[Jaspersharpe]

http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

[travs]

I couldn't agree more - why embarassed

You climb something, make the first ascent, and only have your own experiences to comment by. You compare to other routes / problems you have climbed and come up with what you think is an appropriate grade. Then someone comes along and gets a better sequence, his body make up fits the problem better, has better conditions and hey presto the route / problem is suddenly easier and gets downgraded. Then everyone looks at you thinks why did you overgrade it. The answer is you didn't, you graded it as you thought fit at that point in time and it is virtually inevitable that someone will come up with a more optimal sequence.

So no embarassment, nobody is wrong - it's just the way climbing goes.

[north_country_boy]

I think its more down to trends and fashions, I don't think Gritstone headpointing has really been at the forefront in the uk in the last few years like it was aroiund the time of Hard Grit, but there are so many more strong boulderers around capable of doing routes like the promise, but choose to concentrate on 'lowball' bouldering..........

KJ is obviously made for this highball malarky, i'm sure Ethan Pringle would rinse up the lot in super quick time too!

It may turn out to be embarassing though if they continue to repeat the most recent routes like the promise and potentially the groove so quicky after years as being 'Last Great Projects' tried by all the top UK Gritstoners.....

[Sloper]

My point about flashing the Ace was obviously a joke as I find it hard to get motivated by trivial problems with big holds.

The reference to FGTH was intended to indicate how over time the assessment of what's cutting edge and how its to be interpretted changes.  What we need to do is seek where possible to develop a settled consensus of how grades should change and whether there should be a single grade for a route.

For example if you solo a well protected E3 it doesn't count as an E5 tick.  If you find good gear on a previously bold E5 it should be down graded.  So if the gear is 'bomber' then the downgrade is valid but this doesn't change the validity of the original grade, both are in their time correct.

The tricky bit is whether you change the grade because of the sequence and or number of pads / spotters; in my view the answer to this should be no, for if you do you have to consider whether you're climbing the route or climbing the grade and if so which are you attributing the number to?  For example a friend of mine is 6' 8" with a +3 Ape index: he's a VS punter but has climbed a problem given Font 6c+ in the forest [as he was able to stand on and slap for the top] has he climbed 6c+ or has he climed a 6c+ rated boulder problem?

I don't think that the british grading system is broken, I just think that as with language and custom it's evolving rapidly and there will be evolutionary blind alleys that die out (probably in Yorkshire and Scotland).

I hope this makes sense, I've actually had to do some work today and its affected me gravely.

[Bonjoy]

Brilliant effort, the guy is a monster.

Regardless of whether it makes sense or not the status quo is that routes are graded for onsights with no pads. As KJ stated a grade applicable for using pads is it really a two grad downgrade?

[Danger]

Crag banter has always dictated that for every pad you use you lose an e-point.

This is a light hearted comment not a statement of fact, so dont shit the bed

[butters]

Regardless of whether it makes sense or not the status quo is that routes are graded for onsights with no pads. As KJ stated a grade applicable for using pads is it really a two grad downgrade?

Think that the grade was suggested more for the fact that the gear is apparently better than previously thought rather than the use of pads.

bluebrad

[cofe]

good effort. enjoying reading about all this action. really inspirational. technically speaking, isn't the slider still 'untested' as it hasn't been fallen on?

[Kingy]

Regarding bounce testing placements from the ground, something that Kevin touches upon in his blog, I think this is of limited value in simulating the forces on a dubious placement in a real fall. The placement may feel solid when you are hanging on it 3 inches off the ground but that is quite different to taking a 15 foot lob onto it....as a mate of mine found out to his cost recently.

[irish si]

I agree with hock and think its pretty embarrassing.

[SA Chris]

Then can you and / or Hock please tell us what the specific cause of your embarrrasment is?

[T_B]

I agree with hock and think its pretty embarrassing.

It could only be perceived as embarrassing by those who think climbing is some kind of competition.

[Fiend]

Wisdom from Travs and Jasper and NCB here.

