[Paul B]

Basically this board doesn’t know what it wants to be. For me there are half a dozen circuits in the facility so why do we need loads of them on the training board. Last year it was fun, new etc but now it needs rejuvenating.

Spot on Andy, I've also found it to be slightly frustrating that upon each permuation of the board things get messed around. The last effort was meant to be fixed problems so I worked a load of my own out after stagnating on the set problems. Some of these holds were then removed to de-clutter the wall breaking the vast majority of them. If its a fixed board it HAS to be fixed. That means that twisting a hold for a team training day etc. is an offence worthy of being castrated.

I shall speak with Sam as to what we shall do, as this board is his baby really. Personally, my temptation would be to strip the whole board, then reset 3 circuits and fill the rest of the board with colour coded up problems from hard to the living end, and to reset once a year to keep it fresh - the emphasis for everything being quality as well as sheer difficulty. Its true that the board is a small part of the overall wall area, and so we can maybe afford to make everything on it hard for the hardcore training types... As ever, we take everyones thoughts and ideas on board, so any more suggestions are always welcome. Within reason, of course.....

Hopefully this doesnt come across as rude:
Personally I think this is a very bad idea. Whilst I enjoy the problems you set at your wall (more so now than previously) I've always felt that the training style problems and top end problems that you offer have been the worst of the bunch. This happened in the woodie (MK 3) and it wasn't as good as the previous set up. Weird holds, trick moves etc. have absolutely zero value when training and to be honest there aren't that many problems that don't feature some kind of trickery or weirdness at your wall. I'd be really psyched if I was expecting a load of proper board style problems on which to get strong but frankly I can't see it turning out quite like that. Some hard problems were set on the comp wall when it was still green after previous moaning and they didn't get done because they were just plain daft. The top and bottom halves were easy but the middle had a move in it that clearly hadn't been done by anyone and was the living end x 2.
Now I always get accused of beating the school drum but its problems like that, that allow people to become strong and I haven't seen very many problems that offer that style of climbing since the works opened, one or two maybe but not many. Last time the board was reset I did offer to take anyone willing up the road to make my point.
Re-jigging the board is all well and good but at the end of the day I think its quite obvious that this board is in no mans land for good. Something else would make for a better training board. 30's are all well and good for the fingers but you can't climb like that all the time IMO especially not to that level of dirtiness
I've always felt like the works has never quite delivered on the training side of things compared to the initial plans which is a bit disapointing as it could have been perfection. Obviously, looking at the popularity of the place everything else is bang on.

Oh and if possible can you squeeze a couple more problems onto the comp wall, i'm sure there's room 

[Munkii]

this place is amazing!

saw it in a stone circles article in Climer and it is awesome!

  i know

[Andy Harris]

Jon, your idea of small feature fooholds is great but I wonder how that would work with the modern comp style of the works. Lots of heels, kneebars etc could make even easy problems impossible on little nubs. I guess it would be hard to set problems that work both ways? Then again if anyone can make that work it's Percy. Maybe a tester selection of nubs on 1 section of the boards to try the idea out.

I know where you're coming from Paul. Since the SChool closed we're (or at least thse of us lucky to be memebers) short of steep powerfull climbing. Whilst I like the dirt and am happy to mix it up with the foundry & outside etc Sheff is lacking some steep terrain.

So now it's up to Pecy, Sam et al and they know where to come for more honest feedbak or to test out some ideas. I'm off to Belize tomorrow for 3 weeks so try to have it sorted by the time I get back

[abarro81]

I don't think it would be a good idea to put cicuits on the wall to the left of the training board - it's not steep enough and people would hang on for ever. .

Sounds like perfect training for british trad onsighting to me  nice small crimps and pockets on 60 move circuits... Or make a new 50 degree board for the problems and have the current one all for circuits.. failing that, circuits of 7b, 7c, 8a, 8hard but no others sounds cool.

