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Da News (Read 1516518 times)

Oldmanmatt

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tc

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#6501 Re: Da News
June 25, 2019, 02:35:54 pm
Thought I'd lighten the tone a little:

Is this my real wife?
Is this philandery?
Ahead by a landslide
No escape for society
Open your eyes
Look up all the lies and see:
I'm just a rich boy, no need for democracy
It’s an easy win, for old Bo Jo
A little high, on a little blow
Anyway the country goes, doesn't really matter to me, to me.

winhill

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#6502 Re: Da News
June 25, 2019, 06:14:58 pm
I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister
Great story here from Jeremy Vine about Boris, although I don't think it's endearing, it makes him look even less trustworthy.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/my-boris-story/

TobyD

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#6503 Re: Da News
June 25, 2019, 11:40:17 pm
I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister
Great story here from Jeremy Vine about Boris, although I don't think it's endearing, it makes him look even less trustworthy.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/my-boris-story/

I read that earlier in the week when Jonathan Freedland used it in his Guardian article.  I'm not sure if anyone really trusts him at all in the first place, he is clearly a pathological liar,  cheats on his partners, doesn't appear to know how many children he has, has little no political conviction,  only personal ambition... just for a start. 

TobyD

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#6504 Re: Da News
June 25, 2019, 11:42:11 pm
Thought I'd lighten the tone a little:

Is this my real wife?
Is this philandery?
Ahead by a landslide
No escape for society
Open your eyes
Look up all the lies and see:
I'm just a rich boy, no need for democracy
It’s an easy win, for old Bo Jo
A little high, on a little blow
Anyway the country goes, doesn't really matter to me, to me.

Very nice.  Is this what hes singing to Carrie Symonds in that delightful photograph that mysteriously was leaked to several newspapers?

TobyD

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#6505 Re: Da News
June 25, 2019, 11:48:33 pm
The biggest economic success of the last 100 or so years is clearly the USA

I think this is far from clear.

I did mean very generally,  I'm aware of the appalling inequality in the states I'm just suggesting that from the early twentieth century  its overtaken and vastly superceded the old European powers (I know that this is massively influenced by the two major wars and the collapse of colonial empires) but essentially it's done rather better than countries who tried far left government in the same period. 

joel182

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#6506 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 12:25:18 am
The biggest economic success of the last 100 or so years is clearly the USA

I think this is far from clear.

I did mean very generally,  I'm aware of the appalling inequality in the states I'm just suggesting that from the early twentieth century  its overtaken and vastly superceded the old European powers (I know that this is massively influenced by the two major wars and the collapse of colonial empires) but essentially it's done rather better than countries who tried far left government in the same period.

Such a massively complicated and fascinating question.

Which countries are you thinking of for the comparison?

andy popp

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#6507 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 02:43:41 am
The biggest economic success of the last 100 or so years is clearly the USA

I think this is far from clear.

I did mean very generally

I'm not sure even on raw growth data that this would be true (though I may be wrong about that, I'm working on hunches). Certainly, so far as I'm aware, it does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world. But I think going on a balanced basket of social and economic measures would throw the question even further into doubt. But I'm not convinced by the basic framing of this comparison either. Its not the case that the US has always been a free-market paradise. The US started the C20th as a highly protectionist nation, the New Deal moved the country considerably left, personal taxation was as high as 90% under Ike in the 50s, and there has long been massive government support (subsidy) for industry, for example through the military-industrial-university complex. Personally, I think the valid comparison is not with non-capitalist countries (which also tend not to be democracies either) but to other capitalist countries working on more social democratic lines.

jwi

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#6508 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 07:32:10 am
No one that has spent considerable time in both US and Norway (for example) can with a straight face say that US is on any measure the richer country.

TobyD

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#6509 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 09:23:33 am
No one that has spent considerable time in both US and Norway (for example) can with a straight face say that US is on any measure the richer country.
indeed not. Though they're so different that comparison is rather difficult. 