[shark]

It could only be perceived as embarrassing by those who think climbing is some kind of competition.

[/quote]

Throw in a bit of national pride and putting people/routes on pedestals into the mix as well  

[Jim]

I think its a dig on the very limited funding given to any climbers in this country and not any climbers in particular

[Dave Flanagan]

It seems maybe that James missed the best sequence, I could see how he might be embarrassed about this - not the end of the world though. I don't see how it cast embarrassment on all british climbers, unless they all tried the route and also missed the sequence. This explains some of the disparity in the grade the rest is probably explained by the difference in opinion about the how good the single piece of gear is and no one will really know how good it is until its been falled on and even then. Didn't John Dunne do the FA of Parthian Shot with only 3 pieces of gear in the flake, was he of the opinion that it wouldn't hold a fall?

[T_B]

Didn't John Dunne do the FA of Parthian Shot with only 3 pieces of gear in the flake, was he of the opinion that it wouldn't hold a fall?

Yes, 20 years ago I believe

[Jim]

This makes intresting reading for those that haven't read it:

4. Kevin offers a proposed grade of E8, 13c/d, R based on his experience and comparisons with other routes he has climbed including Parthian Shot which I believe the team regarded as E9, 13b/c, R/X (I hope this is still the current feeling because China won’t let me onto peoples blogs to check if minds have been changed with hindsight). Am I alone in noticing the obvious discrepancy - before we even go into more detail?

If we do compare specifics of each route, Parthian Shot is 8a/+ with a fall (off a 6c crux move) into air onto wires in a flake that has been described as “bomber”. “Bomber” or not, the flake has held well over 50 falls which would suggest to me that it is trustworthy.

The Promise was given 8b+ but may be easier due to a new sequence being discovered? A fall from the 7a crux would be onto a single No.1 Ballnut in a tiny slot that has both held, and failed during body weight tests and has never taken a fall.

There are the facts and figures, make of them what you will.

[AndiT]

Of course it's not emabarrasing. These guys have come over here to do these things, they'll be psyched out of their minds over what they are doing not going home each night as laughing at 'the brits'.

I think it's brilliant and those who are embarrased are perhaps taking it all a bit too seriously.

[r-man]

More thoughts from Kevin

http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf

If I had to order the routes I have done so far in respect to difficulty, this is what it would look like:
• New Statesman, E9 5.13c/d R
• The Promise, E8 5.13c/d R
• Parthian Shot, E8 5.13b/c R

Amazing ticklist. What next...? The Groove?

[grimer]

That's interesting about New Statesman. Despite being a superb line, it doesn't get climbed much, and anybody who does it seems to be a good climber. Very different in difficulty to Johnny's routes at the time?

[Doylo]

New Statesman E9- go the Hurley! 

[Jaspersharpe]

That's a bloody big difference between the 8A sequence James did and the "V8 or V9" (so 7B+ ish) sequence KJ found. No wonder he found it to be E8 rather than E10, mats etc aside!

[Tom de Gay]

Statesman is nails if you don't have the Bentley-like span to reach the finger jug round the arete, with your r hand still on the flake. I remember hearing it had lost pebbles since the FA, but I suspect this is an excuse made by flailing aspirant ascentionists, and JD just crushed it (or he's a giant). I wouldn't argue with E9; you probably get half an E point for quip endurance - responding to the inevitable 'there's a path around the back, son' comments.

[T_B]

From KJ's blog:

I agree that each ascent has its own experience, and mine, relative to what else I have done, was E8. I’m
coming to realize and believe that each ascent, of each individual route, deserves its own E-grade. My
experience was E8. James’ experience was E10. A third ascensionist will have their own experience and so
on.

Amen!

Dunney has said in retrospect he thinks Statesman was the first E9.

Bentley reckons it's fine and ripe for a ground up above pads.

I've only had a short go in sh*te conditons, but the crux move around the arete is pretty steady if you're tall. Certainly not like the crux of a F8a+/F8b.