[Fultonius]

Who says the cores are all still contained? I'm hearing this morning (our time) that the fuel rods in reactor 4 at Fukushima are completely exposed.

As far as I'm aware, yes, the fuels rods were "exposed" i.e. they were no longer fully immersed in water - but the whole lot is still contained within the pressure vessel. I'm fairly sure they weren't exposed to the atmosphere which would be a monumental problem.

On a broader note, the earthquake was never the biggest problem, it was some distance off shore and all Japanese reactors can deal with them OK anyway. The problem is making sure back up cooling systems are safe from large tsunamis generated by off-shore quakes like the one on Friday (which are inevitable along much of the Japanese coast at some point.) In this regard the Japanese have made a basic error in not putting the back-up pumps on the same high ground as they put the reactors themselves.

Whether or not there was a fundamental design error, you have to draw the line somewhere when predicting risks.

They would have a design life of ~50 years and it was designed to be able to withstand an 8.2 quake. There are probably many other scenarios that could result in a core meltdown, but like I say, you have to draw the line somewhere!

I'm pretty sure they would have looked at the possibility of a tsunami happening and resulting in the present scenario, the they would have looked at the cost & effort of designing the plant to withstand that, they would have looked at the chances of that actually occuring in the 50 year life span and then thought - nah, it's really, really unlikely that an 8.9 quake would hit, simultaniously killing the external power supply and a tsunami flooding the backup generators, so we won't bother designing out that.

You may think that they should do everything to prevent any possibility of something like this happeneing. Unfortunately, the only way of doing that is by not building it in the first place.

Ultimately, the plant is designed to contain most of the radioactive material in the pressure vessel even if they have a full core meltdown. The only thing worth worrying about now is whether or not the reality lives up to the design...

[Duma]

As  I understand it, unit 4 was undergoing maintenance atthe time, and as such, the fuel rods were NOT in the RPV, but stored in cooling ponds, which there appears  to be a problem with. IE exposed to the atmosphere, ie BAD.

However they do seem to have got the power reconnected and sound pretty confident that they should be able to sort the water supply issues now.

RE. "the only way of doing that is by not building it in the first place": they could have built them on the west coast, otherwise known as "the coast that doesn't have one of the most  active plate boundaries on earth just offshore". To suggest that a large tsunami and the consequences is outside of the reasonable design criteria given the location is disengineous at best I'd say. (I'm  not anti nuclear power btw - this is going to be a fucking disaster for the climate, given the way policy throughout the west, and increasingly in the rotw, is driven by ill informed public opinion) Given their location I think it's well out of line that these plants were given license extensions (more modern nukes use the residual heat in the core after shutdown to power the neccessary cooling rather than relying on an external electricity source. Though wouldn't have made any diff to the issues with the cooling ponds)

[DaveC]

There's an old maxim about bad things happening in threes...earthquake/tsunami...nuclear crisis.....

Spotted this on a volcanology site:

Wednesday 16th March 2011
Mt Fuji Volcano, Japan
A large earthquake (mag 6.2) occurred under Mt Fuji Volcano, Japan on 15th March at 10:31 pm, local time. The epicentre was located 7 km SSW of the summit. The focus was shallow at 10 km. Mt Fuji last erupted in 1708 and is still considered an active volcano. A 2004 Japanese government simulation determined that in the worst-case scenario, a major eruption of Fuji would cause 2.5 trillion (yen) in economic damage.

[Falling Down]

Nutter!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12773427

[slackline]

Nutter!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12773427

 

[slackline]

RE. "the only way of doing that is by not building it in the first place": they could have built them on the west coast, otherwise known as "the coast that doesn't have one of the most  active plate boundaries on earth just offshore". To suggest that a large tsunami and the consequences is outside of the reasonable design criteria given the location is disengineous at best I'd say. (I'm  not anti nuclear power btw - this is going to be a fucking disaster for the climate, given the way policy throughout the west, and increasingly in the rotw, is driven by ill informed public opinion) Given their location I think it's well out of line that these plants were given license extensions (more modern nukes use the residual heat in the core after shutdown to power the neccessary cooling rather than relying on an external electricity source. Though wouldn't have made any diff to the issues with the cooling ponds)

Most of them are on the west coast...



(From a short article on Nuclear Risk)

[lagerstarfish]

The Sheffield Star's finest writer on form again

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/jo_davison_katie_price_and_gaddafi_tacky_plate_anyone_1_3193487

[Jaspersharpe]

In a culture where millions read mindless drivel about boring celebrities

...written without a hint of irony. 

