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the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: shark on January 03, 2013, 12:32:00 pm

Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 03, 2013, 12:32:00 pm
http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/blogs/news/7110450-2012-wrap-up (http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/blogs/news/7110450-2012-wrap-up)

As an aside i have witnesses or unedited video (or both) for all my problems i’ve put up this year (as i’m aware i’ve put up more new blocs this year than si o' connor ever did and he churned them out! which might flag up the bullshit radar) End Sequence is the only exception as the camera was left in Katie's car and she had a meeting in Newcastle. I do however have the footage from the session before with Katie and Ben when i dropped the very last hard move on the out swing and i’d be more than happy to head up there again if it was an issue. Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact. Strong developers cherish undone lines alot more than done ones as they are bloody hard to find.Thankfully bouldering seems to be moving in the direction of it not being taboo to ask for proof.


My bold. Are we there yet ? Good thing if so.

The rest of the blog is superb BTW
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 03, 2013, 12:36:20 pm
Dans got a fucking God complex
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 03, 2013, 12:40:04 pm
Do you have a scale? He's got to be a demi-god at least.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 03, 2013, 01:01:01 pm
Quote
Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact.

Although this would seem to be counter to the most notorious recent case. Why is Britain so obsessed with using the term 'strong' instead of 'good'? As dense will tell you, being strong is barely half the story...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: scottygillery on January 03, 2013, 01:05:11 pm
Dan's boring.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 03, 2013, 01:10:30 pm
Why is Britain so obsessed with using the term 'strong' instead of 'good'? As dense will tell you, being strong is barely half the story...

It might not be being used in the literal sense, more the "doing something well" type of strong?  :shrug:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Three Nine on January 03, 2013, 01:13:15 pm
Was gonna say, this is bullshit:

'Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact.'

Also, i'm sure Dan tells some lies, even if he hasn't fibbed about any of his ascents.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 03, 2013, 01:13:35 pm
Quote
Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact.

Although this would seem to be counter to the most notorious recent case.

Rich Simpson was afterall famous for being as weak as a pint of homeopathic lager.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 03, 2013, 01:13:52 pm
The dagger is half the story! The whole is much greater than the sum etc. but yes I agree with johhny
I was speaking with mike Adams the other day and he is now agreeing with dan and bonjoy about video proof of first /hard ascents now. I can completely see where they're coming from but it doesn't mean I agree with it. As far as I'm concerned you can video yourself if you want, some people do this much more readily than others, but x person doesn't need to do it cos dan or mike or a.n.other want unedited proof. Sometimes x person might not have got into climbing to prove themselves to y person.
This leads us to the state of things of someone being doubted or not etc but I'd rather that than the alternative, and it gives us something to talk about in the pub
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: MJC on January 03, 2013, 01:22:28 pm
The only time there needs to be video proof is if the ascentionist actually gives a crap what people think about his or her ascent.  Although if it's being recorded somewhere then it makes sense.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: cowboyhat on January 03, 2013, 01:53:30 pm
Exactly, its only relevent if you are minded of what other people think.

The can of worms there though is potentially impinging on someone elses livelihood or more importantly if there is a safety issue.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: tim palmer on January 03, 2013, 02:12:10 pm
The only time there needs to be video proof is if the ascentionist actually gives a crap what people think about his or her ascent. 
? or if the ascensionist stands to or has made financial/material gains as a result of hard repeats/first ascents? 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 03, 2013, 02:24:00 pm
The only time there needs to be video proof is if the ascentionist actually gives a crap what people think about his or her ascent. 
? or if the ascensionist stands to or has made financial/material gains as a result of hard repeats/first ascents? 

Or if the ascent is something of particular historical/local/national significance.

But lets not forget the main thing about this type of thing, and that is that a climber builds up a level of credibility over time, and the more credible they are, the less evidence is to be expected. For instance if a previously unheard of johnny-come-lately rocks up in the grouse claiming a brand new 8b+, you might want to know a few details, spotters, videos etc. But if Dave Graham rocks up in the grouse then firstly you buy him a pint, and secondly you give up your seat by the fire so he can sit down, and thirdly you take his word for it.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 03, 2013, 02:29:04 pm
Yep by strong i also mean good. But the same point stands within a few seconds of seeing the JB machine flow over the gritstone (and drop the last move on the flash) its obvious he's a smooth operator. But its all the better reason for climbers who's form varies wildly between nails FA's and lots of bad days to record the better days.

