[Fiend]

Agreed, and what the hell can you do?? How many keen gritstone climbers or keen climbers full stop haven't seen hard grit??

[Kingy]

 

Just because a true onsight of Gaia is now likely to never happen does not mean that we should bend the rules to make a flash into an onsight. If the dodgy onsights of the past were flashes then so be it.... declare all beta that Joe Brown etc had available in the 50's, warts and all. The term on-sight is self explanatory, clue is in the name  . I don't believe the term somehow magically became more 'pure' in the last 20 years.  

The issue of climbing videos invalidating onsights is a very valid one unfortunately and its not likely to go away in the near future. I don't think there is anything to prevent it really.

Well done to Alex on an incredible piece of climbing  

[AndiT]

The fact it's a flash rather than an onsight takes nothing away from what is a totally brilliant achievement.

Absolutely. This is the most important thing.




But, when it comes to the point where if I've seen a clip or photo of someone climbing something, or if we take it a step further and I visit a crag on a day when a route is chalked up, is that going to forever invalidate my chance of an on-sight.

It seems to me like an on-sight has just become the whitest shade of the spectrum of a flash.

[Kingy]

I don't think the presence of chalk invalidates an onsight. Sure it may be harder without it but the vast majority of sport routes onsighted worldwide had chalk on them and practically nobody said they were flashes - look at Paxti, Ramon and Ondra's onsights for a start. Its all about consensus in my view. If only 5% of ppl think chalk invalidates an onsight then I would go with the other 95% who think it doesn't matter.

Regarding seeing photos of a climb and then claiming an onsight, this is also slightly dodgy to the purist but again its of much less help than seeing an actual video. I personally would say that having seen a handful of photos of a climb would not invalidate an onsight but obviously if you have seen a full-on montage breaking down every move then thats a different story... Montage..wasn't there a song about that   

[nik at work]

Whilst I agree that in the strictest sense it isn't an "onsight" it is about as close as it's possible to get.
It is worth bearing in mind that onsight is an incredibly specific term (one which is possibly not truly satisfied by numerous historical onsights?) whereas a flash can cover a relatively broad spectrum of stylistic degeneration (watching a video through to studying several friend ascents coupled with detailed gear and technique information etc). As such it is valuable that the information as to why this is a flash as opposed to an onsight is provided. Obviously this ascent is right at the very top-end of the flash spectrum and as near as makes no odds (in my opinion) to a true onsight.

Had it "just" been reported as a flash of Gaia I would have placed it as a top-end performance in the list of stylish grit ascents I know of, with the valuable extra information I realise it is actually top achievement. I am totally impressed (still no sense of shame though?)

NOTE: I'm not saying that onsight should be a wider term, just that any one word summary of any style of ascent is going to be insufficient to convey exactly the nature of the ascent. The more information the clearer the picture.

[slackline]

Montage..wasn't there a song about that    

Dave's your man to ask about montages

[IanP]

Whilst I agree that in the strictest sense it isn't an "onsight" it is about as close as it's possible to get.
It is worth bearing in mind that onsight is an incredibly specific term (one which is possibly not truly satisfied by numerous historical onsights?) whereas a flash can cover a relatively broad spectrum of stylistic degeneration (watching a video through to studying several friend ascents coupled with detailed gear and technique information etc). As such it is valuable that the information as to why this is a flash as opposed to an onsight is provided. Obviously this ascent is right at the very top-end of the flash spectrum and as near as makes no odds (in my opinion) to a true onsight.

   We shouldn't let terminology get in the way of accepting this as one of the most significant (and I guess long awaited) recent ascents on grit.  These guys can really climb!

[Bonjoy]

I've had an idea...
Onsight = flash without fore knowledge
Staffordshire Onsight = flash after watching the video 
Flash = flash with fore knowledge

Problem solved 

[Nigel]

Staffordshire Onsight = flash after watching the video 

Yeah, you could abbreviate it to "Staff On", which has the added benefit of being rude:

"Wow you should have seen him go; what an impressive Staff On....."

etc.

[MattH]

Incredible effort from Alex. As others have said, hope the weather lifts again before they go, and more importantly, that they and others come again.

This debate poses one interesting question: if the videoing of an ascent means that anybody who sees it on film can never on-sight it, then what is the point of grading a route for a hypothetical on-sight that can never happen for the vast majority of climbers?

Check out http://www.shaff.co.uk/news/40/the-great-british-grade-debate-supported-by-the-bmc

MattH

[Kingy]

This debate poses one interesting question: if the videoing of an ascent means that anybody who sees it on film can never on-sight it, then what is the point of grading a route for a hypothetical on-sight that can never happen for the vast majority of climbers?

There is no point moving the goalposts just because a few videos came along. Vids come and vids go, the challenge will always be there for the next generation of climbers.

