[roddersm]

Hi all,

Based on some comments made by Dave (http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/) in his latest post, I'm just wondering what people think about using preplaced gear on trad routes? Is an ascent valid if some or all of the gear is pre-placed?

My own opinion is that obviously it is ideal that gear is placed on lead (the same way it is
that everything is done onsight or groundup) however if someone uses preplaced gear I think it is fair enough I suppose provided they are honest?

Do people feel it is an acceptable practice and can an ascent be claimed if preplaced runners are used?

[Tris]

Honesty is the best policy...

[tomtom]

I like to preplace my gear using a Hilka drill, some resin and stainless steel staples 

[slackline]

can an ascent be claimed if preplaced runners are used?

You would claim an ascent with pre-placed runners in this instance, i.e. honesty.

See On-Sight for more on this.

[Bonjoy]

It’s a lower quality ascent and something for others to improve on. Once an ascent without pre-placement has been made, it’s then rather lame if subsequent ascents go back to pre-placing. But they’re all valid ascents of sorts.
Well below the cutting edge I’m sure most of us have led stuff on our partners gear when pushed for time, or not stripped runners after a fall. Woopy-shit, it’s supposed to be a fun day out, there’s no way I’m going to start abseiling the same route over and over again to take out one or two runners on routes where it makes little difference.
On FA’s I’ll always make the extra effort to be scrupulous about placing gear on lead, though I did once pre-placed a piece of gear by climbing up an adjacent tree and reaching across (and graded the route E3 rather than E5 to reflect this).
Abbing in and pre-placing the gear is generally very lame though and reduces trad routes to sport routes. But I’ve never actually seen anyone stoop that low. Then again, I’d consider doing it on something like Spanish Fly at Gardoms which is graded E6 for having one pre-placed RP (it is genuinely impossible to reach the placement on lead) and has not been led without.
Horses for course, grey area, lame but valid, blah-de-blah….

[webbo]

Abbing in and pre-placing the gear is generally very lame though and reduces trad routes to sport routes. But I’ve never actually seen anyone stoop that low.

i guess i'll be needing a wheelchair that fits under a snakes belly then.

[lagerstarfish]

it’s supposed to be a fun day out

That's just crazy talk.

It's this sort of attitude that springs from the mistaken belief that people have a right to seek happiness and the consequent assumption that seeking happiness is a reasonable end in itself.

Hard work and misery with no earthly reward is where the real shit is at.

[Pantontino]

It's a slippery slope Webbo - first the zimmer frame, now the wheel chair.

Next they'll have you bed bound with a sherry drip feed...ah, bliss!

[roddersm]

Thanks for the replies. I don't really have strong feelings on this either way, although placing gear on lead should be the norm I believe, and pretty much concur with what has been said however I just want to see what the general view is. Dave Mac obviously feels strongly about this however I can think of other top end ascent like Steve Mac on rhapsody, Seb on Parthian, Gaz Parry(and others) on Big Issue as just a few examples where gear has been preplaced  or in-situ, so this is obviously an accepted practice (at least at the cutting edge).

However wasn't there some controversy years ago with Sean Myles doing Rodney Mullen at Ilkley
and this being omitted from the guide. But yet Robin barker did Marbelleous at stanage usingg preplaced gear and this was ok.  So clearly there is some debate if a trad route can be done using insitu gear. Sorry if I've got this wrong by the way, but I vaguely remember reading about this years ago but can't remember the exact details.

I realise this is not black and white issue but I just want to see what peoples opinions are.

However one thing I would say that if someone is happy to prepractice a route, it does seem to be a bit arbritory to insist on placing all the gear on lead. Thats not a critcism of headpointing or Dave Mac by the way.

[Andy B]

I thought Sean Myles got a really raw deal over Rodney Mullen.

[Bonjoy]

However one thing I would say that if someone is happy to prepractice a route, it does seem to be a bit arbritory to insist on placing all the gear on lead. Thats not a critcism of headpointing or Dave Mac by the way.