I couldnt care less about whether people video themselves or not on repeats, which is most peoples climbing. I just think that if a hard new problem is going to go in a new guide/ in the news it shouldn't be hard to get some proof of it being done nowadays as we shouldn't still be sending climbers on wild goose chases in 2013. I dont care about past problems quite as much as it was obviously much harder to video things in the past and its tight to put people on the spot. I dont put all my vids on the web as it feel lame, but its important to have them there for when the problems written up. Obviously this is a self centered view point as i put alot of effort into many Fa's as do Mike Jonboy and loads of other people and its just a bit shit and puts you off when the blocs get messed about with.
E.g  (past example used in pantons thread) Traci lords sitter has never seen 8A+, and the stand was never 7C+ and is hard for 8A greg downgraded it because the stand was flashed and said to be piss and the sitter was put up on the same day, with much harder beta than is needed. Traci had 2 repeats this year and a lot of people have tried it (B-free took 4 sessions and was climbing really well, well enough to look alot better and more competent on that dice prow proj in Ireland than another famous attempter). If you take things like this and O' connors reclimbed kentmere problems such as KOTT sit getting the same grade as soul fusion in yorkshire (a classic new problem put up with witnesses) There's clearly 2 systems operating. There is also a huge difference between grade varation in the lakes & county which as far as i know is 100% mystery problem free as whenever you get on one of Malc, Andy, Moffat or Moons problems up there they all make sense in relation to one another and i can easily tie in my new problems with their efforts.
Bygones can be bygones thats fine and alot of the whack problems will get reclimbed eventually but if we could please see sense and have a system of not writing up some persons whimsy who fancies being a top climber for a few years.
Simpson only ever climbed one new problem on grit (a link up so safe in that adds no new moves, in a session after flashing James's other problems) I reclimbed it via a totally different method (albeit from a foreshortened/ more logical/ lazier start) I worked it with RY, Bransby and Caff, none of us could understand the logic of his beta (usual theme, way harder weird sequence to get into and have to be really strong!) and we all ended up using the gaston method. I've got a vid of this too but never uploaded it, if Cofe asked for it when he was putting the guide together i could happily have sent it over or said that Ry and Rich were present.
It'd just be nice to repeat problems knowing they've been done thats all i guess. Pretty boring but i like being boring.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 03, 2013, 02:57:37 pm
E.g  (past example used in pantons thread) Traci lords sitter has never seen 8A+, and the stand was never 7C+ and is hard for 8A greg downgraded it because the stand was flashed and said to be piss and the sitter was put up on the same day, with much harder beta than is needed. Traci had 2 repeats this year and a lot of people have tried it (B-free took 4 sessions and was climbing really well.......

Sorry Dan, I don't quite understand what you're saying here.  Didn't Gaskins suggest 8B for Traci Lords sit?  I seem to remember Greg graded the stand up as hard 7C+ before Gaskins climbed it?  Although Greg is still the phantom downgrader.....  ;)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 03, 2013, 03:01:19 pm
Yep, I don't understand either. Why the gaskins example? It doesn't seem to lead anywhere, unless ive completely missed the point as well. As for using Si o' as an example, again I don't understand, no one in control of their faculties believed a word of it, same with scotty boy bullshit.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Fiend on January 03, 2013, 03:05:32 pm
Dan is inspiring, having videos of hard new problems especially in different areas is inspiring, where the fuck is the footage of that thing at Carrock Fell and I will read this thread in a mo ;)

Edit: Read the thread, no other comments except please post up more videos dan cheers.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 03, 2013, 03:18:31 pm
The dagger is half the story! The whole is much greater than the sum etc. but yes I agree with johhny
I was speaking with mike Adams the other day and he is now agreeing with dan and bonjoy about video proof of first /hard ascents now. I can completely see where they're coming from but it doesn't mean I agree with it. As far as I'm concerned you can video yourself if you want, some people do this much more readily than others, but x person doesn't need to do it cos dan or mike or a.n.other want unedited proof. Sometimes x person might not have got into climbing to prove themselves to y person.
This leads us to the state of things of someone being doubted or not etc but I'd rather that than the alternative, and it gives us something to talk about in the pub
I agree, shock horror! Videoing or not is entirely up to the individual. However, in this day and age nobody has any cause to complain if they do a bunch of things and nobody believes them because of some combination of being an unknown/doubtworthy entity and not keeping a record/having a witness. Climbing has seen too many bullshitters over the years to hand out unconditional credit to every and all claims. This is not a demand for video evidence, it is a statement that it's okay for people to say 'I don't believe you unless you can prove it' to people who act like bullshitters of the past. How the questioned climber responds is entirely up to them.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Dave Flanagan on January 03, 2013, 04:00:14 pm
... (B-free took 4 sessions and was climbing really well, well enough to look alot better and more competent on that dice prow proj in Ireland than another famous attempter).

