[petejh]

To be fair to the scumbag tories this is surely a reflection on how chronically fucked the economic system was/is - I fail to understand how scumsucking labour would have done any better shifting the deficit with their policies. You may as well argue over who's most to blame for obesity (fat cunts, obviously).

[Oldmanmatt]

Sloper,
Come on!

Thatcher, for all her faults, had dragged the country out of the crap that was the 70's (which I remember well, despite being a kid). That was still fresh in people's minds in 92. The ten year anniversary of the Falklands conflict didn't hurt either. Many people had only just closed on their half price council house.

Then and now.

A world apart.

[tomtom]

To be fair to the scumbag tories this is surely a reflection on how chronically fucked the economic system was/is - I fail to understand how scumsucking labour would have done any better shifting the deficit with their policies. You may as well argue over who's most to blame for obesity (fat cunts, obviously).

I disagree.

Yes the fundamentals are/were fucking shit. But stealth privatisation of NHS, full privatisation of probation service, 9k student loans.. Unemployment down because 1m are now 'self employed' (on a benefit a bit less than dole) = massively reduced tax returns despite dropping unemployment. Bedroom tax, disabled reassessment scandal, punitive measures for not seeking a job hard enough, ridiculous and failed migration targets.. U turns on renewable energy, farce over badger culls and flood management. Destruction of the RDA's (that help generate growth) and swingeing cuts on local councils.. Gove and his destruction of school morale, free/faith schools and the privatisation of free public education via the academy system. Botched deals for future nuclear power, a pair of overpriced aircraft carriers (with no planes until 2022). Oh and Trident - clinging to our last vestiges of being a colonial power (France is just as bad).

Much of this would NOT have happened under a different government (some might but most wouldn't) and I very much doubt whether all the above has saved the nation much at all.

That aside I loathe the way the Torys have polarised debates. Scrounges vs Strivers, the migration debate - it turns the population into those who have or have not, those that can or can not. Turns neighbour against neighbour, Van man against pole etc.. Bastards. Fucking bastards.

And this pit of gloom and anger provides the melting pot for scum like UKIP.

[Oldmanmatt]

To be fair to the scumbag tories this is surely a reflection on how chronically fucked the economic system was/is - I fail to understand how scumsucking labour would have done any better shifting the deficit with their policies. You may as well argue over who's most to blame for obesity (fat cunts, obviously).

I disagree.

Yes the fundamentals are/were fucking shit. But stealth privatisation of NHS, full privatisation of probation service, 9k student loans.. Unemployment down because 1m are now 'self employed' (on a benefit a bit less than dole) = massively reduced tax returns despite dropping unemployment. Bedroom tax, disabled reassessment scandal, punitive measures for not seeking a job hard enough, ridiculous and failed migration targets.. U turns on renewable energy, farce over badger culls and flood management. Destruction of the RDA's (that help generate growth) and swingeing cuts on local councils.. Gove and his destruction of school morale, free/faith schools and the privatisation of free public education via the academy system. Botched deals for future nuclear power, a pair of overpriced aircraft carriers (with no planes until 2022). Oh and Trident - clinging to our last vestiges of being a colonial power (France is just as bad).

Much of this would NOT have happened under a different government (some might but most wouldn't) and I very much doubt whether all the above has saved the nation much at all.

That aside I loathe the way the Torys have polarised debates. Scrounges vs Strivers, the migration debate - it turns the population into those who have or have not, those that can or can not. Turns neighbour against neighbour, Van man against pole etc.. Bastards. Fucking bastards.

And this pit of gloom and anger provides the melting pot for scum like UKIP.

What Tom said...


By previous standards, I should be a prime Tory supporter. Former Military, turned Chartered Engineer, turned entrepreneur/businessman etc.

But these last few years really stick in the craw. It's been a long, endless succession of "bash the weak", pander to the Sun Reader/Mail Reader's most bigoted, rancid, fetishes and blatant grabbing of public services, on the cheap, by cronies.

Would I want a labour govt?

No.

Not really.

But it's got to be better than this bunch of Hoorays and infinitely preferable to UKunts dire promises. 

[Sloper]

The economy has flatlined.

Debt has increased and the Torys have failed on their promise to remove the deficit. This is despite the largest and most rapid privatisation program the UK has ever seen.

I don't really want any of them to win, but I think an outright Tory govt would be a disaster for this country. A complete disaster.

The economy flat lining? Are you on drugs / taking the piss? The economy is growing strongly despite strong headwinds and has been since (from memory) 2013.

Unemployment is coming down far faster than expected.

Inflation is stable.

Ohh and the debt rising? You do what a deficit is don't you Tom?  Of course the gross debt will rise, it will rise even when we're in surplus for a while as we'll be paying interest on the debt.

The most rapid privatisation prog.?  Again a little historical fact might not go amis here, are you aware of Thatcher, or of the (part) privatisation of things like the Air Traffic COntrol Service under Labour?

Yes the deficit has not been eradicated as planned; mainly due to reduced tax take: would you have rather that Boy George, when tax receipts were lower than predicted cut even more 'savagely'?

