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The E-grade Problem (Read 11141 times)

Andy F

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The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 09:56:31 am
I posted this of the other channel, but would like to know what the great and wise think:

Most people would agree that the E grade is having a bit off difficulty at the minute. In the car yesterday a couple of us came up with a possible solution.

Back in the day the E grade covered 2 (sometimes 3) French grades. They still do for totally safe climbs, so:

E5 = 7a+/7b
E6 = 7b+/7c/7c+
E7 = 8a/8a+
E8 = 8b/8b+
E9 = 8c/8c+
E10 = 9a/9a+

Now, following on from an e-mail recieved by Ian P from John Dunne it's suggested that the following apply.

Totally safe climbing fit's the above system.
If it's scary but safe add 1 E grade
If it's scary and serious add 2 E grades
If it's death add 3 E grades.

So for example:
Captain Invincible which is 8b but safe gets E8.
Indian Face, which is 7b+/7c climbing, i.e. E6 if safe, get's E9 as it's death.
Hell's Wall, which is 8a+ i.e. E7 if safe, get's E10 as it's death.
Rhapsody, which is 8c/8c+ i.e. E9 if safe, get's E11 as it's scary and serious.

As I don't know the french grade of Either Walk of Life or Echo Wall it's difficult to comment, but for Walk of Life to be E12 it's either got to be death 8c/8c+ or scary and serious 9a/9a+.


 

GCW

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#1 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 10:00:19 am
I'd say it's vey plausable, and probably as "accurate" as any formula will be.
Having said that, grades are so subjuctive I doubt any formula will be 100%, there will always be exceptions.  As an approximation it's probably reasonable.

Ru

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#2 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 10:28:01 am
And I posted this:

This is certainly the way that I've understood the E grade system for years, and as far as I can see it removes most of the difficulties experiences with the E grade when correctly applied. There's some ambigutity as to whether you think something is "scary and serious" or "death" but these anomalies get ironed out over the years. As you have pointed out, this way of understanding E grades also fits very well with many/most routes with established grades. A third advantage is that it clearly demonstrates how the E grade system works - the "E" or adjectival part gives overall difficulty, taking into account seriousness and physical difficulty. The numerical part defines the hardest move alone so that in combination you can guesstimate how much of the E part of the grade is due to seriousness and how much due to physical difficulty.

I should add some further things:

Firstly: the well rounded climber at any grade should be able to climb both the hard/sustained but safe end of the grade and the bold/dangerous end of the grade. So you want to know why people aren't onsighting E8's in this country? Well, how many people are anywhere near onsighting 8b/8b+ (which represents the safe end of the E8 grade)? Very few.

Secondly: the difficulties of correctly grading grit. It's always been very hard to pin a sport grade on grit routes, they're short, conditions dependent, and often morpho offering few intermediate hand or foot holds. They often have specific or trick moves. Also because the routes are short, with few gear placements it's hard to estimate how dangerous they are. Falling 15 ft into pile of rocks can be anywhere from uncomfortable to fatal depending how you fall. One person looking at the landing might think "I'll be fine", the next "I'll probably smash a few bones". Add these two difficulties together and you can get wildly different grades for the same 15 ft bit of rock.


nik at work

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#3 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 11:20:22 am
All seems pretty sensible. From a personal perspective I have no idea about sport grades so can't say whether the proposed boundaries are correct (but I will take it that they are) but the principle seems reasonable. I'd imagine lots of people will have applied trad grades in this fashion for years, albeit in a slightly less rigid and calculated fashion.

NOTE: It would probably be helpful to get rid of stupid grades also (HVS 6c anyone?) as these will add to confusion. Such routes should either be accepted as purely boulder problems (which most of the silly grade routes will be) or regraded sensibly. Clinging onto the trad grade or British technical grade for innapropriate problems only weakens the argument for having the trad grading system as it makes it appear ridiculous and unworkable, when in reality it is actually versatile and really rather good. As long as the limits of its applicability are understood it can actually cover a broad spectrum of climbing very well IMHO.

Tommy

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#4 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 04:54:11 pm

E5 = 7a+/7b
E6 = 7b+/7c/7c+
E7 = 8a/8a+
E8 = 8b/8b+
E9 = 8c/8c+
E10 = 9a/9a+

Now, following on from an e-mail recieved by Ian P from John Dunne it's suggested that the following apply.

Totally safe climbing fit's the above system.
If it's scary but safe add 1 E grade
If it's scary and serious add 2 E grades
If it's death add 3 E grades.

So for example:
Captain Invincible which is 8b but safe gets E8.
Indian Face, which is 7b+/7c climbing, i.e. E6 if safe, get's E9 as it's death.
Hell's Wall, which is 8a+ i.e. E7 if safe, get's E10 as it's death.
Rhapsody, which is 8c/8c+ i.e. E9 if safe, get's E11 as it's scary and serious.


Seems pretty sensible to me. Obvious exceptions are:

Dynamics of Change 8b, scary and serious (possibly more) is more like E10
Obsession Fatale 7a+, scary and serious E7
Partian Shot 8a+, scary but safe E8
Fagus Sylvatica F??, scary and serious, E9??