There seems to be a subtext in these recent debates about proof that I'm not aware of. Something must of re-ignited that debate. Most of the rumours don't make their way across the water. PM me your slander.

In the case of the Dice Project I don't think it's fair to read too much into a few seconds of video Glenmac files part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuTTR6zIy8g#)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nigel on January 03, 2013, 04:06:27 pm
In answer to OP: of course it shouldn’t be taboo to ask for proof, I don’t think it ever was.

It’s a funny one though isn’t it, because the majority of well known climbers are so above reproach that you wouldn’t bother asking e.g. Caff, Ry, BB Guns, PRob, Dan, Mike, Micky P, etc. (even though you know they probably did film it / have witnesses). Like Dave says this is because they have a track record of being uber wads day in day out, they are at the top of the tree for a good reason. On the flip side the people you would like to ask for evidence (I won’t mention names this time, apart from Dense RE penis size) are obviously going to take it as a tacit statement of disbelief and tell you to fuck off.

As an aside I remember Greg giving Traci Lords 7c+ (or V10 as we called it back then) from the off, though I may be wrong.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 03, 2013, 04:11:52 pm
What Nige said.

The only time there needs to be video proof is if the ascentionist actually gives a crap what people think about his or her ascent.  Although if it's being recorded somewhere then it makes sense.

This is the nub of it, though I wouldn't have worded it like that. If you really 'don't care what others think' then don't tell anybody (I'm not convinced anyone actually falls into this category).

If you want your efforts to be added to the historical record, then be expected to either provide proof, or to establish yourself as beyond question. As has been discussed here ad nauseam, 'proof' need not be a video, but its useful if you're on your tod.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 03, 2013, 05:18:38 pm
I'll upload the carrock vid for you fiend. its not great which is why i just gave it to greg, its in 2 takes as was on my tod that day and did it from high and got close from low) On the day i did it there were loads of people about and i did it second go of the day (dave and elsie from beastmaker and 2 guys from kendal) so no one got the camera out.

From what i can recall (and Greg can correct me if i'm wrong) Greg was tempted to grade Traci 8A but within a week of him doing it Gaskins had flashed the stand and did the sit the same sesh at 8A+ think greg nagged him upto 8B soon after (http://lakesbloc.com/component/content/article/214.html (http://lakesbloc.com/component/content/article/214.html)) so he gave it 7C+. I've stuck up for Johns efforts more than once in my time including infront of Gossip with windisch where i was told his ridiculous sequence. but i am saying that he's a great example of not knowing the hell what's actually gone on. No witnesses or beta and just pics holding positions on the really hard problems. i am aware he's a good climber and like i say this is a spot of playing devils advocate with a problem which would be 8C anywhere else in the world (easily 8B into a single move 8A from sit) my point is that when you are that strong to do climbs that well, fair enough you might have a bad day (e.g in that ireland vid he must be having a REALLY bad/ relaxed day) but it'd be nice if we had a video of just one of those good days. As it stands all the hardest G problems in the country have no ascent videos or (publicy known) witnesses and wildly varying grades in relation to one another (anesthesia compared to shadowplay) no one elses do really, if i try an 8B of moons or Mike's it usually feels pretty close to the benchmark. It's amazing if they are all outstanding efforts but really crap for the UK scene if they weren't, all it would take is for an uncut vid on one problem to go a long way to sorting it out but in the past this was a lot harder to do (mind you many people managed fine). But if it was more acceptable to ask for proof then maybe Greg wouldn't have got rebuffed in such a way when he did broach the subject.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 03, 2013, 05:28:28 pm
As it stands all the hardest G problems in the country have no ascent videos or (publicy known) witnesses

A few have come forward over the years (and on here) who have bumped in to John and seen him do Walk Away ss in two halves with ease etc etc. whilst out at the crag. There's about as much substance to this 'evidential' comment as a John Bishop standup routine though sorry.

Dan, I'd love also to see your video of Home. I admire your devotion to the small hold.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 03, 2013, 05:41:06 pm
I think you've got to take the evidence within the context of the times. If Gaskins popped up now with this kind of behaviour he'd be laughed out of the park and rightly so. But at the time it was standard behaviour, so was/ is accepted. You can't have the guy as a big enigma without a lot of uncertainty.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 03, 2013, 05:46:14 pm
OK Dan, I see what your point was.  Looking back through LakesBloc I can see where the confusion has arisen, Stand up report (http://www.lakesbloc.com/news/news-2004/68-traci-lords-.html) and Sitter report (http://www.lakesbloc.com/news/news-2004/69-traci-lords-sds.html).