I don't buy this argument. By pre-practicing the ascent they have already hugely stacked the odds in their favour compared to an onsight, why should life then be made even easier by having all the gear in? The whole point of the headpoint concept is that all the shady business goes on prior to the ascent, so that the actual ascent can be whiter than white.

[Will Hunt]

 

[webbo]

However one thing I would say that if someone is happy to prepractice a route, it does seem to be a bit arbritory to insist on placing all the gear on lead. Thats not a critcism of headpointing or Dave Mac by the way.

I don't buy this argument. By pre-practicing the ascent they have already hugely stacked the odds in their favour compared to an onsight, why should life then be made even easier by having all the gear in? The whole point of the headpoint concept is that all the shady business goes on prior to the ascent, so that the actual ascent can be whiter than white.

so we're talking pre placed chalk as well.actually i may be guilty of that one as well.

[roddersm]

However one thing I would say that if someone is happy to prepractice a route, it does seem to be a bit arbritory to insist on placing all the gear on lead. Thats not a critcism of headpointing or Dave Mac by the way.

I don't buy this argument. By pre-practicing the ascent they have already hugely stacked the odds in their favour compared to an onsight, why should life then be made even easier by having all the gear in? The whole point of the headpoint concept is that all the shady business goes on prior to the ascent, so that the actual ascent can be whiter than white.

Fair point Bonjoy. I'm not really into headpointing so don't feel strongly enough about this to have an "argument" as such, so thats a reasonable enough reason for approaching a headpoint this way.

I suppose the rational behind my comment is that once you decide to prepractice a route you are already applying sport climbing ethic
to a trad route. It is possible to wire all of the moves as well as the gear placements. Once this is done it seems a fairly minor detail,
generally speaking, to have some or all of the gear preplaced. It is acceptable to climb sport routes with the draws in when this clearly can make life easier, if a trad route is being headpointed, which is essentially a sport style approach, should the same rules not apply?

Obviously having all or any of the gear preplaced or insitu is not good practice but is it an acceptable form of ascent if this is done?

[tc]

Abbing in and pre-placing the gear is generally very lame though and reduces trad routes to sport routes. But I’ve never actually seen anyone stoop that low.

i guess i'll be needing a wheelchair that fits under a snakes belly then.

Don't be too full of self-loathing Webbo, you're in good company. First ascent of Strawberries (to name one example of many) was done on pre-placed gear.

[SA Chris]

I thought Sean Myles got a really raw deal over Rodney Mullen.

Apparently so. I think Dave Musgrove Snr was apologetic about the stance he took, esp as SM did it again afterwards in better style?

[Bonjoy]

The basic rational behind headpointing is that the end justifies the means. If the end isn’t a clean ascent, placing gear and with no falls, then the means aren’t really justified. If this seems contrived it’s because it is contrived. Headpointing is contrived, but it has it's place, esspecially for new routing.
The comparison with sport redpointing as justification is flawed. Placing a fiddly nest of marginal gear, mid crux, in a position of extreme peril is not analogous, in all but the most superficial of ways, with putting a quickdraw on a bolt which has been deliberately put in an easy to clip location, probably only 3m above the last one. No amount of pre-practice will change this. Clips are left in sport routes because it is consistent with the sport concept which is to lead a difficult sequence with minimum technical encumbrance. Headpointing as a bastardised version of trad climbing, attempts to incorporate not eliminate the danger inherent in the route, hence it would be cheating to pre-place the gear. Trad route grades incorporate the difficulty of placing the gear and whilst pre-practice muddies this somewhat, pre-placing will in most cases make a given grade meaningless. There is no shortage of decent sport routes in the UK, why try to sport climb up trad routes.
Webbo – chalk, uh? Clutching at straws is only cheating if you planted them there first.

[roddersm]

Fair points Bonjoy. You obviously have a strong and well thought out opinion on this and
you're logic seems sound to me. However I'm not sure if it's just as clear cut as you are making out.

Agreed the comparison with sport redpointing is flawed however it is not completely with out merit.