Andy P I don't disagree with anything you've said really either.  My original suggestion was that a hard left  economic agenda would be regressive.  Left leaning social democracy has worked extremely well in many countries.

TobyD

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#6510 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 09:29:34 am
On a different note,  I read this article:
 Britain is still ruled by a privately educated elite. Let’s end this culture of deference

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/25/britain-ruled-private-educated-people-culture-deference?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Which mentions a certain  BJ as an example.  Just a thought, but several  (most?) of the labour party top brass also went to private schools: Corbyn went to a private prep school,  Seamus Milne Winchester and Oxford....

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#6511 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 09:57:55 am
No one that has spent considerable time in both US and Norway (for example) can with a straight face say that US is on any measure the richer country.
indeed not. Though they're so different that comparison is rather difficult. 

US, the most successful economy in the world bar none, and so different from other economies that it cannot be compared with them, especially those pesky ones that are clearly more successful...

andy popp

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#6512 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 11:29:16 am
My original suggestion was that a hard left  economic agenda would be regressive.

Fair enough and possibly true - I just think a rather creaky claim about the US was not the right point from which to start that argument. Anyway, I feel I've already dragged this considerably off topic and will stop.

tc

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#6513 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 11:46:05 am
On a different note,  I read this article:
 Britain is still ruled by a privately educated elite. Let’s end this culture of deference

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/25/britain-ruled-private-educated-people-culture-deference?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Which mentions a certain  BJ as an example.  Just a thought, but several  (most?) of the labour party top brass also went to private schools: Corbyn went to a private prep school,  Seamus Milne Winchester and Oxford....

"The wealthy and elites are no more likely to be born stupid than the poor, however a wealthy upbringing compounds stupidity while a hard scrabble childhood dilutes it, if only for Darwinian reasons. This is why the elite need a prophylactic barrier of shitty state schools, to prevent clever kids from working-class postcodes ousting them from the Enclaves of Privilege". 'The Bone Clocks' by David Mitchell

Will Hunt

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#6514 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 01:35:46 pm
Without wanting to get into the rights and wrongs of private schooling and the impact that it has on society, I am always surprised at the amount of prejudice directed at privately educated people from those who would be rendered unconcious with indignation if analogous comments were made about their state educated peers.

This, for instance, is disgraceful:
Quote
Nevertheless, recruiters need to open their eyes to the potential downsides of candidates who are privately educated, and instead of looking at a woman’s date of birth or a person of colour’s surname and, despite it being illegal, tossing that CV into the wastepaper basket. “Oof,” they could say, “went to Eton. Might be a bit unimaginative, probably not very good at managing teams with women working on them, could be a bit blinkered by privilege.”


It's also surprising how many people seem to think that it must be some sort of plot that people who went to Eton or Harrow end up being politicians. It's like wondering why the army is full of Sandhurst graduates, or the NHS full of consultants who went to medical school, or trades full of people who went to technical colleges, or the National Symphony Orchestra full of people who went to music college.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't be taking steps to broaden diversity in politics, but if you take a load of politician's kids, send them to a school with a load of other politician's kids, and sign them all up to the very good debating society (which they're not ridiculed for joining), you probably shouldn't be surprised when they leave school with expectations (not necessarily even ambitions) of becoming politicians and the skills and connections to do it.

Nutty

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#6515 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 02:17:59 pm
It's also surprising how many people seem to think that it must be some sort of plot that people who went to Eton or Harrow end up being politicians. It's like wondering why the army is full of Sandhurst graduates, or the NHS full of consultants who went to medical school, or trades full of people who went to technical colleges, or the National Symphony Orchestra full of people who went to music college.

Not really the same is it Will? Plumbers having done a plumbing course isn't really analogous to the over-representation of a privileged few in the upper echelons of government.

And are you saying there's definitely no nepotism or old school ties involved in politicians' careers?

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#6516 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 02:32:35 pm
It's also surprising how many people seem to think that it must be some sort of plot that people who went to Eton or Harrow end up being politicians. It's like wondering why the army is full of Sandhurst graduates, or the NHS full of consultants who went to medical school, or trades full of people who went to technical colleges, or the National Symphony Orchestra full of people who went to music college.