[nik at work]

Just to clarify I don't think that there is a problem that needs solving, god knows we don't need any more style labels. Just making the (rather obvious) point that extra information beyond a simple one-word definition can be useful in deciding just how impressive an ascent has been made. And in this case it is very impressive.

P.S. I am not completely humourless and I do realise you're joshing Bonjoy. And if we do need an extra label I can't think of a better name than a Staff On...

[Jaspersharpe]

First of all this is an amazing effort. Secondly it is a flash not an onsight. There is no grey area, the lad himself has taken the flash end of.

It's true that it's unlikely Gaia will ever get a true onsight until such an ascent isn't newsworthy anyway. I know I blew the onsight when I saw Stone Monkey at about 12 years old and as it's featured in two or three major climbing films since and is all over the internet it would be very difficult not to have seen some beta. Whether that beta is helpful to you or not is something only you can know but definitions are definitions and that's just how it is.

An amazing effort, but you draw the line when you know that you had beta. If Alex says he saw the film and knew what was coming to some extent, then it's a flash. That's the definition, chalk or not. It's something only Alex can call, not anyone else.

Exactly.

And Andi, chalk?! What are you on about? When has a route being chalked ever invalidated an onsight ascent?

And nik - until you accept that your onsight of an E8 was valid then you should shut it.   

[BB]

I'm full of admiration.

Regardless of the type of ascent, he did it in better style than anyone before him and that has to be applauded.

Waddage du.

[T_B]

This debate poses one interesting question: if the videoing of an ascent means that anybody who sees it on film can never on-sight it, then what is the point of grading a route for a hypothetical on-sight that can never happen for the vast majority of climbers?

Cos there will be people who purposefully don't watch the vids in case you get 'bad beta' as much as 'blowing the on sight'. I never watched Katherine S on Balance it is (depsite writing a review of it for UKC) and have not seen the film On Sight. I've also belayed Sellers on New Dawn facing out from the rock. Sad, I know 

I doubt whether on Gaia having watched the three or four films which show it climbed, would make much difference. But there are plenty of routes out there with crucial or 'trick' moves on them, where having watched a film or even seen a montage of piccies (check out Lucy Creamer's site if you wanna blow your on-sight of Janus - I did), would help you out.

[Fiend]

I never watched Katherine S on Balance it is (depsite writing a review of it for UKC)

Brilliant, quality journalism lives on

Good debate, good views.

[Bonjoy]

This debate poses one interesting question: if the videoing of an ascent means that anybody who sees it on film can never on-sight it, then what is the point of grading a route for a hypothetical on-sight that can never happen for the vast majority of climbers?

I've asked the same question before and surprisingly there is a sensible answer. A true onsight is a clearly definable base level/reference point. If you didn't grade for a clearly definable base point, what would you grade for instead? You'd be stuck with a situation where people graded for the way they did a route, in which case the grade would be meaningless without the information on how they approached the route.

[Mike Lee]

For me, there a 2 types of flashes, one where you have "common knowledge" and one where you delay you're attempt at a route to gather more beta or make an effort to get more beta. I know this could mean the same amount of beta in both cases - but there is a difference in mindset between the two which I think is important.

[Adam Lincoln]

For me, there a 2 types of flashes, one where you have "common knowledge" and one where you delay you're attempt at a route to gather more beta or make an effort to get more beta. I know this could mean the same amount of beta in both cases - but there is a difference in mindset between the two which I think is important.

I think that's hit the nail on the head.

[stevie haston]

hello good effort, nice flash etc. Can I say about time with out people stringing me up. To big up the guy, have any of you been on Moon light buttress in Zion, makes Gaie look like what it is, the idea of soloing Moon light is making me shiver right now, I would not solo Moonlight if you paid me alot of money, hard routes in zion feel scarey, shame you dont have some crack projects for the lad. Good on those yanks. Stevie

[Kim]

For me, there a 2 types of flashes, one where you have "common knowledge" and one where you delay you're attempt at a route to gather more beta or make an effort to get more beta. I know this could mean the same amount of beta in both cases - but there is a difference in mindset between the two which I think is important.

"Beta onsight" anyone?  

 

[Adam Lincoln]

shame you dont have some crack projects for the lad. Good on those yanks. Stevie

Someone point him at Rays Roof. Flash? What about that crack project at Ramshaw, is it really a full on crack?

[T_B]

What about that crack project at Ramshaw, is it really a full on crack?

To my mind, one of the best unclimbed lines left. Would be interesting to see an American crack specialist on that one, as I'm sure you could full on jam it after just a couple of slapity slaps. Might need to tape a no 1. Friend to your ear tho.

[Adam Lincoln]

Footage from climbing works blog here. Filmed by Sam.
http://climbingworks.blogspot.com/2008/11/gia-e8-6c-on-sight-by-alex-honnold.html

[Fiend]

Smallest video EVER - someone vimeo that shit yo!

All about the hesitancy, love it.