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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: SA Chris on October 31, 2012, 12:22:13 pm

Title: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on October 31, 2012, 12:22:13 pm
I noticed mention of this on the R&R FB page. Not seen it been discussed on here before, apologies if it has?

http://www.armaid.com/rockclimbers.php (http://www.armaid.com/rockclimbers.php)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: abarro81 on October 31, 2012, 12:25:19 pm
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/review-armaid-elbow-massage-device.html (http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/review-armaid-elbow-massage-device.html)
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: andy_e on October 31, 2012, 12:54:05 pm
I thought this thread was going to be about a NW Scotland venue.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: rosmat on October 31, 2012, 12:59:52 pm
I think it more likely to alleviate the symptoms rather than actually treat the cause.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: lukeh on October 31, 2012, 01:18:42 pm
Being sold by TCA (http://www.tcaclimbingshop.com/), who posted this review on facebook:

Quote from: TCA
A nice review of Armaid by super-alpiniste matt Helliker:

Im not new to finger injuries, over the past 15 years i've had countless, I know how to deal with them and the recovery time it takes.

After a blown out A2/A3, 5 weeks ago whilst going strong, I popped another A2 pulley! I've gone through the standard processes of recovery but what's been different this time round has been the use of the Armaid, and without doubt this has sped up my recovery. Increasing blood flow to the area has brought my recovery time on by 2 weeks.

Previous to the injury I had been climbing and training a huge amount and I believe that this time round the injury was due to forearm tension, as i'd visited physio a number of times to get them released. I think that if i'd been using the Armaid a few months earlier I would have been able to avoid this injury and to not have been put back 6 weeks!

I will be using mine much more in future, get one or get injured!!

Matt

Looking forward to trying one out for myself.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: slackline on October 31, 2012, 01:29:39 pm
"I believe"

"I think"


Pah, testimonials and reviews are all well and good, but they are anecdotal and a poor basis for "proving" something works.

Dave MacLeods review seems sensible in so much as it might help alleviate symptoms but doesn't address the underlying problem, but still lacks evidence to support the claim that it will actually alleviate symptoms.

Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on October 31, 2012, 01:46:18 pm
Being sold by TCA (http://www.tcaclimbingshop.com/), who posted this review on facebook:


Sorry, my mistake.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on October 31, 2012, 01:55:47 pm
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/review-armaid-elbow-massage-device.html (http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/review-armaid-elbow-massage-device.html)

Good science there cheers. Also first time I looked at the pricetag!! £95!
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: abarro81 on October 31, 2012, 02:29:33 pm
Also first time I looked at the pricetag!! £95!

My thoughts exactly. When I saw it on the review i thought I might get one for recovery more than anything else as I find a bit of massage helps.. at 95 quid I think I'll stick to rolling a tennis ball up and down my forearm or using my hand and some oily moisturiser. Ahem.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Three Nine on October 31, 2012, 02:47:04 pm
Just prod it with one of your dildos.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: lukeh on October 31, 2012, 02:49:58 pm
Pah, testimonials and reviews are all well and good, but they are anecdotal and a poor basis for "proving" something works.

Dave MacLeods review seems sensible in so much as it might help alleviate symptoms but doesn't address the underlying problem, but still lacks evidence to support the claim that it will actually alleviate symptoms.

Requiring absolute proof is a slow way to make progress in my opinion, following on from Macleod's point in his most recent blog that "The deeper you read into the detail of each field, the less seems reliable." The SCIENCE of sports medicine is not yet complete. The best we can do is use educated best guesses and logic. (This could be why I did not get along with academic research.)

In this case that might be along the lines of, blood flow increases healing, massage increases blood flow, this product massages...

I'm not saying that I think it'll be a magic wand and my arms will suddenly fix themselves, but as a part of a mixed method approach to solving various problems it seems a good bet (although that price tag does make it slightly more risky!!)

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws though.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: slackline on October 31, 2012, 03:38:57 pm

Requiring absolute proof is a slow way to make progress in my opinion, following on from Macleod's point in his most recent blog that "The deeper you read into the detail of each field, the less seems reliable." The SCIENCE of sports medicine is not yet complete. The best we can do is use educated best guesses and logic. (This could be why I did not get along with academic research.)