Not really the same is it Will? Plumbers having done a plumbing course isn't really analogous to the over-representation of a privileged few in the upper echelons of government.

Exactly.  Plumbers aren't really put in charge of deciding whether or not to slash funding for schools, or reduce taxes on the wealthy etc.

Quote
And are you saying there's definitely no nepotism or old school ties involved in politicians' careers?

I think that's exactly what he's saying isn't it.

This is the point though, its called 'the establishment' for a reason, its been well established for centuries.

Will Hunt

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#6517 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 02:37:44 pm
I'm not going to get drawn into saying it's all acceptable and nothing should be done to redress the balance. The thing I take exception with is the prejudice (the article linked to implies that all private schools are alike and that they all produce similar individuals with similar character flaws) and the idea that political appointments from a particular school or family must be a result of corruption.

I'm absolutely confident that nepotism exists in the political elite. But nepotism is not very far away from inevitability and the more hysterical voices of the left never seek to differentiate between them. If somebody has grown up in a household where a parent is a politician (or whatever really) and it is regularly discussed around the proverbial or literal dinner table, their children will end up being instilled with plenty of knowledge and skills that prepare them for the same career, and most importantly the expecatation that that is something they could and should do. Oddly, you don't see many complaining about the positions of Hilary Benn, the Milibands, Seb Corbyn (also an Oxbridge grad) etc etc etc.

The issue should be focussed on how to broaden access to politics, not restrict it from those who already feel entitled to take part.

Nutty

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#6518 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 03:01:15 pm
The issue should be focussed on how to broaden access to politics, not restrict it from those who already feel entitled to take part.

Looking at Boris, we should definitely restrict it from those who feel so very entitled...

spidermonkey09

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#6519 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 05:05:38 pm

It's also surprising how many people seem to think that it must be some sort of plot that people who went to Eton or Harrow end up being politicians. It's like wondering why the army is full of Sandhurst graduates, or the NHS full of consultants who went to medical school, or trades full of people who went to technical colleges, or the National Symphony Orchestra full of people who went to music college.


I actually agree with the point you make about the Guardian piece, but the above doesn't follow to me. People object to there being so many people from Eton/Harrow/other similar schools in politics precisely because they don't seem to possess the skills required. That privilege and entitlement got them there is surely the natural conclusion to reach in the absence of any discernible skills (Johnson being the current example). By contrast, plumbers are skilled tradesmen, musicians can read a score and medical consultants are among the most highly educated people in the country. They earned their position. Too many people who go to Eton/Harrow and end up in public office haven't and are unfit to hold the post.

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#6520 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 06:42:25 pm
If you are born into families who are of a certain milieu, are then educated at school and uni with those who move in that milieu and then look to find your own path through it, you are already well-schooled, well-connected and well at ease there; no hidden barriers, false starts and bemusing cultural codes to act as barriers.

All perfectly normal, because the society of those with power is normal to you. There’s no great need for talk of nepotism in that context. And confidence, self-belief, a deep sense of belonging all allied to an education (both formal and cultural) which maximises your innate talents is a powerful boost to advancement. It’s a natural consequence of that upbringing. It’s not a bad thing- in fact it’s the exact opposite, it’s an excellent thing. The problem is that it is accessible to so few.

We shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking all independent schools are the same btw-  that’s as naive as saying the same thing about state schools would be.

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#6521 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 07:32:10 pm
Obviously those who are unfit for office should not be allowed to serve. That has nothing to do with their schooling though.

Incidentally, what does qualify someone to be a politician?

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#6522 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 07:37:11 pm
To genuinely represent the views and act in what you believe to be the best interests of your constituents?

tc

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#6523 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 08:04:08 pm
For some, maybe. For others it's the desire to earn £80,000 a year plus expenses for a part time job.

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#6524 Re: Da News
June 26, 2019, 08:07:18 pm
I guess I answered what I think should qualify someone. I have no idea how you actually end up one though?

 

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