I've wondered if perhaps using a lowercase and uppercase 'E' might work for distinguishing those routes highballable (if you've got enough mates/pads/spotters. There's a whole world of difference between turning up as boulderer with tons of pads and doing something groundup and pushing the boat out on the lead on a 40m Lakes route for example.

e.g. Narcissus e6, artless e5, angel share e8

and then (as proper big routes are a whole world of difference)

Requiem E8, London Wall E5, Gaia E8, Lord of the Flies E6

Johnny Brown

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#5 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 08:00:51 pm
This all just seems to illustrate the fact that the E grade is actually fine. Which most of us knew all along, it just seems some folk need a new way of having it explained to them.

Kingy

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#6 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 08:35:20 pm
I agree totally with Andy's and Ru's posts above.

As an example, End of the Affair is 7b (equivalent to a very safe E5) or even 7b+ on toprope so add 3 grades as its 'death from the top floor' and you get E8. I don't agree that this one should be downgraded to E7. However, you only get the E8 tick if you flashed or onsighted it - I agree with Adam Wainright's take on things. (Dunno about groundup but would probably say no as the climbing is so easy compared to the 8b/8b+ of a safe E8).

I think it is still useful to apply sport grades to grit, its been done for years and although its more difficult than applying them to limestone routes, its still a useful exercise in my view.

Finally, I believe we should be seeing more english technical 7b on grit so these super-routes like the Groove etc get the ratings they deserve. Ie if a single move is V10 or 7c+ then perhaps 7b would be appropriate? We should try and avoid our aversion to going higher than 7a. Look at Warm Love, that is E6 7b and I would wager the crux of that would be somewhere around V9 or above, although I am only guessing here.

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#7 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 23, 2008, 08:44:04 pm
Most people would agree that the E grade is having a bit off difficulty at the minute.

Eh wot??

Johnny Brown

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#8 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 24, 2008, 08:17:47 am
The 7a/7b barrier has been done to death on here, sensible opinion equates it to somewhere around 8a/8a+. Not sure if there are any routes with 8a+ moves on them yet.

Andy F

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#9 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 24, 2008, 08:24:13 am
Hubble, 8B crux move?

Jaspersharpe

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#10 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 24, 2008, 08:28:49 am
No that's the whole crux sequence of Hubble that is given 8B/+, not one move.

Kingy

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#11 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 24, 2008, 09:29:34 am
If the crux of the Groove is font 7c+ like Kevin J suggests then that is 7b. Also, Warm Love is probably not Font 8a either. I think we should not be afraid of giving 7b to things lower than Font 8a if the E grade is to give a more accurate reflection of overall difficulty. Eg Superbloc could be E8 7b and that would give a much better indication of its extreme technicality than the bog standard E8 7a.

Fiend

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#12 Re: The E-grade Problem
November 24, 2008, 09:53:31 am
This all just seems to illustrate the fact that the E grade is actually fine.

LOL, exactly. This is how I've understood the E-grade working, thereabouts, for 15 years...

P.S. Kingy you're making a good point too.

Liam Copley

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#13 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 10, 2009, 01:42:36 pm
Well The Walk of Life, Dave gave that F8a/F8a+ and said the gear is OK and is in the right places. And he gave that solid E9 6c

« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 01:52:45 pm by Liam Copley »

Liam Copley

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#14 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 10, 2009, 01:54:28 pm
Well, I dont know if he said it was OK, but I dont think the gear is particualary bad. He said you cna take your hands of on virtually every move! I guess E9 is spot on.

Doylo

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#15 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 11, 2009, 10:47:53 pm
If the crux of the Groove is font 7c+ like Kevin J suggests then that is 7b.

Never done a font 7c+ with a 7b move!!!?

Sloper

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#16 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 12, 2009, 08:35:00 am
Andy, I think the back in the day comments reflect the fact that historically we didn't understand sports grades, I'd say there are plenty of E5/6 routes that would get 5/low 6 sports grades.

My view is that one simply cannot correlate sports grades to E grades and that there's no problem with E grades just that people aren't thinking through their proper application.

I think Ru has it about spot on as to why grades can differ so much.

dave

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#17 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 12, 2009, 09:10:41 am
you can compare them but only on comparable routes. for example you could probably give a fairly meaningful sport grade for the climbing on say left wall at brimham (i.e. steep, long, pumpy etc), but not for say something like Thin Air at the roaches, since we certailny don't have any sport routes like that, and I doubt the french do either.

Kingy

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#18 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 12, 2009, 09:34:02 am
If the crux of the Groove is font 7c+ like Kevin J suggests then that is 7b.

Never done a font 7c+ with a 7b move!!!?

No, but maybe there should be more gradings like this. Lord knows the British 7a band is wide enough as it is. I think this new approach would assist with the more accurate grading of grit routes using the English technical grade. Eg how can the New Statesman and the wall to the left be the same English technical grade or even 7a and 7a/7b?

Anyway, this is so last year.  :P

Norton Sharley

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#19 Re: The E-grade Problem
January 12, 2009, 01:29:17 pm
Ru  :agree:

 

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