In this case that might be along the lines of, blood flow increases healing, massage increases blood flow, this product massages...

I'm not saying that I think it'll be a magic wand and my arms will suddenly fix themselves, but as a part of a mixed method approach to solving various problems it seems a good bet (although that price tag does make it slightly more risky!!)

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws though.

And my take is that I'd want to know if its any more effective (both clinically and statistically) than abbaro81's hand cream and tennis ball regime at increasing the blood flow etc. etc.

Its one of the reasons why here in the UK there are Advertising Standards.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: biscuit on October 31, 2012, 06:05:33 pm
Maybe, maybe not. But if having forked out for it makes you use it 2ce a day and it does a better job than an uneducated idiot poking around with his thumb where it hurts, or waving dumbells around at the wrong angle, ( that's me by the way ) it might be worth a punt.

I get sore elbows but if i have the time to train i will get on the fingerboard or my training board and probably not get round to doing what i should do - my elbow exercises.

There's a corresponding thread on UKC where a guy says he uses it for 1 min in the morning and 5 mins after training.

My wallet is staying shut though at that price unless this thread and the UKC one become full of praise for it and the pope declares a miracle cure.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: slackline on October 31, 2012, 06:12:02 pm
Maybe, maybe not. But if having forked out for it makes you use it 2ce a day and it does a better job than an uneducated idiot poking around with his thumb where it hurts, or waving dumbells around at the wrong angle, ( that's me by the way ) it might be worth a punt.

I get sore elbows but if i have the time to train i will get on the fingerboard or my training board and probably not get round to doing what i should do - my elbow exercises.

You already have the answer to your sore elbows then don't you (and it isn't spending money on gimmicky products).
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: tj on October 31, 2012, 07:24:07 pm
Perhaps they could form a "buy them both for £300" deal with Accapi, although I suppose if you used them both at the same time there may be a risk of tearing a hole in the time-space continuum...
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: iwasmexican on October 31, 2012, 07:30:11 pm
all its really doing is stimulating bloodflow really isnt it...? maybe spending £95 on itd force you to actually use it
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2012, 09:30:38 am
Perhaps they could form a "buy them both for £300" deal with Accapi, although I suppose if you used them both at the same time there may be a risk of tearing a hole in the time-space continuum...

That just plain daft. If you wear an Accapi top you don't get injuries, and therefore there is no need for one of these.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: rodma on November 01, 2012, 09:55:43 am
all its really doing is stimulating bloodflow really isnt it...? maybe spending £95 on itd force you to actually use it

It's an easy way of performing self massage, which is more than just increasing bloodflow.

I still go for using my thumb and then flexing wrist to perform massage, really effective!!! I can see why this device makes this more simple.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: tomtom on November 01, 2012, 10:44:57 am
I thought this thread was going to be about a NW Scotland venue.

I wondered if a B was missing...

Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Paul T on November 01, 2012, 01:43:10 pm
My own experience with cripping elbow problems, rehabilitation and the use of Armaid was the reason we decided to import them into the UK. I've written a short account on the TCA blog.

http://www.theclimbingacademy.com/blog/2012/11/1/armaid-the-tca-story-by-paul-twomey.html (http://www.theclimbingacademy.com/blog/2012/11/1/armaid-the-tca-story-by-paul-twomey.html)
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: biscuit on November 01, 2012, 02:56:07 pm

You already have the answer to your sore elbows then don't you (and it isn't spending money on gimmicky products).
[/quote]

I know that and you know that but still they don't get done as often as they should :(

 Mine are manageable at the moment though. Sometimes something that is easy to use and you have bought specifically for the task, or that you can use on the walk in/out of the crag, makes it more likely you will do what we all know you should. If you get my drift.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: slackline on November 01, 2012, 02:58:23 pm
Sometimes something that is easy to use and you have bought specifically for the task, or that you can use on the walk in/out of the crag, makes it more likely you will do what we all know you should. If you get my drift.