We can debate all day long, but I suspect that other than the Stick It footage there will be no proof per se of these ascents, in a similar way of Sam's repeats.

I suppose the flip side of all this is why not film these FAs now that video recording is so widespread on phones etc etc
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 03, 2013, 06:01:44 pm
Home vid: (it'll need 30mins to render)

https://vimeo.com/56703275

My mate Cal saw john on the stand to walk away looking strong but not doing it, i know of quite a few anecdotes like this (but no definite i saw him do XYZ) i'm also good mates with a lot of strong Germans, none of whom believe him as he was on such bad form when in bocks presence and amazing form when not. Like i say i'm happily on the fence about it and its been inspiring to get strong enough to try these things. It'd just be nice to regrade them once they get reclimbed knowing they got done years ago rather than climbing someones positions they've claimed as a problem as many are undoubtedly still the hardest problems in the world and at the minute they are more of an enigma than a shining example of what can be done with a lot of dedication. funnily enough whether he's told porkies or not Johns still been great for pushing british bouldering. Its a case of reiterating what the others have said here too, from now on it'd be great if things can be developed based on more than belief alone as its not a problem to sort out anymore and it helps the bouldering massively in the long run. The point i was making on my blog was that for this to be fair on people who write guidebooks (as its not a popular job asking for proof) its only fair if i provide some proof if asked for it without kicking off (most obviously give it willingly prior to a guide being written) this makes it fairer on writers (or web/ news reports/databases)rather than them having to single people out which ends up looking like a witch hunt for newbies and recluses.

GCW and Johnny both hit nail on the head in those last posts.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Pantontino on January 03, 2013, 06:11:14 pm
I am also glad that it is now more acceptable to ask for proof (although experience has taught me not to expect a reasonable response from everybody).

I look back on how accepting I used to be ten, fifteen years ago and realise that I was more than a touch gullible.

As for John Gaskins - a long time ago I wrote a fawning profile for OTE (which is on UKB somewhere I think. I did it this way partly because I was reacting to the bitching I heard from some quarters and partly because I was in awe of what he had achieved.

Obviously I would approach the subject in a more critical manner now. That doesn't mean I doubt him though, I don't, just that nowadays I would actively push to see footage or go out of my way to speak to more witnesses etc. the point being that it is not about what I think or feel, rather it is about how it might appear to the broader climbing community. If I could dial back time, I would have advised him to produce footage just to boost his credibility and silence the doubters.

For the record, I've seen John climb on quite a few occasions. For example, I saw him do all the moves on Walk Away sds (except landing the break at the top which I think might have been wet?). He always seemed really strong (the only comparable 'steel' that I had seen came from Ben and Malcolm) and I did not detect any bullshit. His recollections and descriptions of what he had done were always very specific and detailed. He just seemed credible.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Pantontino on January 03, 2013, 06:14:40 pm
The point i was making on my blog was that for this to be fair on people who write guidebooks (as its not a popular job asking for proof) its only fair if i provide some proof if asked for it without kicking off (most obviously give it willingly prior to a guide being written) this makes it fairer on writers (or web/ news reports/databases)rather than them having to single people out which ends up looking like a witch hunt for newbies and recluses.

Tell me about it...  ::)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 03, 2013, 06:29:30 pm
A few years back we were at the Llanberis film festive thing a year when it snowed. Mostly the whole thing was shit but I think it was at this event where I remember seeing a Gaskins talk which was good and he had a lot of photos I've not seen published elsewhere - and unless my memory is totally failing me I have a feeling that he may have shown a video/s too, but I can't remember what of. I do remember at the time being pleasantly surprised as because of his incogito reputation I was just expecting some vague talking and a few photos we'd all seen published in OTE or whatever.

So hopefully this concrete proof puts the issue to bed.