Surely using an exended quickdraw in place at a tricky or reachy clip could be just as significant in a redpoint ascent of a sport route as having a preplaced bit of gear on a trad headpoint? Especially as the fiddling about with the gear can be almost (but not completely) eliminated through continual top roped practice and practicing of the placing of the gear?

If the pre-placing of gear is as significant as you're saying and is indeed cheating then surely a lot of high profile ascents of trad routes, such as Ste Macs on Rhapsody, Sebs on Parthian, Dave B on Divided  years/WOL etc. should not be recognised as valid ascents?

[slackline]

If the pre-placing of gear is as significant as you're saying and is indeed cheating then surely a lot of high profile ascents of trad routes, such as Ste Macs on Rhapsody, Sebs on Parthian, Dave B on Divided  years/WOL etc. should not be recognised as valid ascents?

  They're valid ascents in the style that they chose to do them.  Each of these people had the integrity to report the style in which they did the ascent.  Nothing more, nor less.  They and others can go back and improve on that style if so desired.

Now stop trolling 

[roddersm]

If the pre-placing of gear is as significant as you're saying and is indeed cheating then surely a lot of high profile ascents of trad routes, such as Ste Macs on Rhapsody, Sebs on Parthian, Dave B on Divided  years/WOL etc. should not be recognised as valid ascents?

  They're valid ascents in the style that they chose to do them.  Each of these people had the integrity to report the style in which they did the ascent.  Nothing more, nor less.  They and others can go back and improve on that style if so desired.

Now stop trolling 

Not sure what trolling is slack line? I was responding directly to Bonjoys comments that preplacing gear is cheating? I think its a confusing topic so I'm just interesed in what peoples views are. My own would be that if I was to elect to headpoint a route then minimal prepractice and a preplaced runner would be no more "cheating" than a lot of prepractice and placing all of the gear on lead.

However if the general climbing concensus in the uk was that it was not acceptable to climb a route with any preplaced gear then I probably wouldn't consider it.  I don't have much headpointing experience and come from a traditional climbing background so am just interested to see what the  accepted practices are from those with more headpointing experience.

[slackline]

And I say this because it really doesn't matter how someone chooses to climb a route as long as they are honest about it, that way others can judge whether they feel the ascent was "valid" or not based on their own internal ethical machine.  Now clearly you and Bonjoy are differing on this, but thats fine, you can do, and it doesn't matter because what you think is valid is clearly different from Bonjoy and will differ from the next person.  All that matters at the end of the day is that people are honest, so there's no point in "Well I think this" pointless circular arguments that have been done to death trillions of times.

[Bonjoy]

I never said ascents weren't valid and I also said that at the very top end of new routing the 'rules' tend to fray a bit. FA's deserve some leeway when pushing new ground. It's a challenge for repeats to improve on these, but doing worse than the FA is climbing in poor style. Historic ascents are there to be improved on. I'd no more argue that Seb's ascent of Partian was invalid than I'd argue that aid climbed FAs were invalid. They each happened in historically different contexts and have since been improved on. To go back and aid climb a free route now though would be poor style, as would headpointing Parthian on pre-placed gear, because the bar has been raised since by better ascents.
You're mistaken in thinking that pre-practicing an extremely strenuous fiddly placement will render it no harder than clipping a bolt. Much easier than the first attempt maybe, but it will still remain significantly tricky and tiring. You also fail to take into account the fact that the quality of a blind placed piece can't properly be assessed whilst on lead. Trusting a piece you've placed one handed, round a corner, mid-crux, is a million miles from trusting the same piece but placed with two hands whilst on abseil, then visually assess and jump tested on the ground.
You misunderstand sportclimbing/redpointing if you think the extension of a clip is in the least bit 'bad style'  . It isn't, infact it's very good practice if it improves your chances on the route, such is the redpoint game. It's a very different discipline to headpointing and maintaining the 'scariness' of a clip is of no relevance to an ascents validity, not one iota. It might make you look soft to some onlookers but is nonetheless entirely consistent with the redpoint approach. You're more likely to hear a sport climber argue that skipping a clip is cheating, rather than extending one.

