about how he could crush them to dust with a mere thought before they spray about him) they thought that the system was closed and that E10 was the upper limit! And now he's talking about not understanding how the technical grade affects the adjectival. God! Who are the people who have been giving them the tour?! Could you please sit them down and explain how it works?!

And FFS take them to Wales or the Lakes or Scotland or SOMEWHERE other than fucking grit. Its not all the country has to offer you know. Perhaps they might be tested there.

[Fiend]

Yeah cloggy will be in great nick at the mo.

[dave]

top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.

[Oli]

God! Who are the people who have been giving them the tour?! Could you please sit them down and explain how it works?!

One of the people they've been staying with has, in my opinion, a bit of a tendency to undergrade most stuff...  

[T_B]

top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.

The funny thing was I remember speaking to my folks in the Lakes that week when it was p*ssing down here. And they were like "well the weather has been stunning up here all week". Oops 

[IanP]

You have spoken much sense here, Moose. The visitors don't really seem to get the idea of the grading system. Until they met the Keen One (let us not forget his track record and how waddy he is   People really should be thinking about how he could crush them to dust with a mere thought before they spray about him) they thought that the system was closed and that E10 was the upper limit!

But from there perspective it might seem very sensible that E10 was basically the upper limit - since it means an equivalent 'challenge' to 9a / 9a+ then claiming anything harder would mean we're talking about routes at the very top of the tree on a world scale.

I've brought this up before but never really received an explaination - if E11 and E12 exists then as far as I can see either such routes are the very hardest in the world or the definition of E grades has been changed at the upper end of the scale.  

This doesn't need to take away from the great efforts of the likes of Macleod / Pearson completing some of the lgp's around as well as making excellent repeats of existing routes.  

[dave]

top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.

The funny thing was I remember speaking to my folks in the Lakes that week when it was p*ssing down here. And they were like "well the weather has been stunning up here all week". Oops 

what about the other 51 weeks of the year?