On a more serious note, there must have been people who've seen him climbing stuff at the Tor when he was trying the BB gate project. I saw him there once and he traversed past us along the base of Sardine.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 03, 2013, 07:09:50 pm
I saw him on BG, he was falling at the 2nd bolt. Dans right about his problems, they are enigmas and don't sit in with the other 8b and upwards problems in the UK from all the other protagonists. Take that thing on Pill Box, done in a sesh and graded 8a+/b. defo 8b+ compared the most other problems in the world. In the UK there's everybody else then gaskins!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 03, 2013, 08:02:40 pm
Basically this has descended into a gaskins hunt which it's obviously not supposed to be. Johnny is right again, we have to deal with the time we're in now not something that happened years ago. Chris i read from your post that you doubt johnny in the first couple of lines then worship him in the next. Dan has gone from being the biggest believer, apart from Greg, to now sounding like he has misgivings. Dave a photo doesn't mean much, a couple of people I know who went to johns talk said it was the most boring thing they've sat thro and came away less than inspired, however he's supposed to climb not talk in front of a crowd. None of our conjecture will prove anything one way or the other. Obviously the welsh guys have a few in-house issues with each other.
Which all quite obviously points to having video ascent of everything but that is not climbing, that is sport.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 03, 2013, 09:16:28 pm
I don't doubt him but I can see why some people have reservations. Il Pirata is the worst 8c in the world, go G!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 03, 2013, 09:27:10 pm
..
Which all quite obviously points to having video ascent of everything but that is not climbing, that is sport.
Sport climbing


As long as there's kudos to be had for climbing hard (or claiming to) and an underlying attitude of honouring someone's word, it's highly likely there'll be bullshitters/people with issues who will be tempted to exaggerate the truth.
 
I think it boils down to which bit of climbing culture is the more important to preserve - the culture of honouring another's word and keeping some things unknowable; or the culture of recording accurate first ascent histories. If there was no more or less kudos shown toward an 8B boulder than to a 4+ boulderer it wouldn't be such a thorny issue. Likewise if first ascent histories didn't exist it wouldn't be an issue. Ascents would then just be rumours and folklore. And guide writers/magazine editors/news website spraylords et al would have less to justify their existence.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: scottygillery on January 03, 2013, 10:16:50 pm
Johhny G was a liar
Rich was a liar
Bock's a liar
Dunning's a liar
Dunne's a fat liar
Ste Mc uses trees on routes
Si O doesn't exsist
Scott Mclenan doesn't even own a bike
Blackpool Sam is too big to be a climber
Dave Graham dabs and lies
Dai got trolled
Heason is a punter who climbs 8b
Pearson is a media toad
Malc did hubble on speed
and Ben
and Jerry (didn't help)
Jerry did Jerry's Trav the wrong way (back around)
Dawes can't remember topping out
Haston's not got better with age he's just got better at lying.
P-Rob actually was lucid dreaming
Durriff onsights things with 10 falls
Duriff's dad is a liar
Ian Dorey climbed the wheel of life
Fawcett did everything with a tight rope
Benarbe Fernandez can't even guess grades right
Skyler Weeks can't dyno
Shark grabs chains
Dense starts stuff in the wrong place
Ty can't sit down

Dan is boring
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 pm
You forgot to mention Macleod overgrades everything he touches.

Which makes Dyer the best climber in the country.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 04, 2013, 12:18:12 am
I think it boils down to which bit of climbing culture is the more important to preserve - the culture of honouring another's word and keeping some things unknowable; or the culture of recording accurate first ascent histories.

Given time these will converge to the 'truth', no?  Yes you honor people's words, but if over time things don't stack up then the accuracy of the first ascent(s)/repeats is called into question and is subject to revision.

Is it not now a case that with t'internet (and in general technology) making the ability to share evidence a piece of piss that has expedited the 'community's' desire to reach this almost instantaneously with a video of said ascent?  (which is in essence what JB and GCW said below).
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 04, 2013, 08:12:45 am
No, this is all bullshit.
The only thing that will suffice is an unedited vid of someone doing something, even repeats. I know a lot of people who dont sit on sit starts, miss out first moves on repeats, not bother doing the end of problems cos they're relatively easy or damp, dab like a madman n keep going. What do people think to this? Has said problem been done then? Just because someone has done x and y on video does not mean they have done z when alone. Someone has built up a reputation over time, this doesn't mean too much either, such a person could then lie content in the knowledge that they're not going to be questioned and say begin to make up one out of three of his ascents. Unlikely, of course it's unlikely but it could quite easily happen, people are after all fucking strange.
Another side of the video coin, I've spent a while in font with a yank friend over a few years, I've seen him repeat a lot of stuff, which he mostly videos. He then gets home at night and starts to edit it, a right hand close up looks better here a left foot there, til the problem almost looks surreal. His taste differs from mine. If you took one of these vids on its own you could pick flaws with every couple of moves, like people do. So watching that vid proves nothing apart from he can do a couple of moves, he's sat on the unedited version at home but he's an artist don't ya know...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 04, 2013, 09:24:05 am
Another side of the video coin, I've spent a while in font with a yank friend over a few years, I've seen him repeat a lot of stuff, which he mostly videos. He then gets home at night and starts to edit it, a right hand close up looks better here a left foot there, til the problem almost looks surreal. His taste differs from mine. If you took one of these vids on its own you could pick flaws with every couple of moves, like people do. So watching that vid proves nothing apart from he can do a couple of moves, he's sat on the unedited version at home but he's an artist don't ya know...