You have to justify spending your money somehow.  :P
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Probes on November 01, 2012, 03:01:33 pm
Interesting reading this thread, its seems that the armaid is having success when all other methods seems to fail. To be honest i dont quite understand exactly why... yet? Ive been battling with tennis elbow for about 9 months now, and its was only following a conversation with a physio that specialises in ankle injuries that i got to grips with excentrics and the levels of exertion you need to make them work. The degrees of loading he uses with ankle/achilles problems is unreal. So after messing about with reverse curls and the dumbell twist thing and making no real progress I started with the rolly bar method and stuck some considerable weight on it. The improvement in pain happened super quick and now 3 weeks later its virtually gone. So shocked ive been with it that ive started making a few to flog.
What ive gained from self treatment and what it made me think is whether the exact location of where the problem is needs to be determined for the appropriate exercise... eg ive pin pointed mine to about 1 cm up the tendon from the 'nobble'  :blink: on my elbow, and when I try all other methods apart from the rolly bar it doesnt seem to really load this bit. If the main problem was the other side of the 'nobble'  :blink: im sure the dumble method would work better.
Personally ive found it very hard to get a good prognosis and it still seems a bit hit and miss subject. Its hard to get the right advice and I think a lot of people try the wrong excentric exercises.

I also find it interesting that the armaid seems to be successful in most scenarios being mainly a massage device as opposed to full on excentric stretching the tendon style treatment. Kind of goes against all the info and advice Ive had... I wonder if its targetting something the others are missing? surely just massage isnt the fix?....  id be keen to try it out.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Serpico on November 01, 2012, 03:15:48 pm
So, nothing to do with aid for Armenia then?
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2012, 03:21:51 pm
Nah, unless they have another earthquake they can fuck off.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: spinmaster on November 01, 2012, 03:26:02 pm
My experience of the armaid is that is helps take the stress off the tendon in the elbow by reducing the strain on the tendon caused by overtight muscles. Eccentrics are used to stress the tendon itself to introduce stress on it to start the regeneration process. So both work in combination. Eccentrics in my experience if you still have very tight flexors just make the flexors tighter and the elbow worse.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: biscuit on November 01, 2012, 04:53:30 pm
Sometimes something that is easy to use and you have bought specifically for the task, or that you can use on the walk in/out of the crag, makes it more likely you will do what we all know you should. If you get my drift.

You have to justify spending your money somehow.  :P

I guess that's why my wallet is staying in my pocket at the moment. I have more important things, like 5.10 knee pads, to save up for ;D
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Paul T on November 22, 2012, 06:03:18 pm
Here are Rob LeBreton's forearms after hitting his trigger points with Armaid. Mine weren't too disimilar in the black and blue department for the first few days either. Thanks to Rob for use of the image.
(http://www.theclimbingacademy.com/storage/tca-blog-robs-arms.jpg)
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: fatboySlimfast on November 22, 2012, 07:19:43 pm
i thought it was a fizzy drink
(http://www.agbarr.co.uk/agbarr/newsite/ces_brands.nsf/images/2EF36BB2EEB108438025748F003976A2/$file/Barr_Limeade_750ml_FS.jpg)
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: tomtom on November 22, 2012, 08:25:28 pm
Here are Rob LeBreton's forearms after hitting his trigger points with Armaid. Mine weren't too disimilar in the black and blue department for the first few days either. Thanks to Rob for use of the image.
(http://www.theclimbingacademy.com/storage/tca-blog-robs-arms.jpg)

Shit - erm - is that much bruising a good thing????
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: galpinos on November 23, 2012, 09:45:33 am
Shit - erm - is that much bruising a good thing????

My thoughts exactly....
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: SA Chris on November 26, 2012, 10:30:41 am
Likewise; I fail to see how something bruising your arms like that can be seen as a positive development; hey look at the fantastic internal bleeding this great machine has caused!
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Guy on November 29, 2012, 02:25:01 pm
Save your notes and any internal injuries

http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/#comment-152 (http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/#comment-152)

Tried this and worked an absolute dream  Seems Physio at TCA also agrees

http://dannybrownphysio.com/blog-2/ (http://dannybrownphysio.com/blog-2/)

 :icon_beerchug: Big time to Tom for this.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Paul T on December 13, 2012, 10:09:35 am
Likewise; I fail to see how something bruising your arms like that can be seen as a positive development; hey look at the fantastic internal bleeding this great machine has caused!