[carlisle slapper]

If the works want a premade board (3 ply sheets high) then both Ned and I will be happy to donate one of the most maticulous ones in england (symmetry with hand crafted hardwood holds) free of charge sometime around februaryish (or before if needs be), it'd have to be 50 degrees though or it'd be an insult.
Surely this could be done by incorporating it into the RH end of the current board? this way i might actually bother to leave my house to train somewhere on something designed to keep anyone climbing less than font 8c's feet on the ground, all the sheffield walls top out at font 8aish and it'd be nice to feel like someone's caring for cellar dwellers who count a good session as having done a single problem or even a single move.
Whats happening with the School boards? surely the works and the school boards should go together like a burger van and footy stadium?

why not blend 2 styles of training (sheffield boards & Works) and have a facility that you need never leave from font 4-8c surely this can only gain revenue? it'd certainly give alot of respect to the Works and probably produce alot more bouldering talent in the future as top end problems would be visible as soon as you walk in the door. If i could have seen someone crushing Pinky perky when i'd started bimbling around climbing walls then it'd have educated me as to what is actually possible one day if i really want to try that hard. rather than mucking about jumping between jugs and volumes, which despite being great fun is probably not the most efficient way of improving evening after evening.

just a silly idea anyway.

[abarro81]

I've often looked into the empty section of building just before the works in that courtyard as I've biked in.. how about turning it into a new uber-venue with this section having the old school boards, the ned/dan board and a some badass PE and stamina circuits. A bit more of a hassle than just taking some circuits off the current board though!

[Paul B]

Whats happening with the School boards? surely the works and the school boards should go together like a burger van and footy stadium?

They're effectively in storage. They struggle to stay in one piece with the limited traffic they had previously, if you put them in the works they'd just drop to bits.  You'd also have to re-write the guide as the current names aren't exactly what you'd call child friendly. 

If I had the luxury of a cellar or regular access to somewhere else then I wouldn't really mind but sheffield is now lacking somewhere to get streng and that seems wrong!

[nik at work]

Staying on a Climbing Works tip but going slightly away from the training board debates (worthy as they are) just a couple of quick points from a trip there yesterday:
1) I know that there is always space issues at a wall and there is a balance to be struck between having too few nicely spread out problems and too many crammed in problems, a balance that the Works seems to get pretty much right IMHO. However when creating a problem that involves jumping to a hold (not thinking of any yellow bum shaped hold in particular) please try and avoid putting other holds right next to the target hold but hidden from view from the take-off point. I've got a bruised nail right now, and that aint nice. Just a small point.

2) Now this is far more important. Can you please please please ensure that Percy's dog is always at the wall when I'm there with my son. The dog kept At Work Jnr entertained for ages and after she had departed the boy spent the entire rest of the day looking for her.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on these matters....

[benpritch]

i find the works good fun and the following points are very subjective.

1 comp wall problems are very 'tricky' and once learnt have limited training benefit. ie big moves to big holds and wierd heels. my knees don't like it.

2 grade jump - lots of 6 s and low 7s then top end 7 and 8. where are the mid 7s? more different style 8s. there are enough climbers in sheffield who climb at this standard to make it worthwhile.

3 massive holds. rock climbs in my experience have small holds. i know this is the comp wall and i guess you need to set some comp style problems on it but some steep hueco/rmnp/swizz/ style probs would be great.


all the best, ben

[Bonjoy]

Jon, your idea of small feature fooholds is great but I wonder how that would work with the modern comp style of the works. Lots of heels, kneebars etc could make even easy problems impossible on little nubs. I guess it would be hard to set problems that work both ways? Then again if anyone can make that work it's Percy. Maybe a tester selection of nubs on 1 section of the boards to try the idea out.

I appreciate that the nubbin idea could make the job of comp setting a fraction more tricky, but if done right and sparingly they shouldn't offer oportunities for kneebars/or heel-toes, just a few body tensiony footholds on the steepness is all that’s needed.

[Andy Harris]

Sorry Jon, wasn't making myself clear enough. My comment was about: with small features even the easy "comp style" problems could be impossible as this style vs say the foundry is very dependant on heels, kneebars etc which could be v.tricky on nubs. The problems would need to be a lot more basic for this to work in the main. Take for example pretty mcuh all the problems on the steeper right hand section. They are so leg, heel intensive I struggle to see them being doable on nubs. Even that black 7a up the middle would be next to impossible on little edges? BVut I guess some stuff would be possible / good training and that's what we're after.