...and  could provide the raw footage if asked.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 04, 2013, 10:06:12 am
If a video is being offered as evidence of an ascent, obviously an edited version is weak evidence at best.
Everything you say above is true Dense, but what is your point? Flawed verification is still preferable to no verification.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 04, 2013, 10:09:06 am
A lot of ostensible 'givens' in life carry a small, acceptable level of uncertainty. I don't think anyone is suggesting this will ever be eliminated in climbing.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 04, 2013, 10:46:22 am
Or we could ignore the video and just ask Dense what he saw. Cross-examining witnesses is, after all, how 'the truth' is usually established.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 04, 2013, 10:59:39 am
Fuck! I just wrote a long piece which luckily for everyone involved has not turned up. Steve fuckin Jobs has got a lot to answer for!
My point Jon is that we are climbers not machines. If a person does not want to or for some reason didnt video himself doing something he does not need to, historical significance or no, and who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are to say if its not videoed i wont put it in? You write a guidebook thats it, its not legislature. Of course it's best if its filmed but that doesn't mean that he hasn't done it if he doesn't film it. People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.
To reiterate the point johnny, video evidence is ok if it's there. Saying ask me if its not is a bit ridiculous.
What is of significance to one person may not be at all to another.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 04, 2013, 11:13:41 am
Quote
Saying ask me if its not is a bit ridiculous.

Well you did say you were there. It wasn't general advice, I thought that much was obvious.

I for one have put stuff in guidebooks that I have doubts about. I'm sure Panton and Bonjoy have too. That doesn't mean I don't believe it, just that I'd like to see more evidence. But the default position remains that it goes in unless the contradictory evidence is overwhelming. Over time new information comes to light, some stuff becomes easier to believe and others less so, and maybe mistakes get made. But that's life.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 04, 2013, 11:23:04 am
Exactly, what you've just described johnny is what every guidebook writer has done

And I did think you meant ask me as a general in an attempt at a funny
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 04, 2013, 11:27:41 am
No, the general point implied was that there are more witnesses floating about than videos. Some of whom, like your own example, might even be better than the video.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nibile on January 04, 2013, 01:00:11 pm
Panopticon climbing. Bentham would be happy!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nigel on January 04, 2013, 02:07:17 pm
This is getting slightly confusing as everyone seems to be arguing different points, although as usual it has swung round to liars which lets face it is quite interesting.

I think Johnny sums it up well – the current system of peer-reviewed belief is imperfect but the best we’ve got. And history shows it usually catches people out (in the end). Of course videoing is easy now and would solve all future ills, but as Dense says you can’t enforce it. And since you can’t enforce it, then liars will just eschew it (since clearly they wouldn’t have a video). And then we are back to current system.

To me the underlying issue here is not “no video = bullshit”, as this is clearly not the case, never has been, never will. Dave’s example of Dave Graham is a good one – if he wanders back from the crag on his own and says he just did a new 8b then who the hell is going to doubt him? Most people have credibility. The real foundation is the “lone wolf” i.e. those who do all their hardest ascents on their tod. Now every “lone wolf” is not a liar, far from it, but obviously all liars are “lone wolves” (since they never have witnesses), hence there is often a whiff of suspicion of this type of character regardless of integrity – evidence of this on this thread. Anyone who fits this profile who didn’t realise that this is how it works is naïve at best. I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag - unlike the old days. Although obviously only if you care.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Stubbs on January 04, 2013, 02:11:49 pm
I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag

Is that how much it costs to get Dense to spot you?  Does there have to be anything in the pocket?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 04, 2013, 08:40:41 pm
I'll toss an add-on into the mix.  Climbing at your limit involves considerable mental stress to drown out all of the doubts/fears/etc.  I've found on a personal level, that managing a video camera solo generally adds to the stress rather than diminishes it.  And now you're asking me to film everything as proof?  Not gonna happen.  Video is great when there's a group, but I don't like it when I'm solo.  I do it sometimes, but I don't like it....
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 04, 2013, 09:22:09 pm
I'll toss an add-on into the mix.  Climbing at your limit involves considerable mental stress to drown out all of the doubts/fears/etc.  I've found on a personal level, that managing a video camera solo generally adds to the stress rather than diminishes it.  And now you're asking me to film everything as proof?  Not gonna happen.  Video is great when there's a group, but I don't like it when I'm solo.  I do it sometimes, but I don't like it....


