[a dense loner]

that's one of the best posts i've ever seen.

chad is not a tool, mind you if i say someone's ok that might not mean a great deal

[richdraws]

Is that moderator abuse of privilege's, Bonjoy?










....good

[Bonjoy]

One piece of abuse deserves another

[slackline]

Perhaps a mod could mark the mrhands.mpg as NSFW.   I only viewed the first two seconds, so I could be way off the mark here, but it might get some people into trouble.

[Idol eyes]

REDROSE< REDROSE<REDROSE<REDROSE<REDROSE...

[tc]

So on the Wainwright System this would rate as what? 8b+ X ?  Doesn't sound as impressive as E12, I grant you.

[SA Chris]

Yawn.

Just got back, and read this. Really pleased for the SFY.

[n_man]

Do Americans spell fuck as fuk, or is it just a typo?

[cofe]

james has been blogging with his thoughts about the route. interesting stuff.

[Jaspersharpe]

Very well written and well reasoned as ever.

[Fiend]

Quick question for the UKB massive:

People on here are pretty sharp and unambiguous about grades and generally seem to have intelligent discourse and clear standards about grading.

Now, E12 is a very very big number. But no-one seems to have any interest, qualms, nor anything to say about the grade. Is that because:

Keenus is a mate to many people so no-one's going to say anything that could be mis-interpreted as doubting/dissing him??

People are totally sure the numbers add up and such a spectacular climb definitely deserves E12??

Discussing grades is all so tedious and armchaircriticy that people are just not interested in it here?? (although not in the Thumbelina thread)

...or another reason????

[andy popp]

Because it sounds E12? All the ludicrous debate on UKC has been fuelled by a failure to understand or accept that such a grade might even be possible. But it seems perfectly plausible to me.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

From reading his blog it seems perfectly reasonable, it's not like he's saying E20 or something is he. From the little I understand about grading, the person to put up any route is not stating

E12.

more like

E12?

As always the initial grade a route gets is a challenge to other climbers to prove wrong. Any volunteers?

[dave]

if i were in james position, i'd be considered the amount of step up in difficulty compared to the E10s hes done, and equate it to the known grade boudaries/steps. So i'm guessing he thought this was the same amount harder than E10 as E10 is above E8, or E5 is above E3. OK grading ain't and exact science, but neither is it rocket science.

idiots on cocktalk theoreticising about the grade are probably the same idiots that said "but how can it be E10, you don't die when you fall off" about equilibruim or "its only a boulder problem", and had the internet been around would probably have said the same about End of the affair etc. idiots will be idiots. the point they're all missing is the a, if not the, climber of our generation went out and against a lot of odds did a mighty route which had spurned previous tallented suitors which to him felt at his limit, totally balls out. Its like a true David Vs Goliath story, only this time, David won.

[Moo]

Because it sounds E12? All the ludicrous debate on UKC has been fuelled by a failure to understand or accept that such a grade might even be possible. But it seems perfectly plausible to me.

Oct 13: James Pearson... E12 justification
by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com


James Pearson has written a very illuminating account of his new route, The Walk Of Life at the sea cliff Dyer's Lookout on the North Devon coast for which he has proposed a grade of E12 7a.

The Walk Of Life, a huge 48m slab route, was climbed after top rope practice, headpoint style, as most hard non-bolted routes are. The route relies on hard to place micro-wires and cams for protection with huge fall potential that James tested on the higher reaches of the route. He survived of course to climb the route. The lower crux is unprotected and a fall could be fatal. Add not only hard moves, poor gear, the sea, rain, put friable rock into the mix and you have a very unique climbing experience. James was belayed by Rich Mayfield and you can read his account here: Hardest and scariest thing I´ve belayed on.

E12 is a new grade in British climbing although Dave MacLeod did say that his recent new route, Echo Wall, also headpointed, was harder than his previous best, Rhapsody, but he refused to label the experience with a grade. Rhapsody is the first route to have a confirmed grade of E11. Whether Echo Wall is top end E11, there is latitude in a grade, or E12, remains to be seen. Both Sonnie Trotter and Steve McClure repeated Rhapsody in June, after top rope practice, and after his ascent Steve McClure said,

"...What I will say is that Dave did not overgrade the route. Not from what he experienced. The climbing is super hard, and the falls are big."

You can read Steve's thoughts on Rhapsody's grade here at a UKC News Report.

As is befitting most professional climbing athletes these days James Pearson discusses at length the experience of climbing The Walk Of Life and the headline grabbing grade of E12 at his blog.

This is what he covers:

- the nature and character of the route including the protection used.

- the history of the route: from a first look by Johnny Dawes; Andy Donson placing 13 pegs on the route; to Ian Vickers' successful headpoint of the top section of The Walk of Life, called Dyers Straits and including James' own relationship with this wall.

THE E12 GRADE

Then James discusses the E12 grade in detail. James' proposed grade certainly has had a lot of top climbers discussing grades. Climbers like Neil Gresham, Gaz Parry, John Dunne and Pete Robins have been heard discussing this new grade and grades in general recently, and it is certainly a hot topic on the UKClimbing.com forums. Grading something E12, a first, is not to be taken lightly, and quite rightly climbers want to discuss it, know more about it and analyse it.

