[mrjonathanr]

Interesting perspective (and author) on ISIS
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/chelsea-manning-isis-strategy

[Sloper]

Nice rant J. Have a wad.

I'm not that comfortable giving to help for heroes.. The victims deserve support - and I feel for them but there's just something a bit jingo-istic and tub thumping about it that just doesn't sit right with me. Poppy etc.. No problem.

Anyway - Millibland seems like a nice bloke - the text of his speech is great - but he's just dull and uninspiring to listen to. Afraid Cameron beats him on that front.

In an ideal world he'd have told Murdoch & the Sun to fuck off when he was elected (as should have Cameron, Clegg etc), however he was at the Murdoch's cocktail party within months of being elected as leader and has posed with / for the Sun on a number of occasions, so why withdraw now when the damage was so obvious and the timing so dangerous?

I too find HfH and the people who 'shout' their support in the way that they do rather distasteful, but I rather suspect that this si due to the fact that the stereotype of the HfH shouty type is a Red Top reading prole.

[Jaspersharpe]

Totally agree re Help For Heroes tomtom. Great cause but everything else about it is wrong. I stopped wearing a poppy a few years ago too. Still give money, don't like feeling obliged to show support for anything.

[rich d]

I feel similar about help for heroes, and don't give. To me joining the armed services is a choice and a job, there's no longer conscription, killing people for a living for whatever reason - isn't something I want to support.
I wear a Poppy for two reasons - goes down well with clients and in remembrance, but not celebration and glorification of wasted lives.

[a dense loner]

I didn't realise wearing a poppy meant you were celebrating or glorifying a wasted life. You learn something new every day

[Oldmanmatt]

I didn't realise wearing a poppy meant you were celebrating or glorifying a wasted life. You learn something new every day

Yes that always seemed an odd interpretation.

As for killing people for a living?


That is an overly simplistic view.

Like most service personnel, I spent far, far, more time; standing between people trying to kill other people. Often unable to use any kind of force.

The political decisions of recent Governments to use the services as some sort of Military Police to protect people and assets in foreign lands and often political/greed agendas; does not diminish the courage of those who volunteer to be the last resort.

Most operations since WW2 have been aimed at protecting a population from an aggressor, not domination.

The problem lies with politicians not bringing things to a close. That is how "liberator" becomes "occupier".

Don't punish the thin red line for the politicians greed.

[shark]

For example, there was a rash of "ethical" funds launched in the late 90s in Britain that shunned tobacco stocks and the like. Despite that, fifteen years later, adjusting for a few mergers, the big tobacco firms are still big in stock market terms.

IIRC the mark down for tobacco firms in the late 90's had less to do with the vagaries of investment fashion and more to do with the fear/threat of law suits of a huge $magnitude which turned out to be less devastating than feared

[Sloper]

I didn't realise wearing a poppy meant you were celebrating or glorifying a wasted life. You learn something new every day

Yes that always seemed an odd interpretation.

As for killing people for a living?


That is an overly simplistic view.

Like most service personnel, I spent far, far, more time; standing between people trying to kill other people. Often unable to use any kind of force.

The political decisions of recent Governments to use the services as some sort of Military Police to protect people and assets in foreign lands and often political/greed agendas; does not diminish the courage of those who volunteer to be the last resort.

Most operations since WW2 have been aimed at protecting a population from an aggressor, not domination.

The problem lies with politicians not bringing things to a close. That is how "liberator" becomes "occupier".

Don't punish the thin red line for the politicians greed.

Indeed, what's the old quote (from memory) 'gentle men sleep soundly in their bed because rough men stand willing to do violence on their behalf', Eric Blair

[SA Chris]

is the HFH bit worth seperataing out?

[lagerstarfish]

http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2014/7/Diageo-Great-Britain-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_270730.aspx#.VAWYgEhRYjU

[tomtom]

For me the poppy is to remember those who died - and the fund supports those affected by war on all sides. No celebration - just a little mark of respect - and to remind us not to go down such paths of war again (that we are about to watchingbthebnews...)

[Sloper]

Yes, if only to experiment and see how long it takes a half wit to find the thread via google and call us all commie faggots / traitors etc.

[Sloper]

For me the poppy is to remember those who died - and the fund supports those affected by war on all sides. No celebration - just a little mark of respect - and to remind us not to go down such paths of war again (that we are about to watchingbthebnews...)

My view is that we need to engage with ISIS/IS/ISIL and by enagge I mean close with, engage and kill.

[Sloper]

Was Hawala still in vogue?

[mrjonathanr]

http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2014/7/Diageo-Great-Britain-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_270730.aspx#.VAWYgEhRYjU

Was the complainant a Mr Starfish?

[mrjonathanr]

The lack of ambition to implement a two state solution above is a bit troubling.
As I see it, a one state solution is either going to create an apartheid state

The use of phrases such as 'apartheid' state, is again inappropriate language born from lazy ignorance or less pleasant reasons.  No one is doubting that there are many in Israel who are deeply prejudiced, but the state is not, the laws of Israel are not discriminatory: compared against say the situation in Greece, the Israeli legal settlement is a bastion of liberty.