Heavy climber, likes his beer, new problems, big grades, remote locations, no witnesses.... seriously -  I'd strongly recommend you make a habit of videoing 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Stubbs on January 04, 2013, 09:38:35 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 04, 2013, 09:49:02 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?

Whoops ! Good point...

Sorry Sasquatch  ;)



Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: tomtom on January 04, 2013, 10:24:18 pm
Did you forget the winky smiley face Shark?

I thought it was self referential ;)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 04, 2013, 11:41:49 pm
My point Jon is that we are climbers not machines. If a person does not want to or for some reason didnt video himself doing something he does not need to, historical significance or no, and who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are to say if its not videoed i wont put it in? You write a guidebook thats it, its not legislature. Of course it's best if its filmed but that doesn't mean that he hasn't done it if he doesn't film it. People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.

I feel like I've got to pick up on that. That kind of comment belies a belief that guide writers must think they're somehow more important or some authority on what's legitimate and what's not. This is bullshit. In my experience of it it isn't that at all, it's just a shit long hard slog of a job with close to zero support, akin to trying to herd cats for information and photos. Everyone wants good guidebooks. Nobody except for a few obsessive perverts want to write them, especially for free.
All guide writers do is collate info from as many sources as possible and present it accurately and in an attractive format. Do you want to see information about what climbing is available in an area or don't you? If so, what's your solution for how information is presented - should it be researched or should everything just be thrown on the page as is?  Do you think guides should be an accurate record or not? Personally I'm starting to think that climbing would be actually be better off without any records of first ascents because they've started to mean too much to people. First equipper or first person to negotiate access sure, first ascent? - fuck 'em half of them are just glory-hunting pricks anyway  ;)

'Who the fuck do guide writers think they are..'  -  Who the fuck do egotistical, lying pricks think they are, especially ones blagging free gear and other perks while making themselves out to be great leading figures of climbing and receiving plaudits for their claims. Your ire could be better directed.
If any guide writer demanded video proof of one ascent by a climber who's got a track-record of legit history , they'd should quite rightly be told to do one. Likewise if any climber thinks they can build up a reputation using unsubstantiated claims of a cataloque of ascents and expect people to take them seriously they're living in fantasy land - unfortunately that's exactly what's happened in climbing. I find it almost offensive to my intellect to be expected to automatically believe someone doing something if they were doing it for anything more than just the pure love of the activity - i.e. as soon as the slightest bit of self-publicity or sponsorship are involved. Especially in the narcissist-filled world of climbing.

Quote
People mostly have a pretty good idea who's bullshitting anyway.
They do don't they. And 100% of the time they turn out to be the ones who don't have any video evidence. See a way to help with the filtering-out process here?  :-\
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 05, 2013, 11:52:08 am
Amen to that, well put.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 05, 2013, 12:37:17 pm
Well, a huge amount of testosterone flying around, and a few egotistical comments.

Video should be a personal choice, although the way that modern media had changed over the last handful of years might dictate other wise.  For me this isn't proof based - its just more interesting that looking at pictures on the Internet (that's what magazines and galleries are for).

I've recently  'got into' making videos of problems and areas, and on the whole it's quite good fun although my laptop doesn't think so.  It does distract from the act of ascending to an extent, or attempting to ascend but in the upper grades it seems that this is something you have to now put up with, which is a bit of a shame.

Having been on the receiving end a couple of months back, I thought long and hard about video etc.  I've never been concerend about it, but now quite liking watching the end result.  There is a place for it, although we really shouldn't let media/need for proof /appeasing guidbook writers dictate what we do all of the time.  Unless you are super keen to film, just now and again should be enough, otherwise we'll all be bouldering in a rather clinical manner.






Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 05, 2013, 12:47:23 pm
BTW, aptly, I only came on to sell my camera - check out the for sale bit.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 05, 2013, 09:09:46 pm
Well, a huge amount of testosterone flying around, and a few egotistical comments.
I don't see them?

Quote
Video should be a personal choice, although the way that modern media had changed over the last handful of years might dictate other wise.  For me this isn't proof based - its just more interesting that looking at pictures on the Internet (that's what magazines and galleries are for).
Don't quite follow your second sentence but regards your first: Video 'is' a personal choice, not 'should be a personal choice' - who's forcing you to video anything..? In fact, who's forcing you to report anything?
But as soon as that dreaded word 'significance' enters the equation video is a must if you're: a lone wolf, with no credible track record of proof, and who wants to be believed. Even more so if you're trying to sell yourself as some sort of sponsored climber. To think anything else is to think that other people are idiots who should believe anything they're told without questioning it. Do you think I should automatically believe everything you say? If so why? If you don't care that's fine but why, in that case, would you publicise anything if you don't care? I'd suggest nearly all of us appreciate respect from other people, but most people aren't auto-believing idiots. At least not for ever.