[Fultonius]

Getting a bit  but, just a short one:

As  I understand it, unit 4 was undergoing maintenance atthe time, and as such, the fuel rods were NOT in the RPV, but stored in cooling ponds, which there appears  to be a problem with. IE exposed to the atmosphere, ie BAD.

It seems like the fuel rods maybe have been exposed in the Unit 4 colling pool. This is still not "exposed to the atmoshpere" - yes, there was a large increase in radiation and yes, there was a significant increase in the likelihood of the fuel melting and potentially destroying the cooling pond containment. But, the fuel is still in the colling pond structure.

To suggest that a large tsunami and the consequences is outside of the reasonable design criteria given the location is disengineous at best I'd say.

I'd agree with this - what I meant was there is always a line to be drawn. Is the line 8.2 quake & 15ft Tsunami, 8.9 Quake and 30ft Tsunami, 10.0 quake & 100ft Tsunami.  I'm not saying they drew the line in the correct place, or that the design was as robust as it could have been. But at some point, someone, somewhere has to make this decision. If you had to build a plant in that location where would you draw the line?

[the obvious answer is build it on the west coast, but that's a separate discussion]

Time will tell if investigators consider that the designers, operators and regulators took resonable precautions.

Given their location I think it's well out of line that these plants were given license extensions (more modern nukes use the residual heat in the core after shutdown to power the neccessary cooling rather than relying on an external electricity source. Though wouldn't have made any diff to the issues with the cooling ponds)

I'd definitely agree with this, but with the looming energy gap there's a huge pressure to keep the lights on and it's not surprising that more risks are taken (not that I agree with this - we should have been planning for the energy gap years ago...)

[Jaspersharpe]

This seems to be a pretty sensible "plan B". Which Osborne will completely ignore of course.

[slackline]

Kicking off in Libya hope people stay as safe as possible. 

[mrjonathanr]

This could go spectacularly wrong: Gadaffhi has not been in power for 4 decades by luck alone: being  shrewd, manipulative and amoral are the qualities we will see him use as he clings to power and it's going to be grim.

That said I do think there's a moral imperative here. Obviously moral imperatives aren't so 'imperative' to government when balanced against strategic interest: we're not going to be meddling in Bahrain or Yemen now are we?

Interesting to note that Rory Stewart (whose general thrust in previous discussions about Afghanistan seemed to be 'we're on a hiding to nothing/western policymakers don't know what they're talking about') supports the action:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2011-03-17a.494.0&m=40477#g544.1

Then again, as a Tory MP he does have a motive for supporting the party line.

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

This could go spectacularly wrong:

 No fucking shit!

(GPWM, btw)

[slackline]

Pretty fucking disgusting.

[Jaspersharpe]

At the other end of the spectrum...... Bret Easton Ellis' take on the Charlie Sheen circus.

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

The greatest alumnus from the BBC''s  charm school strikes again

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/entertainment/a/-/entertainment/9012042/clarkson-blows-a-gasket/

And again

http://www.metro.co.uk/tv/858587-jeremy-clarkson-tells-top-gear-fans-chuck-yeager-was-the-biggest-w-er

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

Muslamic-tastic!

 

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

It's that man again!

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/181437/Jeremy-Clarkson-ranting-down-under


(Warning.Crappy advertising vie-doh with sound embedded in page)

[Fultonius]

Muslamic-tastic!

Holy shit do people like that actually exist???

You couldn't make it up 

[ducko]

Muslamic-tastic!

 

EEEE-R lad!
da only fing worse dan dem moozlimistis is them goffs!

this man clearly never went/failed at his education, i would have thought they would have got someone with a bit more brain power to talk..

[Baldy]

this man clearly never went/failed at his education, i would have thought they would have got someone with a bit more brain power to talk..

I'd imagine that was the point the interviewer was trying to make...
No doubt there was a well versed and fluent ringleader hanging around, but that wouldn't have been nearly as amusing.

[Jaspersharpe]

No doubt there was a well versed and fluent ringleader hanging around

This being the EDL, I very much doubt that there was. 

[Fultonius]

New Engineering Jobs near Glasgow

The ~100 redundancies 2 months ago weren;t so well publicised...

[mrjonathanr]

Muslamic-tastic!

 I would have thought they would have got someone with a bit more brain power to talk..

He may well have been the pick of the bunch. We should be grateful: Muslamic is a word to cherish. On the downside, if that performance is anything to go by, I doubt we'll be reading it in Hansard any time soon.

If you actually listen to what his -incoherently and maybe drunkenly expressed- concerns really are, they might be worth addressing: changing multi-cultural social composition and anxieties about Sharia law. Otherwise they just remain an mistrustful anxiety in some, a opportunity to exploit for the far right in others.

[Fultonius]

An interesting perspective on the recent goings-on in Japan