Somehow the Foundry features work perfectly for pretty much any problem ever set on the wall to be climbed with or without them.

I guess though that they don't have to be perfect for everything but just a handful of problems on the circuit

[a dense loner]

whilst i agree that there should be more basic stuff, pulling on holds that resemble holds outside, and less heels and knee bars. i don't agree with peoples basic views that circuits on the training wall begin at 7b. this is a very elitist statement. i don't climb on these so couldn't care less what happens to the circuits. however i know quite a few people who, for reasons best known to them, enjoy this type of climbing and is the reason they visit.
i don't really think jons little resin idea would work well. firstly they'd have to scrub that mural off. i really do hope they're some sort of tax fiddle and you don't actually think they look good percy
just read andy's post, i had assumed the nubbins were for the training wall and not the comp wall

[dobbin]

This is excellent consultancy you're all providing and I imagine Percy to be hunched over his keyboard furiously, erm, anyway, I agree with almost all that has been said, and I think many useful comments have been made. I really like the comp wall, its a spectacle to behold, but climbing on it, and climbing outside have become mutually exclusive. It no longer bears any resemblance to outdoor climbing, but that is how comps are. So fair enough, if the comp wall is to be like comps then set like comps it should be, or at least partly... By all means keep creating the multi volumed madness - they are great fun to climb on, but they're not gonna get me up anything outside, so can we also have some good old fashioned basicness too?

As mentioned above, dirty holds and angle are two issues with the training board. I climbed on it yesterday, and I had fun - for about half an hour before dispairingly moving on to circuits as some of the problems were probably impossible due to boot rubber dirt. Linking me to another point -there is plenty of space for punters to get fit and do longer stamina problems - I dont think theres case for <7b circuits on the training wall. The painting of that wall doesnt help when you look down to spot a foot hold, I would get rid of it.

Finally, the reason I idolise the comp wall is because of the angle. But as I have said above, the climbing is too knacky for training benefit. You fall off through incompetence not weakness.

If you get Dan and Ned's board I will move in. I love that board.

[slackline]

Lots of people seem to dislike the murial of the training wall as it obfuscates smaller footholds.

This is often a problem when climbing outside (holds aren't clearly visible), so man up and get on with it,    (And don't use donkey ticks either)

[Bonjoy]

i don't really think jons little resin idea would work well. firstly they'd have to scrub that mural off....
just read andy's post, i had assumed the nubbins were for the training wall and not the comp wall

I wasn't suggesting resins footers on the training board, I was suggesting it for the steep bits of the comp wall. Why would it not work? It works at the Foundry and elsewhere. I'd have thought everyones a winner if the staff can set one problem and the user gets to climb it two to three different ways. They get to do less setting, we get to do more climbing.
Regards Andy's point about things being too hard on just features, i don't think this is true. Hard yes, but that's a good thing. If it ups the average grade of every problem by even a hefty three grades it would still put most problems within the range of some users. After all I've seen the likes of Nacho climb some of the hardest problems on the wall footless!

[Jaspersharpe]

I've never had a problem getting my feet on the holds because of the paint job. It's normally because there's some big purple bucket at shin height that I smash my leg on.

Linking me to another point -there is plenty of space for punters to get fit and do longer stamina problems - I dont think theres case for <7b circuits on the training wall.

To me this is the major problem. Easy stuff = high traffic = fucked holds. The majority of people climbing harder problems will brush the holds (and there wont be that many of them). Punters working a 7a circuit with any footholds will repeatedly scrabble their feet over anything in reach and boot rubber is far worse than chalk anyway.

There used to be circuits on the comp wall, surely there's room for an easy (7a ish) jug haul pump fest type thing on there that wouldn't cause as many issues? Keep it to a couple of harder circuits with specified footholds on the board and it would be ok I think.

