[Luke Owens]

Hi Guys,

I'm a long time reader but I haven't posted yet. I know a lot of people on here give out great advice!

This winter i've wrote myself a training plan for the beastmaker. I've been progressing slowly and tweeking what i'm doing slightly so i'm feeling worked at the end of the session.

My main question is something strange that happend in my session this eve. The last couple of sessions have been as follows (All 2 arms):

10 - 15 minute warm up
--
Pinch Grip (2x4 attached to a 10kg weight) 7 sec hang 3 sec rest x 6 - Left and Right arm
3 Minute Rest

Alternating between hanging 140 degrees, 90 degrees and full lock for the next three grips
3 finger open hand pockets 7 sec hang 3 sec rest x 6
3 Minute Rest
20 Degree sloper 7 sec hang 3 sec rest x 6
3 Minute Rest
Middle 2 Pockets 5 sec hang 5 sec rest x 6
5 Minute rest
--
I then repeat the whole thing again and once I get to the 3 finger open hand on my third set i've been burning out. I usually train on an empty stomach, early evening.

This evening was different, I worked late and had to train at 9pm and also had dinner before hand so I felt heavy. My session felt alot harder from the word go, but somehow I managed to complete 3 sets of all the grip types, which is my personal best. I really didn't expect it. I also upped the weight on the pinch grip to 13kg to see how I got on.

My question is, Is this a sign of improving, gaining an energy boost from food or something else?

Also, any tips on my training plan would be much appreciated. I'm looking to improve on Pinches and Slopers as I feel these are my main weakness.

Cheers,

Luke

[quiffhanger]

I'd stopped trying to predict or understand good versus bad sessions as I'd get continually surprised.

However, I then started recording my sessions - performance, general fatigue, hunger, rest time, etc. Looking back at the data I can see a really broad correlation whereby I do very very slightly better when well rested, not too hungry, etc but there are some huge outliers - random times where I'm strong despite having slept bad, climbed hard the previous day, stuffed or starving, etc. I suspect they're mainly mood related: I simply sometimes just have the grit to try harder but I it's a tricky thing to quantify.

I suggest systematically tweaking little things and recording the output but expect a lot of noise so be careful not to jump to conclusions.

Or just start with eating some more food before training and see if you can reproduce the effect a few times?

[TobyD]

I'd stopped trying to predict or understand good versus bad sessions as I'd get continually surprised.
 I simply sometimes just have the grit to try harder but I it's a tricky thing to quantify.
Or just start with eating some more food before training?

Hammer, meet head of nail.

You can influence, sway but not objectively predict performance. Otherwise TV athletics would be awfully dull wouldn't it?
In my experience training hungry = lower concentration, higher injury risk, and possibly lower performance (certainly if it's more than a very quick power session).

[Luke Owens]

Thanks guys. Any advice on my training plan?

Cheers

[Sasquatch]

Thanks guys. Any advice on my training plan?

Cheers

As far a as a basic FB workout goes, it's fine, but that's not a training plan.  That's a FB workout.  You don't mention if you're doing front 3 or back 3. 

What's the goal of the workout? Get stronger fingers?  Adapt strength to different grips? 

How ofetn are you doing te workout?  What other activities are you doing? 

To have a training plan, you have to have all of these. Otherwise you're just doing a finger exercise, not a training plan.

Not being a dick, just really early in the AM for me and not very sociable....

[Luke Owens]

Apologies, I meant "Any advice on my Fingerboard training plan?".

I'm just doing front 3 at the moment. What would be the best grip type for back 3? Half crimp?

My goal is to get stronger open handed and on pinches. I'm mainly training open handed.

I try and do this fingerboard work out twice a week after a rest day, I boulder indoors one day in the week also and then go outdoors one day on the weekend either Bouldering or Sport climbing. I do core about 3 times a week and occasionaly do a light session on a stationary bike as active rest.

I'm currently bouldering V5/V6 and have a goal of V7 for this year.

Thanks,

[Sasquatch]

That's much better
And sorry about my atrocious spelling earlier.....  No idea why I didn't spell check.

Overall seems like a good starting point.  Similar to where I started.  Best advice I can give would be track progress very diligently and be patient.  Periodically change things up, every 6 weeks or so seems to be standard.  Then come back to the same workout later and see how you do relative to previous.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks Sasquatch, would you recommend adding the back 3 into the workout?