Hard routes are graded by their first ascensionists compared to routes that they have previously done; James' hard ascents of routes include several E9's, and ascents of one confirmed E10, Equilibrium at Burbage South, and two of his own first ascents The Promise at Burbage North with a proposed grade of E10 and The Groove at Cratcliffe Tor with a proposed grade of E10 7b ... which he has now retrospectively proposed a grade of E11.

He then discusses Rhapsody and Echo Wall, two routes of Dave MacLeod's that James has not done. Although James has attempted Rhapsody.

James says: "It just so happens that the only routes I have to compare The Walk Of Life to are either Dave's or my own."

One topic James does not discuss in his thesis is the commercial pressures that climbers face. As John Dunne told me last week, "top climbers have to make a living" and an immediate media report written by photographer Dave Simmonite for Climb magazine stated clearly that this route, "is without peers in terms of commitment, difficulty and danger". An odd statement from someone who has not climbed the route or any of the world's bold and hard routes.

Climbers are quite justified in asking whether commercial pressures play an influence in grading the top routes. Headline grabbing routes and grades increase readership of magazines/websites, sell photographs, increase the advertising revenues of magazines/websites, help sell gear, provide marketing copy for catalogues, and raise the profile of professional climbers which can increase their income.

It all makes for an interesting read into the mind of a world class climber. Whether the E12 grade will be confirmed depends on whether other world class climbers are willing to repeat Walk of Life, and whether they think the experience of climbing this route warrants a new grade of E12.

Read more at James' blog under Wednesday, 8 October 2008.

James is sponsored by The North Face, Wild Country and Five Ten

[slackline]

Better than that is to just read James's blog which was linked earlier and from the article your citing, which doesn't really add to what James' blog reads (bolstered by Ric Mayfields account).

[Moo]

Yeah we've all read it James' account.

Good to have a lot of comment on it after you've read it. Which is what we are doing here and over there. Everyone seems to be discussing it.

[T_B]

Most people don't doubt the grade as you only have to look at what he's done and how hard he boulders. Indian Face for the nu generation and all that.

I'd be interested to hear what the Font grade on the (unprotected slab) crux is, as surely that's fairly quantifiable? Though the overall difficulty is clearly about the sustained nature of 48 metres of climbing.

Interesting to read the breakdown on Echo Wall as badly protected F8a+ to the upside down rest, then F8b (V10 then 7b+) i.e. it's a dangerous/bouldery thing. Like doing Chimes to a strenuous rest, then Pump up the Power where if you fall you die. Perhaps

[Bonjoy]

To me it seems utterly fruitless to argue the toss about the very upper end of an open ended grade scale.
If something is harder than the hardest thing ,then it is either a harder version of the highest current grade or a grade harder. As grades are a made up construct it’s up to the climber of said route to opt for giving it hard E? or open a new grade E?+1. THERE IS NO DIVINELY PRESCRIBED RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER! The climb is creating it's own frame of reference. The division between grades are not mathematically derived physical constants. You can question if X route is harder than Y route (but it’s pretty pointless until more than one person has been on X and Y), but assuming you accept X is harder that Y, then the name you give that extra hardness is up to the FA and subsequent suitors?
It’s just not a big deal. The climb’s a big deal, but the number is just a number. In 10, 20 or 30 years time when there is a bigger frame of reference it will be much easier to judge how neatly the grade fits in with other things.

[fatdoc]

 

but cant write as well as that, nice one!

[Pantontino]

So on the Wainwright System this would rate as what? 8b+ X ?  Doesn't sound as impressive as E12, I grant you.

I'm with tc/Adam Wainwright on this one. Extremely impressive ascent undoubtedly, but until somebody climbs it ground up it shouldn't have an E grade. The cynic in me would also question whether we can really have E12s when we are only on the cusp of establishing E8 ground up?

(NB. Everybody should read Adam's headpointing/grade article in the Sept issue of Climber. There was something similar on UKC by Jack Geldard, but the site doesn't seem to be working at the moment.)

[dave]

Has fiend got hold of si's login credentials?

[Pantontino]

No, I'm serious. I think by adopting sport/risk grades for headpointing we are shifting the emphasis from the headpoint to the ground up/ onsight ascent. It makes more of an event out of the latter. 

[dave]

On the other hand, anyone in any position to be realistcally looking at repeating the route will know exactly what they are letting themselves in for based on E12. the last thing we need is more parallel gradeing scales to confuse matters. theres enough armchair arguments from just 1 grade.

[Pantontino]

I don't think it adds confusion, quite the opposite, it clarifies the situation. The parallel grading system already exists. The sport grade and risk aspect is always discussed. The change is that we award E points for ground up ascents rather than for rehearsed ascents. It's a simple, but very important philosophical shift.

It doesn't have any affect on 99% of existing routes, just the ones that have only ever received rehearsed/non ground up ascents. So London Wall will still be E5 6a, but Leo's route Trauma on Dinas Mot would be F8a R. Once someone does Trauma ground up that person can then suggest an E grade (presumably something like E8 6c).