[a dense loner]

all that tells us is the handholds are too big, i've seen a couple of people do them footless. muscles coming out of their ears yet less than no ability to climb outside. that doesn't include nacho, who is no punter.
i think resins would work better on the training board than the comp one. why are people comparing it to the foundry. the foundry has basic probs on the wave, which nubbins lend themselves to. plus the wave is more or less vertical in comparison.
with regards to less than 7b circuits there are more people to satisfy than the dozen or so people that would/do climb the up probs on the training board. the wall is there to make money, this is not made from a hardcore few. so jaspers shin can be sacrificed if a big purple jug in the way gets 20 more people coming back to do circuits

[Percy B]

Thanks folks - keep it coming, as it all helps...
The comp wall is specifically for comp style problems - its not supposed to have much relevance to outdoor climbing (as has ANY indoor climbing, anywhere, imho). Indoor climbing is just that, and outdoor climbing is a completely different fish. We gave up long ago trying to recreate rock inside, as it just doesn't work properly. I am not going to put loads of resin smears on the comp wall - the problems are set to be climbed as they are set (and this is always done with consideration for the short, as all of the problems in the Works are. In general, climbing is harder the smaller you are - period.) If you need other options, use some other holds. I agree that small resin smears are very good for training body-tension, but its a comp wall and not a training board so a load of extra footholds will just confuse the issue.
As regards our training board, all your comments have been taken in and will be acted upon (or ignored, if they aren't relevant). The obvious issue we have is that the board is not quite steep enough for the hardcore, (although most will have access to their own boards anyway, so whats the beef?). The paint job was done for free by some friends of ours, and the design was their idea. Love it or hate it, its part of the place and I would be very loathed to paint over it just so its easier for some people to see the footholds. A good clean up and reset of this board will improve this matter anyway. I have some ideas to improve matters and have also been attempting to free up a little space for a nice big 45, but that might have to wait until 2009.

Anyway, now the mysterious Devon Stunning North Leeds mega wall that nobody knows anything about is about to open we'll all be out of business by the end of the year, so we might just close up shop now ?!?!

[richdraws]

Its very dark in the Works, some areas particularly so. Its often difficult to distinguish hold colour. More lighting if possible please.

[dave]

The paint job was done for free by some friends of ours, and the design was their idea. Love it or hate it, its part of the place and I would be very loathed to paint over it just so its easier for some people to see the footholds.

I've just forked out over a £ton for a 3month membership - how much is rembrandt paying to keep the mural there? fuck all. Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"?

[jfw]

Pleeease don't make the easiest route style circuit 7b - i am rubbish and still want to work stamina on the circuits/routes board.

In the opening spiel of the works, they promised routes style problems from french 6a to 8a, its a big chop to make that 7b to 8a.

What about left two thirds of board used for routy circuity things, right third a selection of unmoving woody style holds (with a few changing small holded up problems in between)

[r-man]

It's true that the proportion of climbers who will climb/train at the highest level is small, but I wonder if the percentage of people who aspire to climb at that level is actually quite large. So while it might not seem to make financial sense to cater just for those who want to train in this way, the value of having something people can work towards is perhaps also in the number of people it appeals to, not just those who use it regularly.

Plus, by nuturing those performing at the top end, the works can do its bit to increase the country's standard of climbing...thus leading to exciting routes and problems getting done outside...thus leading to pictures and videos that inspire punters everywhere; images that make people want to go climb and crank...thus leading to more people down the works...

Anyway, the works is the biggest bouldering wall in the world. I'm sure they can squeeze in a 3 or 4 metre wide 50 degree board* and please everyone.

*Come on Percy, 50 not 45!

[Percy B]

New lights are ordered and should be installed in the next week or so. How's that for service?

The mural wasn't painted by Rembrant, Dave. How could you make such a mistake? Rembrandt took as his primary subjects the themes of portraiture, landscape and narrative painting. For the last, he was especially praised by his contemporaries, who extolled him as a masterful interpreter of biblical stories for his skill in representing emotions and attention to detail. He didn't do climbing walls, as far as I'm aware.

[dave]

hopefully there's a page on wikipedia about training boards that you can cut and paste too.

[benpritch]

Percy, I respect your decision to keep the comp wall a comp wall. But surely more people use this with a view to climbing outside than do comps, this is now my only local spot to climb steep stuff and a few concessions to a more traditional style of climb ing would be hugely appreciated.