I spoke to both Nina Leonfellner and Danny Brown about the cause of this and they both independently concluded that this reaction and flushing was the start of the healing process. It happened with my very first use of Armaid and has not been repeated on subsequent sessions. My first session was fairly light and I'm sure that  it is not muscular bruising.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: shark on December 13, 2012, 11:24:07 am
Save your notes and any internal injuries

http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/#comment-152 (http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/#comment-152)

Tried this and worked an absolute dream  Seems Physio at TCA also agrees

http://dannybrownphysio.com/blog-2/ (http://dannybrownphysio.com/blog-2/)

 :icon_beerchug: Big time to Tom for this.

Didn't work for me. I think you just have to experiment. Not all elbow injuries or people are the same. I find running cold water works is consistently the best for me. 
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: Paul T on December 13, 2012, 03:40:57 pm
Quote
Didn't work for me. I think you just have to experiment. Not all elbow injuries or people are the same. I find running cold water works is consistently the best for me.

This was something that I also tried many years ago. As Shark says it all depends on the nature of your injury. It is certainly  a good stretch to hit the bicep insertion but has no real affect on the brachioradialis area of the forearm where my troubles lie.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: shark on December 13, 2012, 03:57:15 pm
Quote
Didn't work for me. I think you just have to experiment. Not all elbow injuries or people are the same. I find running cold water works is consistently the best for me.

This was something that I also tried many years ago. As Shark says it all depends on the nature of your injury. It is certainly  a good stretch to hit the bicep insertion but has no real affect on the brachioradialis area of the forearm where my troubles lie.

Because that is quite deep I found that freezing water in a yoghurt pot and pressing it in where it is sore just before bed cleared it up fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Armaid
Post by: TheTwig on February 04, 2015, 03:06:07 am
I know it's an old thread but thought I would post my experience with Armaid here. (It's my first post, hi!)

History: Had pretty bad lateral epicondylitis (self diagnosed tennis elbow) in both elbows, particularly the right, as well as mild carpal tunnel (Self diagnosed) in the right hand. Had the carpal tunnel with varying symptoms over 5 years and the tennis elbow about 1 and a half years with varying symptoms too. Climbing was basically impossible without at least 4/10 pain, all the way up to 8/10 pain for 24 hrs afterwards. Extension at the wrist was basically painful 24/7. I tried combinations of icing, massage with lacrosse balls, long periods of non-climbing (up to a month), stretching of the various muscles etc, as well as doing the extensor/flexbar twist  with only some small relief from the pain.

Lacrosse ball massage combined with using the flexbar (see Tyler Twist technique) was somewhat effective but my forearm muscles and tendons remained massively stiff and knotted and I physically could not put enough force on the area using the lacrosse ball or other objects to actually release all the tissue, and the tyler twist/eccentric exercises only seemed partially effective.

Anyway at a loose end I did some research on the net and ended up importing an Armaid with extra attachments from Sweden (TCA seem to be out of stock). This cost a little bit more than usual (not much though) but I was desperate so hey.

Results so far: I've been doing 20 minutes of massage and trigger point therapy with the Armaid with the 2 softest rollers (black, grey) and had dramatic results straight away. Absolutely no background pain other than a slightly 'bruised' feeling if I do it too hard. I've been doing combination of massage/trigger point therapy/flexbar exercises for 2 weeks and already noticed an increase in strength, and much less pain after climbing (climbing same intensity as before). All the tissue in my forearms is way less tense and generally I'm feeling pretty happy :)

Anyway thought I would share my story, if anyone else is struggling with crippling elbow/forearm pain and can afford it then it be the solution. I saw on Armaid's website that the guy took it to a few comps in the USA to let climbers try it, somewhat surprised it hasn't been done over here.

Anyway, laters!
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