[roddersm]

Bonjoy. Thanks for taking time to reply to this thread. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I think you are taking some of what I said out of context as I wasn't stating a definitive view in my posts, only that I don't think the issue is as clear cut as you're making out. That said I respect your opinion on the topic. You didn't say ascents weren't valid but you did state categorically that preplacing gear was cheating, which is why I asked fro clarification.

You're correct a fiddly placement is a lot harder than clipping a bolt. However placement of the exact piece of gear strategically placed on your harness is not that much harder than trying to make an out of reach, hard clip on a sport route, at least if injury or death are not the consequence of falling off.  An extended in place quick draw is fine to make the latter problem easier (never said this was bad style), so is it not acceptable to make the former easier by preplacing the fiddly bit of gear? According to you and Dave Mac, No, which is fair enough and I respect that view, I'm not disagreeing just interested to see if that is the general concensus. Your points about sportclimbing/redpointing are very valid though. Thanks again.

Slack Line.  I started this thread as a way to gain knowledge from other people (like bonjoy and who ever else has contributed) as opposed to put across my own opinion on this from my limited headpointing knowledge.  If this has been debated before on here or elsewhere then point me to it. It's obviously still a contentious issue though or Dave Mac wouldn't have brought it up in his blog.
 

[slackline]

Slack Line.  I started this thread as a way to gain knowledge from other people (like bonjoy and who ever else has contributed) as opposed to put across my own opinion on this from my limited headpointing knowledge.  If this has been debated before on here or elsewhere then point me to it. It's obviously still a contentious issue though or Dave Mac wouldn't have brought it up in his blog.

I'm not going to do the leg work for you when  is as accessible to you as it is to me.

If you're after gaining opinions of others then cast your net wider and incorporate UKC, you'll find lots more there than on here about it and you'll also find that it ultimately boils down to the fact that different people have different opinions of what constitutes a "valid" ascent.  The key is that people are honest about the style in which they have done a climb so that others can judge for themselves whether this is an step-forwards or backwards in terms of the style in which a given route has been climbed.

Dave MacLeod wasn't making an issue out of pre-placing/placing on lead.  What he was doing is being honest about the style in which he made his ascent.

 

[roddersm]

Slack Line.  I started this thread as a way to gain knowledge from other people (like bonjoy and who ever else has contributed) as opposed to put across my own opinion on this from my limited headpointing knowledge.  If this has been debated before on here or elsewhere then point me to it. It's obviously still a contentious issue though or Dave Mac wouldn't have brought it up in his blog.

I'm not going to do the leg work for you when  is as accessible to you as it is to me.

If you're after gaining opinions of others then cast your net wider and incorporate UKC, you'll find lots more there than on here about it and you'll also find that it ultimately boils down to the fact that different people have different opinions of what constitutes a "valid" ascent.  The key is that people are honest about the style in which they have done a climb so that others can judge for themselves whether this is an step-forwards or backwards in terms of the style in which a given route has been climbed.

Dave MacLeod wasn't making an issue out of pre-placing/placing on lead.  What he was doing is being honest about the style in which he made his ascent.

 

Have googled this. Haven't found much about this topic. Even if I did I don't think theres anything wrong with bringing this up again as views and ethics are constantly evolving.

Yes I could have posted on a number of boards and might still do (but to be honest I'm bored of the topic already  ). I chose UKB because in my opinion there's more people who actually know what they're talking about on here. No disrespect to any other forums but this one is often a better source of knowledge due to the climbers who are on here.

Agreed on your points about different people and opinons, honesty etc.

My interpretation off Dave's comment that "there are still a few people pre-placing" is that he is saying that this is not a good approach, which is fair enough. But it is a view that seems in contrast with a number of other top climbers. As I have total respect for Dave Mac and the other climbers mentioned who seem to have a differing view on this it is not clear what the current accepted practice is in trad headpointing, at the cutting edge , or below.

Like you say its up to the individual to decide what the best approach is. However I don't think there's anything wrong with guaging what the public opinion is on an approach rather than going off and doing what you think is correct and then being judged by others afterwords.