Comparing the situation in Israel to SA in say 1985 is just silly (not as silly as Sam's description) and demeans the debate.

It's an interesting point. In a context where two races are so unequally juxtaposed valid to consider, so I think that's rather harsh.

It can be lazy, but I don't believe Will is being so. Internally in Israel I think there are strong inequalities but not on the scale of apartheid, nowhere near, so the comparison fails there.

Many would apply the term bantustan to the West Bank so the comparison seems valid to that degree.

Mahmoud Abbas makes the comparison, reported as accusing Israel of planning

ghettos for Palestinians on fragmented land, without borders and without sovereignty over its airspace, water and natural resources, which will be under the subjugation of the racist settlers and army of occupation, and at worst will be a most abhorrent form of apartheid.

However not even Pik Botha bombed civilian populations, the old, the young, the pregnant, the disabled, hospitals, UN refuges and schools, so the comparison breaks down there too, but in a manner in which Israel becomes something worse, more terrible, more wrong.

It's grim to turn round and face this, but the systematic manner in which this bombing has been carried out since 2006 elevates it to crimes against humanity as it is the repeated and inevitable consequence of government policy, not an unforeseen and unanticipated moment of tragedy.

[Sloper]

The inference which can be drawn from what you are saying (I am not suggesting this is your intent) is that Israel deliberately and as a matter of policy targeted babies, the disabled and so on.

Israel have launched an investigation into a number of specific events and whether you agree with the outcomes of trials / sentences have in the past prosecuted members of the IDF.

You say that even Pik Botha didn't bomb concentrated civilian populations, correct, but there are two distinct differences between the ANC and their military wing and Hamas, the military wing of the ANC weren't launching 100s of missiles towards Pretoria or Cape Town and the ANC's aim was not the destruction of the state of South Africa.

Israel has the right to defend itself. In waging war against the Hamas fighters there will always be collateral damage, and Israel (again whether you believe the spokesperson of the state) makes efforts to limit this.  The prosecution of this war is entirely separate to the internal political and legal system of the state.

The laws of Israel are explicitly non discriminatory, the laws of South Africa (prior to 1992 from memory) were explicitly discriminatory.

While there might be a tonnage of ordnance dropped / fired might be significant and targeted the phrase 'systematic' implies if not infers that this is not aimed at destroying military targets but part of a systematic degradation of the population of Gaza, which to be blunt, is total bollocks.

If Hamas stopped summarily executing people suspected of being spies and having gun battles with the rump of the PLO and generally allowing the rule of law to develop in Gaza then the chances for peace (in what ever form) would be massively increased.

Sadly there seems to be no signs of this.

[mrjonathanr]

'Systematic' because it's policy to engage in this way and the deaths of vulnerable civilians are unavoidable. They are not the primary targets, but that is no consolation nor defence.

Hamas, whose charter repeatedly calls for Jihad, are a problem. Rockets are a genuine threat and they are very willing to draw civilian casualties. They are guilty of very serious crimes too.

What appears to be happening is that Israel does not have an effective strategy to address Gaza and instead use of force escalates with every incursion. I view this approach as immoral, end of.

In the short term it works because the Israeli govt doesn't get displaced for policy failures and Palestinian capabilities are reduced.

Despite Abbas's words this week in the West Bank Fatah appear supine, as far as I understand it.  Until Gazans acquiesce too we will be locked into this pattern.  They won't though  because  living conditions are intolerable and behind every death lie even more people maimed physically and mentally, creating a deepening pool of hate.  Civilian deaths are a recruiting jamboree for extremists. This can only cycle downwards.  More despair, more combatants willing to die, ad infinitum.

Let's be clear: Israel is wronged in this conflict too. But Israel must change course.

Some rough stats  on Gaza, ( B'Tselem has more detail ) post Cast Lead (2008):

Israeli deaths:  80 (5 children)

Palestinian deaths: 4020 (908-991 children, depending on source).


Nearly 1000 children. In 6 years.   

That's not a small number of tragic events. 

It's the consequence of policy.

[mrjonathanr]

Sexting: a resigning offence??

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11125919/Conservative-minister-resigns-over-sex-scandal.html

I'd be very pleased to see Brooks (Stick-to-Knitting) Newmark resign and acknowledge that his patronising views/crass attempts to ward off 3rd sector criticism make him unsuited to his post.

But to resign for willy-waving by text in a case of entrapment??

[tomtom]

Makes it easier for him to join ukip now

[SA Chris]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5297606/MPs-expenses-Full-list-of-MPs-investigated-by-the-Telegraph.html

My favourite

Douglas Hogg included with his expenses claims the cost of having the moat cleared, piano tuned and stable lights fixed at his country manor house. He has agreed to repay £2,200 for the moat clearing

[Sloper]

How is this news?

[SA Chris]

They're doing a series of articles showing the full lists.

[Sloper]

aahh, the 100 best dodgy expenses claims, I'm surprised this hasn't featured on C4 or similar.

[SA Chris]

More of a C5 thing - "When Expense Claims Attack"