By changing things up, do you mean change the FB workout to a different FB workout or stop the FB completely for a bit and do something else training wise?

I've been recording my workouts since November, seen steady gains since then, good times!

[Nibile]

Ciao Luke,
just seen this. I think the empty/full stomach thing could work like this: you feel heavy at the start because a lot of blood is needed by the stomach during the digestion process. What did you have for dinner?
Then maybe the increased heart rate due to the excercise speeded up the digestion and you found yourself with some good fuel to burn.
Does it make sense to those who know better than me?

As far as the FB plan goes, it seems a lot of volume to me. It will produce gains for sure, but probably more endurance oriented. If you want strength I'd sack the repeaters and go for a few sets of max hangs on different holds, with or without added weight, or one armed.

Anyway, go for it!!! 

[Pebblespanker]

Nibs is bang on about max hangs if you are after improving strength and defintely get some Back 3 Dead hang action in there    If you don't train them specifically they will be weakest and from which you should be able to get some fairly quick gains, also consider fitting in some Back 2 work and they are the weakest of the lot in the vast majority of climbers

If you are already using the shallowest 3 finger pockets for Repeaters then once consolidated get some extra weight on to increase resistance

Do some reading on periodisation and get a structured plan sorted including scheduled rest periods to allow recovery

[Durbs]

Can I just quickly ask what a "max hang" is?
Is it sticking the hold-until failure ("maixmum hang time") or something different?

[Nibile]

Can I just quickly ask what a "max hang" is?
Is it sticking the hold-until failure ("maixmum hang time") or something different?

A max hang is a hang that is your maximum effort, so on a hold that you can only hang for a very brief time, I'd say from 2 to 8 seconds. It's the hardest you can do.
So, it revolves around holding the hold until failure, but on a max effort, so a short time.

[Luke Owens]

Ciao Luke,
just seen this. I think the empty/full stomach thing could work like this: you feel heavy at the start because a lot of blood is needed by the stomach during the digestion process. What did you have for dinner?
Then maybe the increased heart rate due to the exercises speeded up the digestion and you found yourself with some good fuel to burn.
Does it make sense to those who know better than me?

As far as the FB plan goes, it seems a lot of volume to me. It will produce gains for sure, but probably more endurance oriented. If you want strength I'd sack the repeaters and go for a few sets of max hangs on different holds, with or without added weight, or one armed.

Anyway, go for it!!! 

That sounds like it could be the reason! I had eaten Chicken Breast with a plate of steamed veg. I've just got through a new bag of protein and instant oats, used to use this before the gym when I used to do weights alot and it gave me a pretty good boost before hand.  Will see if I can get the same result.

Funny you should mention the Max Hangs as I thought I'd experiment with these last night. I can hand the deep slots on the beastmaker 2k:

Front 3 -
25 seconds - No Weight
15 seconds - 10kg

20 Degree Sloper -
20 seconds - No Weight
13 seconds - 10kg

Definitely going to try out a max hangs session. Any advice on sets/times/structure? Is it best to train half crimped or open handed or both?

Nibs is bang on about max hangs if you are after improving strength and definitely get some Back 3 Dead hang action in there    If you don't train them specifically they will be weakest and from which you should be able to get some fairly quick gains, also consider fitting in some Back 2 work and they are the weakest of the lot in the vast majority of climbers

If you are already using the shallowest 3 finger pockets for Repeaters then once consolidated get some extra weight on to increase resistance

Do some reading on periodisation and get a structured plan sorted including scheduled rest periods to allow recovery

Will try out back 3 next session, I'm currently using the deep pockets on either end of the Beastmaker 2k for the 3 fingers.

With the repeater session being more endurance based would it work to maybe cycle max hangs for 6 weeks, then take a week off the FB then do a cycle or repeaters for 6 weeks or something similar?

Cheers guys

[Sasquatch]

I could be a bit off on this description, so I might get chastised by some of the real training guru's, but here it goes:

Muscle strength can be gained in two general ways.  Increasing the muscle size, or increasing the tensile strength.  In general for your forearms in climbing, doing both is good, you're not going to develop so much forearm mass that you will decrease your strength to weight ratio.  Repeaters are going to generate more hypertrophy(muscle growth), whereas max hangs are going to generate more tensile strength.  Keep in mind there is overlap in this and this is very general.