In short, you're talking utter drivel.

[Sloper]

To be fair to the scumbag tories this is surely a reflection on how chronically fucked the economic system was/is - I fail to understand how scumsucking labour would have done any better shifting the deficit with their policies. You may as well argue over who's most to blame for obesity (fat cunts, obviously).

I disagree.

Yes the fundamentals are/were fucking shit. But stealth privatisation of NHS, full privatisation of probation service, 9k student loans.. Unemployment down because 1m are now 'self employed' (on a benefit a bit less than dole) = massively reduced tax returns despite dropping unemployment. Bedroom tax, disabled reassessment scandal, punitive measures for not seeking a job hard enough, ridiculous and failed migration targets.. U turns on renewable energy, farce over badger culls and flood management. Destruction of the RDA's (that help generate growth) and swingeing cuts on local councils.. Gove and his destruction of school morale, free/faith schools and the privatisation of free public education via the academy system. Botched deals for future nuclear power, a pair of overpriced aircraft carriers (with no planes until 2022). Oh and Trident - clinging to our last vestiges of being a colonial power (France is just as bad).

Much of this would NOT have happened under a different government (some might but most wouldn't) and I very much doubt whether all the above has saved the nation much at all.

That aside I loathe the way the Torys have polarised debates. Scrounges vs Strivers, the migration debate - it turns the population into those who have or have not, those that can or can not. Turns neighbour against neighbour, Van man against pole etc.. Bastards. Fucking bastards.

And this pit of gloom and anger provides the melting pot for scum like UKIP.

stealth privatisation of the NHS, (not that I agree but for the sake of argument let's say you're right) is the continuation of Labour policy and under the aegis of legislation enacted by Labour.

9k student fees? Yes, who introduced fees? Labour. Who commenced the review that led to the increase? Labour. (for the record I think fees are a very bad thing).

Privatisation of Probation (lunacy on stilts).

Bedroom tax, a thoroughly good thing in my view.

Employment, a very mixed bag but the recent stats show that most jobs are full time & etc.

Disabled work assessments, more Labour policy, Labour legislation and contracts signed by Labour, and your point is what?

Punative measures against those on the dole? Come off it.  Not even a starter for 10.

Emily Thornton tweet re Vanman, god I could go on, but I think I've said enough.

The rest of your post is just noise, like a toddler screaming because it's bedtime, I can understand you're upset but you do need to appreciate that your perspective is a little bit flawed.

But in any event, Labour would have done everything that the Tories have done ehh Bonjoy? 

[Jaspersharpe]

My point was that you suggested the autumn statement was a sure fire vote winner when the exact opposite has happened.

You were wrong. I found that amusing. That was all.

[Sloper]

Opinion polls are not votes.

[petejh]

To be fair to the scumbag tories this is surely a reflection on how chronically fucked the economic system was/is - I fail to understand how scumsucking labour would have done any better shifting the deficit with their policies. You may as well argue over who's most to blame for obesity (fat cunts, obviously).

I disagree.

Yes the fundamentals are/were fucking shit. But stealth privatisation of NHS, full privatisation of probation service, 9k student loans.. Unemployment down because 1m are now 'self employed' (on a benefit a bit less than dole) = massively reduced tax returns despite dropping unemployment. Bedroom tax, disabled reassessment scandal, punitive measures for not seeking a job hard enough, ridiculous and failed migration targets.. U turns on renewable energy, farce over badger culls and flood management. Destruction of the RDA's (that help generate growth) and swingeing cuts on local councils.. Gove and his destruction of school morale, free/faith schools and the privatisation of free public education via the academy system. Botched deals for future nuclear power, a pair of overpriced aircraft carriers (with no planes until 2022). Oh and Trident - clinging to our last vestiges of being a colonial power (France is just as bad).

Much of this would NOT have happened under a different government (some might but most wouldn't) and I very much doubt whether all the above has saved the nation much at all.

That aside I loathe the way the Torys have polarised debates. Scrounges vs Strivers, the migration debate - it turns the population into those who have or have not, those that can or can not. Turns neighbour against neighbour, Van man against pole etc.. Bastards. Fucking bastards.

And this pit of gloom and anger provides the melting pot for scum like UKIP.

TT, my point is that the deficit would be the deficit would be the deficit regardless of whichever tribe of bozos are in power. In the context of talking about reducing deficit/debt I don't give a shit about the rest of that ideological stuff you mention.
I just fail to believe that Labour have any magic powers that are going to make any significant difference cf. the tories when it comes to bailing out an ocean of debt with a small pump. They're not worth voting for, none of them, I'd vote for Brand in an instant and I think he's a idealist bellend.

[Sloper]

I do wish people would understand the difference between deficit and debt.

It's a bit like the difference between accelleration and velocity.

Imagine the debt in 2010 was Nil, but the deficit that year was £10Bn, (assuming for the exercise the interst rate is 5%)

In 2011 the debt is £10.5 Bn but the deficit was £7.5Bn,
In 2012 the debt is £18.9Bn and the deficit was £5Bn.
In 2013 the debt is £25Bn and the deficitit was £3Bn
In 2014 the debt will be £29.4Bn and the deficit is Nil
In 2015 the debt will be £30.9Bn

You cannot reduce the debt until the surplus is > the interest on the debt.

