[AndiT]

Getting back into the bouldering a bit recently it's rekindled an old bugbear of the fb7b grade (V7/8). It seems to be the grade which too many problems get, perhaps sitting more the old grading system of simply 'find hard' (i.e. 3 grades: find easy, find hard, find impossible/desperate). Less classic examples seem to be the 'Welford 7b', which are generally more in the desperate area.

Other than re-jigging the whole grade system I simply propose a graded list of the problems which folk have done covering the wide range of this wild card grade, so we know where we stand in the grand scheme of the all encompassing 7b grade. I'm tall, so of course there will be some differing of opinion but I would be interested in seeing where people think things fit and how things correlate across different areas. I suppose we can do without + grades so if you think a 7a+ or a 7b+ deserves a place then go for it, or you can just ignore the whole idea. Here's a starter for ten or six:


7b Leather Joy Boys - Newstones
7b California Screaming - Ramshaw
7b Codfinger Workout - Bosley Cloud
7b Simple Simon - Wright's Rock
7b The Fin Sitter - Gib Torr
7b Fingers in Every Pie - Wright's Rock

These are all local problems to me and as such I can see the notable difference between the screaming brutal agony of 'LJB' compared to the juggy romp of 'Fingers', I also can see that in their own right each deserves the 7b grade, but for some reason they don't really belong in the same grade bracket. Clearly nothing can be done about this, but I would be interested in seeing where others believe their local '7b's' belong even if they haven't done many/any of the above. We can't change the system, but I suppose we can try to find where we fit in it...

[dave]

On our first visit to wrights i think we all found Fingers to be piss (everyone did it in a couple of goes) compared to simple simon, which no-one did , and i still haven't after 3 visits and never seen anyone else manage it either.

fin sitter is a weird one for me. took me 2 visits to be able to do the standup, but once i did that i flashed the sitter. but then other people have a mare on it. its probably somewhere between the above 2 problems.

[AndiT]

Cool, you seem to be the same as me then in that case. Exactly the same in the case of The Fin where I too effectively flashed the sitter but took numerous attempts to do the stand-up, I still think the top to be the crux. Simple Simon is so much harder than Fingers yet gets the same grade despite being almost the next problem! If it helps, I thought SS 7c when I first did it, it still feels 7b now with plenty of familiarity if you know what I mean!

[mini]

Maybe the difference lies in the diffference in climbing styles. An indoor campus junky will always find Simple Simon easier than the technicality of Leather Joy Boys.

And Fingers is never 7b, no matter what grounding you have!

But in general fair point, maybe 7b is the new 7b+.

[andy_e]

I didn't try all the moves on Fin sitter but I remember someone on here saying it was 6b+ into a 6c- Looking at the holds on the sitter it looks desperate for that. And I couldn't top the Fin out because it was about 700 degrees celsius and someone had tipped goose-fat down the fin, or so it felt like...

[Mirf]

I find Simple Simon one of the hardest 7b's around, then i'm crap at campusing. Fingers felt a lot easier 7a+.
What does nadin's traverse at the roaches get? Inertia reel?

[mini]

Inertia Reel gets 7a+, and at that grade has sent many a good climber packing his pad and walking home. That is definately a problem that suits certain climbers. I find it okay but it suits me, but anyone > 6ft will find it hard.

Nadin' trav goes at 7a which is probably right. On the subject of 7b I would rather use Wrights traverse at 7b as a warm up than Nadin's trav at 7a!!!

[AndiT]

Yeah Inertia Reel and Fielder's Wall at the Baldstones both get 7a+ and I'll never do either!

Wrong's Traverse and Wright's traverse both get 7b they are as far removed in my opinion as Simple Simon and Fingers.

I'm the same as the next man in that it always seems to be easiest to give any new problems 7b, it kind of covers you as not being a sandbag but also not a soft touch, kind of a modern day english 6c in a way.

Anyone willing to add some others to the list, Piss, T-Crack, Out of My Tree start???