The concept of periodization is that you train one aspect for a period of time, then shift and train the another.  Your body is remarkably good at adapting, but will also naturally come to a more steady equilibrium.  By changing routine, you can increase the adaptation.

Definitely going to try out a max hangs session. Any advice on sets/times/structure? Is it best to train half crimped or open handed or both?

Don't just "try it out".  Plan it out, then execute the training.  There will most likely be a period of adaptation as you shift to the max hangs where you won't really see progress for about 1-2 weeks(3-4 sessions), then all of a sudden you will start seeing improvements.  So doing a one off max hangs workout isn't a good idea unless you are doing it as a benchmark to measure progress. 

See the Eva Lopez thread and read through for more than you'd care to know about max hangs.

Will try out back 3 next session, I'm currently using the deep pockets on either end of the Beastmaker 2k for the 3 fingers.

See above about planning.  If you want to do back 3 training(which I agree is a good idea), then build it into your workout and make it a consistant thing.

With the repeater session being more endurance based would it work to maybe cycle max hangs for 6 weeks, then take a week off the FB then do a cycle or repeaters for 6 weeks or something similar?

Exactly

After you've been doing it a bit longer, you'll start to see how and when you improve and you can refine your training to maximize the improvements.

[JJP]

Hi,
I tend to alternate max hangs and repeaters as you suggested although spend much more time on max hangs. I tend to do sets of 3 at each grip. I aim to be able to hang for 3-8 seconds. If the hold gets to easy I progress to smaler hold or add weight. Also aim for quality over quantity.

I find how the sessions feel fluctuates all the time and writing things down seems to be the best way to notice trends.

Out of interest, how are you training a pinch on the BM - ie what holds are you using?
Cheers

[Luke Owens]

I could be a bit off on this description, so I might get chastised by some of the real training guru's, but here it goes:

Muscle strength can be gained in two general ways.  Increasing the muscle size, or increasing the tensile strength.  In general for your forearms in climbing, doing both is good, you're not going to develop so much forearm mass that you will decrease your strength to weight ratio.  Repeaters are going to generate more hypertrophy(muscle growth), whereas max hangs are going to generate more tensile strength.  Keep in mind there is overlap in this and this is very general.

The concept of periodization is that you train one aspect for a period of time, then shift and train the another.  Your body is remarkably good at adapting, but will also naturally come to a more steady equilibrium.  By changing routine, you can increase the adaptation.

Definitely going to try out a max hangs session. Any advice on sets/times/structure? Is it best to train half crimped or open handed or both?

Don't just "try it out".  Plan it out, then execute the training.  There will most likely be a period of adaptation as you shift to the max hangs where you won't really see progress for about 1-2 weeks(3-4 sessions), then all of a sudden you will start seeing improvements.  So doing a one off max hangs workout isn't a good idea unless you are doing it as a benchmark to measure progress. 

See the Eva Lopez thread and read through for more than you'd care to know about max hangs.

Will try out back 3 next session, I'm currently using the deep pockets on either end of the Beastmaker 2k for the 3 fingers.

See above about planning.  If you want to do back 3 training(which I agree is a good idea), then build it into your workout and make it a consistant thing.

With the repeater session being more endurance based would it work to maybe cycle max hangs for 6 weeks, then take a week off the FB then do a cycle or repeaters for 6 weeks or something similar?

Exactly

After you've been doing it a bit longer, you'll start to see how and when you improve and you can refine your training to maximize the improvements.

I've had a read through the Lopez thread - Interesting stuff! I'm keen to try it out. I've devised this workout hopefully I've got the right end of the stick as there is a lot of info on that thread:

Hang 10sec with - 5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 7.5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 9kg
rest 3 minutes

Main Set
Hang 10sec with 10kg - 3 sets
rest 3 minutes

Would this be just be a half crimp grip with four fingers for the whole session?

How do you go about training different grip types during a max hang cycle or is the logic that it will transfer to the other grip types? Sorry if I'm sounding like a bit of an idiot, it's a lot to take on board!

Hi,
I tend to alternate max hangs and repeaters as you suggested although spend much more time on max hangs. I tend to do sets of 3 at each grip. I aim to be able to hang for 3-8 seconds. If the hold gets to easy I progress to smaler hold or add weight. Also aim for quality over quantity.