What is it about politics that turns otherwise educated and intelligent people into fucktards who will refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face and refuse to engage with the evidence?

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't know Sloper. Why can't you?😜

[slackline]

What is it about politics that turns otherwise educated and intelligent people into fucktards who will refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face and refuse to engage with the evidence?

I don't know, why don't you tell us given your self-aggrandising role as Oracle and ultimate authority on everything?

[Stubbs]

I heard a guy on R4 last week talking about how the UK govt could currently be borrowing at zero or negative interest rates. This sort of thing is incredibly hard to search for, has anyone read anything about this recently?

[lagerstarfish]

I'd like to borrow a fuckton of money at negative interest

[tomtom]

I'd like to borrow a fuckton of money at negative interest

Whats the present fuckton to fuckall exchange rate?

[Sloper]

I'd like to borrow a fuckton of money at negative interest

Whats the present fuckton to fuckall exchange rate?

In Roubles, about 60% less than it was a month ago.

[Sloper]

What is it about politics that turns otherwise educated and intelligent people into fucktards who will refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face and refuse to engage with the evidence?

I don't know, why don't you tell us given your self-aggrandising role as Oracle and ultimate authority on everything?

Ego, tribal allegiance and the discomfort caused by cognitive dissoance would be my proposition. (the proportions being variable from case to case)

[Stu Littlefair]

I do wish people would understand the difference between deficit and debt.

....

You cannot reduce the debt until the surplus is > the interest on the debt.

What is it about politics that turns otherwise educated and intelligent people into fucktards who will refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face and refuse to engage with the evidence?

Brilliant point slopes, except that many measurements of the deficit include interest payments on the debt. So by those measures, once the deficit goes, the debt starts to go down. It’s the 'primary budget deficit’ that has interest payments subtracted.

[tomtom]

I'd like to borrow a fuckton of money at negative interest

Whats the present fuckton to fuckall exchange rate?

In Roubles, about 60% less than it was a month ago.

I strongly suspect some of the major banks have been systematically manipulating the fuckton to fuckall situation (AKA FFS)...

[petejh]

I do wish people would understand the difference between deficit and debt.

I'm fully aware of the difference and how it works. Amazes me the assumptions made from reading between lines and seeing what you want to see.

[Sloper]

So why then the comment about the 'reducing debt/deficit' yesterday at 11:11:59? (although I note in other posts you do make reference solely to deficit so perhaps a loose post from you and an over reaction from me, I am absolutely stressed to eyeball popping stage at present).

You will see people like Tom (and he's regrettably in the majority) who criticise the government over rising debt when that is in inevitable consequence of a deficit.

This error is one of the things that makes mature and considered discussion of the politico-economic situation so difficult, as is obtaining recognition that the legislative foundation for many current government polices was laid during Labour's terms of office.

[lagerstarfish]

if we can prove ourselves to be a nation of thoroughly nice people, then perhaps the people we owe the national debt to will let us off having to pay it back?

having folk like Brand and Farage wandering around the place can only hinder this plan

[tomtom]

(I actually criticised the Torys for saying - nay promising that they would eradicate the deficit (not debt) when clearly they have not..)

[Sloper]

I do wish people would understand the difference between deficit and debt.

....

You cannot reduce the debt until the surplus is > the interest on the debt.

What is it about politics that turns otherwise educated and intelligent people into fucktards who will refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face and refuse to engage with the evidence?

Brilliant point slopes, except that many measurements of the deficit include interest payments on the debt. So by those measures, once the deficit goes, the debt starts to go down. It’s the 'primary budget deficit’ that has interest payments subtracted.

As deficit can be used to refer structural deficit, current account deficit, fractional deficit and probably a range of other meanings the best means of describing what you mean by the term is with a loose correspondent theory (which interestingly enough was the subject of in our time this morning) hence simple reference to deficit.

[Sloper]

(I actually criticised the Torys for saying - nay promising that they would eradicate the deficit (not debt) when clearly they have not..)

What you posted:

The economy has flatlined.

Debt has increased and the Torys have failed on their promise to remove the deficit. This is despite the largest and most rapid privatisation program the UK has ever seen.

I don't really want any of them to win, but I think an outright Tory govt would be a disaster for this country. A complete disaster.

Ends.

You will of course realise that saying 'we will return to surplus' is not something that is wholly within the grasp of the government, policy objectives even when expressed in the imperative do not take on a different class of certainty by virtue of the statement:  The policy objective was to erradicate the deficit in one terms vs Labour's "promise" to reduce the deficit by 50% in the term.

I don't think that this will come as news to you but not everything a politican says they'll do will come to pass: the distinction to be drawn as to whether they have delivered or not was whether it was in their gift so to do, or whether it was not.

So, if a PM with a whacking majority says 'we'll allow gay weddings' and they fail to find parliamentary time they've reneged on a promise if the say we promise to bring peace to Israel and Palestine' and the fail they have not reneged on their promise.