[dave]

out of my tree start is weird, some path it, but to me it feels harder than the tor 7cs. probably finger size has a bearing on it, little slots etc.

how about stuff like that 7b lip traverse near apparent north (quite hard), or rambeau (ok), sean's arete (knacky), jerry's traverse, marks roof (hard!), that front face on the andle stone etc.

[mini]

Piss and Out Of My Tree both seem fair at that grade.

Leroy Slips a disc at the Cowperstone, only had a couple of goes but seems tough for 7b??

Fact Hunt 7b+ at Monument Buttress beyond The Eagle stone!!! Someone please tell me its a typo error in Ru's guide!! Sorrry, I know the threads about 7b but this needs clearing up!!

[AndiT]

Dave: Agree with Mark's Roof, just a desperate finish, never fathomed that one out! Out of My Tree, defo a finger size thing.

[Andy B]

out of my tree start is weird, some path it, but to me it feels harder than the tor 7cs. probably finger size has a bearing on it, little slots etc.

I think it's less about OOMT being finger dependant and more about the Tor 7c's being morpho, and easier for the tallexcept bearclaw

[Andy B]

Piss and Out Of My Tree both seem fair at that grade.

Leroy Slips a disc at the Cowperstone, only had a couple of goes but seems tough for 7b??

Fact Hunt 7b+ at Monument Buttress beyond The Eagle stone!!! Someone please tell me its a typo error in Ru's guide!! Sorrry, I know the threads about 7b but this needs clearing up!!

Facthunt seems to be regarded as 7a+ by everyone i know.

Leroy is OK except for the spooky and scrittly top out, which I found the crux, but I would guess it's about 7b.

Of the problems mentioned so farI have done all bar Leather Joy Boys, California Screaming, Codfinger Workout, Wrongs traverse and Fingers in Every Pie, and I found Piss the hardest.

[AndiT]

I really can't get any more than a couple of mm of finger tip in OOMT second hold, but don't mind, I still don't think that it's a harder grade or anything because of this, it just doesn't suite me. There wil always be problems out there like this that just genuinely don't suit.

Some of the other problems however though are so much more than just morphological, there are considerable differences in the power and technique required for say Leather Joy Boys (which I once heard gave Malc Smith a hard time) than there are for something like the Fin Sitter which is kind of basic hugging with some roundness to cope with.

[Andy B]

Is leather Joy Boys generally jammed or sloped. I think this and California Screaming both look like first rate problems but haven't tried either yet, as they seem to get alot of sun for such shady crags and I've always wanted to keep my skin for other things on my visits so far.

[AndiT]

Bit of both. You could probably do it without jamming at all, but that would miss the point. One of the finest highballs I've ever done.

[Jim]

what about giza at 7b? anyone agree

[Jaspersharpe]

I know what you're getting at and perhaps 7b is the worst offender but seriously a lot of the Peak grades seem to be all over the shop. Arete Problem by Remergence for example. Conditions were ridiculously bad when we were there the other day admittedly but we agreed that:

1. The original problem is nails for 6b (grease or no grease)

2. Using both slopers is more like 7a than 6c and

3. Using one sloper is never "At least 7b+". At least 5 grades between the two methods? No way. 7a+/7b perhaps.

As I said conditions were shocking but it still doesn't make sense (and i've found some other strange ones).

This is all  and doesn't help I know..........

Out Of My Tree start was always benchmark 7b but I agree that the fat fingered will find it tougher.

[dave]

that one-sloper variation fill feel s easy in good nick, but nigh on impossible otherwise. its just a conditions thing i think. if you analyse the conditions situation over every day of the year and divide it down to get the average conditions and thus grade it would probably come in at the 7b/+ mark. wether thats right of wrong is another matter. (not some people do it static with a heel hook over right, for them it could be an even lower grade, or less conditioney).