I find how the sessions feel fluctuates all the time and writing things down seems to be the best way to notice trends.

Out of interest, how are you training a pinch on the BM - ie what holds are you using?
Cheers

I use a 2x4 piece of wood with a weight attached to it. Which grip types do you train with max hangs?

[Pebblespanker]

Which grip types do you train with max hangs?

Open hand, half crimp and full crimp but generally for me I do more open hand than anything at the moment and crimp the least - because I was crap open handed, also because some open-hand gains translate to crimp but not the opposite and mainly because I have a dodgy joint on my left ring finger that needs careful management. Crimping will get some focus towards the end of the winter as part of a crimp focus in a strength cycle to ensure I don't have too many imbalances

[JJP]

I pretty much train the standard grip types on a BM 2000 and a small campus rung for max hangs but vary it a bit depending on injuries etc (eg. not training back 3 at the moment as it seems to aggravate a middle finger collateral lig injury).

Typical session at the moment involves warm up, 3 max hangs (slightly bent elbow/ 90 degree elbow/ slow pull up) working 4 finger open, 2 sets 3 finger open, 2 sets 35 degree sloper, front 2, middle 2, back 2 and 4/5 sets of half crimp (is my weakest grip).

Now made a pinch trainer to add to routine

[Luke Owens]

My dilemma at the moment is as a result of reading that Eva Lopez thread as the Max Hangs are just half crimped on a good edge with weight for 3 sets.

I'm wanting to try that plan out but I i'm unsure how i'm supposed to work my weaknesses at the same time such as slopers, pinches and back 2/3 when that workout is just the one grip type. . . ? Is the idea that it's supposed to transfer over to these other grips? Anyone?

[shark]

My dilemma at the moment is as a result of reading that Eva Lopez thread as the Max Hangs are just half crimped on a good edge with weight for 3 sets.

I'm wanting to try that plan out but I i'm unsure how i'm supposed to work my weaknesses at the same time such as slopers, pinches and back 2/3 when that workout is just the one grip type. . . ? Is the idea that it's supposed to transfer over to these other grips? Anyone?

It will transfer (especially back 2/3 strength which isn't a grip as such) but not as directly as training those grips specifically. The half crimp is chosen as I understand it because it is the default grip for sport climbing. It is not as harsh on the joints as a full crimp or as reliant on conditions, hold type and finger morphology as a drag. It certainly feels like a strength dependent (rather than knacky) grip. I am expecting it to provide a good foundation for training finger endurance (not sure about other grips) which I'll start training once the gains start diminishing or I need it for a route. For the time being I am happy to stick to half crimping and let the other grips get randomly worked whilst bouldering though there's no reason why you shouldn't make a point of doing problems on slopes and pinches if you feel you are missing out.

[Luke Owens]

My dilemma at the moment is as a result of reading that Eva Lopez thread as the Max Hangs are just half crimped on a good edge with weight for 3 sets.

I'm wanting to try that plan out but I I'm unsure how I'm supposed to work my weaknesses at the same time such as slopers, pinches and back 2/3 when that workout is just the one grip type. . . ? Is the idea that it's supposed to transfer over to these other grips? Anyone?

It will transfer (especially back 2/3 strength which isn't a grip as such) but not as directly as training those grips specifically. The half crimp is chosen as I understand it because it is the default grip for sport climbing. It is not as harsh on the joints as a full crimp or as reliant on conditions, hold type and finger morphology as a drag. It certainly feels like a strength dependent (rather than knacky) grip. I am expecting it to provide a good foundation for training finger endurance (not sure about other grips) which I'll start training once the gains start diminishing or I need it for a route. For the time being I am happy to stick to half crimping and let the other grips get randomly worked whilst bouldering though there's no reason why you shouldn't make a point of doing problems on slopes and pinches if you feel you are missing out.

Thanks Shark, I'm going to start an 8 week cycle of the Weighted Max Hangs set out as per my above post changing to a smaller edge after 4 weeks but in my case will probably be without weight on the small edge at first.

I boulder indoors once a week and get outdoors at the weekend so I'll concentrate on slopers and pinches then.

Will post my progress with this, keen to see how I get on!