In fairness I don't think 7b is any worse for grading than any other grade really. The percieved discrepancy from your point of view andi is probably because its a couple of grades under what your current max is so you've done a lot of them to compare (and for a lot of us who's been bouldering for a while theres a lot of people of broadly the same ability who between them have done a shit load of 7bs). if andi was 2-grades weaker/stronger this thread could just as well be about how 7as or 7cs are all over the place. in fact if we do searches on ukb we'd probay since similar theads from years gone by started by people of different abilities. if you go on cocktalk you could probably find a lot of them about how badly graded a lot fo VSs or E1s are.

[Jaspersharpe]

In fairness I don't think 7b is any worse for grading than any other grade really etc

My point exactly but better explained.

[AndiT]

I know what you mean but I think that there seems to be a tendancy to group problems into the 7b category, it's more than just a sticky grade. It's the grade to give a new problem or a problem which hasn't been given a boulder problem grade before. It's a catch all for 'hard' problems in my opinion.

OOMT may well be a benchmark at the grade, but because it's finger size dependent it's about as useful as a benchmark as the Buckstone Dyno. Maybe this is part of the problem, that 7b is the start of where problems become specific and as such all begin to seem a little 'all over the place'.

[Jaspersharpe]

Maybe this is part of the problem, that 7b is the start of where problems become specific and as such all begin to seem a little 'all over the place'.

But 7b isn't the start of where things become specific. Only if that's how strong you are. If your limit is 6c and you're good on crimpy stuff but with weak arms then you're gonna find certain crimpy 6c problems possible but other burly ones too specific. I get what you're saying about lumping together things which are just perceived as "quite hard" but the grade mess is the same at other levels too.

[Andy B]

To (hopefully) illustrate dave's and Jasper's point, that this could apply to any grade, further, when we moved to Sheffield, two years ago, I started working through the guide, and felt that 7a+ seemed to be the catch all grade, with everything from Weedkiller and Electrical Storm to El Regallo del Mocho and Dragon Slayer.

Jim: I think Giza is hard for 7b if you have to use the rockover method.

[AndiT]

  with all said above. I just think there is more than a single grade in 7b's often found within easy reach of each other more so than other grades I have climbed and that this is reflected in the trend of giving problems the grade. There is sometimes no comparison even in similar style problems: Wright's Traverse - juggy sideways cruising, Wrong's Traverse - fingery mono and crimping death; The hard version of Help The Aged - A steady slopy pull up, Giza - grimacing desparate power pull. Should these sit in the same grade boundary?

[Ru]

There are quite a few grade discrepancies in the guide, inevitable when you try to regrade the whole Peak in one go. Of the ones that are way out, there's usually a reason. Many problems have new methods or have cleaned up a lot in the last few years. Plus I didn't actually climb every problem in the guide. I did lots and lots of them, but not all, so not all problems were graded relative to each other at the same time. Plus conditions change and on grit it's not so easy to get the grade right for everyone, it being quite techy at times.

Fact Hunt - This was a new Percy problem at the time, and the whole buttress went in last minute. It had only had a couple of ascents, none by me, and may have been much more dirty/have used fewer holds originally.

Giza - this was originally given 7c+ and had very few repeats at the time. I remember Cofe told me he'd done it and thought 7b. I think 7c must have been a compromise between the two grades that was proved wrong when everyone did it.

Remergence arete problems - these probably got more feedback than any other problems, maybe 30 people vetted those grades, but that doesn't mean that they're not wrong. I still think the one-sloper eliminate is hard, but the key word "footless" was edited out at some stage and I didn't notice on subsequent re-readings. Go back, hold the sloper with your left, and the nose with your right, and campus through footless. It's at least 7b+... In retrospect it should never have gone in and only did so for historical reasons as Jason Myres mentioned it in the original Peak Plus.

On another footless note, many people have told me that the Weedkiller Trav Footless is soft for 7c+. Firstly, people now miss out the crux which is holding and crossing on a poor bit of slot with the left hand by reaching further to a better bit (a jug). Secondly I presumed that no-one would take these throw-away mentions of possible grades for eliminate variations seriously or regard them as anything more than a bit of interesting pissing about, but now people claim footless variations as seperate problems. I await my footless ascent of Powerband to the PUTP jug to be hailed as the first 8b+ in the peak.