[Nibile]

I have tweaked my FB sessions over the years, so that now I have two options.
I work my weaknesses doing two armed hangs with some added weights but only on very specific holds, namely the 45's, monos, small pockets.
Then I work my max hangs doing one armed hangs on more common and useful prehensions: back3 big rungs, front3 right eye, half crimp on the incut slot (that I reduced).
Trying to work my weaker prehensions and my stronger ones in the same session proved almost impossible, one half of the work was of no quality.
I also used to do one armed hangs on pockets, front, back, mid2, but it was painful and felt tweaky. I found that working monos two armed works as well and transfers to two finger prehensions very well.
Hope this helps.

[Sasquatch]

I pretty much train the standard grip types on a BM 2000 and a small campus rung for max hangs but vary it a bit depending on injuries etc (eg. not training back 3 at the moment as it seems to aggravate a middle finger collateral lig injury).

Typical session at the moment involves warm up, 3 max hangs (slightly bent elbow/ 90 degree elbow/ slow pull up) working 4 finger open, 2 sets 3 finger open, 2 sets 35 degree sloper, front 2, middle 2, back 2 and 4/5 sets of half crimp (is my weakest grip).

Now made a pinch trainer to add to routine

There's no way that's max hangs anymore.  It's way too much volume for a truly "max hang" workout.  You're doing 18-19 Max Hangs. 

Training maximum strength is a very low volume high intensity workout.  When you're done, you almost feel like you haven't even done a workout.  The goal is to stop when you've done just enough to elicit the adaptive repsonce and not one bit more. All you're doing by adding sets at that point is lengthening the recovery time with very little strength benefit.  It's very counterintuitive until you understand the background to it.

My dilemma at the moment is as a result of reading that Eva Lopez thread as the Max Hangs are just half crimped on a good edge with weight for 3 sets.

I'm wanting to try that plan out but I i'm unsure how i'm supposed to work my weaknesses at the same time such as slopers, pinches and back 2/3 when that workout is just the one grip type. . . ? Is the idea that it's supposed to transfer over to these other grips? Anyone?

Yes and no. I found a high transference to all pocket combos, and pinches, but not as much to some slopers. for the bigger full hand type slopers, there's a wrist strength component which doesn't get the same training.  It does take a few sessions to adapt the strength, but it's definitely there. 

This to me is one of the reasons to go back and forth between repeaters and Max Hangs.  On the max hangs, I want to elicit the training responce in all my fingers, the repeaters should consolidate those strength gains across different grip types and more hangs in general. 

[abarro81]

I always used to* do lots of hangs like that in my 'max hang' sessions, and was told off by Paul B for them not being 'max' at that volume. Thing is, let's say you're resting 2min between hangs, 20 hangs is only 40 min session after warm up, which is damn short. I certainly wouldn't feel like I'd done much after that. This approach may however explain why I'm a route climber and will never be good at bouldering. Strength training sucks cos you have to rest all the time, endurance work is much more fun


*I can't hang at the moment due to elbow issues

[Luke Owens]

I've had a read through the Lopez thread - Interesting stuff! I'm keen to try it out. I've devised this workout hopefully I've got the right end of the stick as there is a lot of info on that thread:

Hang 10sec with - 5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 7.5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 9kg
rest 3 minutes

Main Set
Hang 10sec with 10kg - 3 sets
rest 3 minutes

OK, I planned to do the above this evening and this is how it went. . .

Weight at time of hangs 68kg

I did 10 minutes warm up which included press-ups, stretching and feet on hangs.

Beastmaker slot below the 45 degree slopers, 20mm? I used this for all hangs in a half crimped grip.

Progressive Set
Hang 10sec with - 5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 7.5kg
rest 3 minutes
Hang 10sec with - 9kg
rest 3 minutes

Main Set
Hang 10sec with 10kg - 5 sets - %BW - 14.71% - Total Weight - 78kg
rest 3 minutes

I manged 2 extra sets than planned, the hangs themselves felt hard and I had to try hard. Reading info on the Lopez thread due to the successful 5 sets should I up the weight by 1.5kg for the next session and aim for 3 main sets again?

I felt completely different at the end of the session to a repeater session. My fingers specifically feel worked especially my back 2 (weakest fingers) usually feel it more in forearms on repeaters.

Overall it was successful - Psyched!