Quote
I've recently  'got into' making videos of problems and areas, and on the whole it's quite good fun although my laptop doesn't think so.  It does distract from the act of ascending to an extent, or attempting to ascend but in the upper grades it seems that this is something you have to now put up with, which is a bit of a shame.
You don't have to put up with it, see above. Unless you don't have a track record and care about being believed by others. In which case you have to put up with it. What could be simpler than pressing play on a DSLR or compact?

Quote
There is a place for it, although we really shouldn't let media/need for proof /appeasing guidbook writers dictate what we do all of the time.  Unless you are super keen to film, just now and again should be enough, otherwise we'll all be bouldering in a rather clinical manner.
That's exactly what is being suggested - a few unedited vids of hard ascents is all that's required. Robins, Caff, Dyer the list goes on etc. don't require it because everyone's seen them climb hard shit. And finally - it's not about appeasing guide writers, that's just a straw man to attempt to deflect the focus onto guide-writers instead of where it belongs - on bullshitting climbers. If anything it's about appeasing your own need for recognition isn't it - otherwise why not just go out and boulder and not report anything, or report back and don't care when no-one believes you. Guide writers are in the difficult position of trying to be neutral reporters of facts, which can be hard when all the alarm bells ring that someone has been bullshitting.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 06, 2013, 09:23:22 am
Not quite sure who you are Pete, but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet?

That was my view - you seem to have over analysed it.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 06, 2013, 09:41:00 am
It doesn't matter who I am, my points are valid ones in many people's opinion.

No bee. And I don't wear a bonnet.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 06, 2013, 10:47:31 am
No worries Mr Harrison.  Just thought you might put a name forward to justify your views. 

See you at the crag with my camcorder no doubt.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 06, 2013, 09:32:34 pm
You now have my name, which anyone who could be arsed can easily find out. But opinions stand up or fall down on their own merit, not on who posted them. So I don't understand your urge to know my name and use it in the thread?

Getting back to the topic of the thread title - you appear to believe that it should be taboo for people to ask you for proof though? I mean, going off this message that you sent to a mutual friend: 'Hey .... - you might want to tell Pete Harrison to reel it in. At the moment I'm vying for a kick in the teeth for the cunt. I think he's trying to call me a bullshitter.'
You're not Lance Armstrong in disguise are you? That's quite an over-reaction to, at most, implied criticism. Re-read my posts above and you'll not find me calling you a bullshitter anywhere, my points were all aimed at nobody in particular. Threatening to 'kick the teeth in' of someone - who hasn't even said anything directly about you - is pathetic and makes you look dubious.

...Most people have credibility. The real foundation is the “lone wolf” i.e. those who do all their hardest ascents on their tod. Now every “lone wolf” is not a liar, far from it, but obviously all liars are “lone wolves” (since they never have witnesses), hence there is often a whiff of suspicion of this type of character regardless of integrity – evidence of this on this thread. Anyone who fits this profile who didn’t realise that this is how it works is naïve at best. I guess the point is that there is now no need to be a “lone wolf” since anyone with £20 and a pocket can take a portable unimpeachable witness to every crag - unlike the old days. Although obviously only if you care.
Couldn't agree more. It's not rocket science - if you care about what people think and you don't have a track record of witness or vids, then it's obvious that you need to film yourself doing 8B's. If you don't care, expect people to have doubts about claims of 8B ascents; which is ok because you don't care right. It isn't a bouldering-specific vendetta, there are liars in all sports who get weeded out eventually.

No worries Mr Harrison.  Just thought you might put a name forward to justify your views. 
See you at the crag with my camcorder no doubt.
I wonder, were you planning on videoing yourself kicking my teeth in to prove you did it?   :)


Log pile?
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 06, 2013, 10:05:32 pm
Due to the missus insisting on watching "Dancing on ice" on the Freeview +, I finally got around to ploughing through this thread...

Oh boy.

Tad personal there lads, for a public forum.

Seems unnecessary.

There also seems to be a lot of crossed threads and missunderstandings, at least, I read it that way.

Being a punter, who's only first ascent was the loft ladder I installed in my last house, I can honestly say I've never given a thought to who made the first ascent anyway.

Normally, I'd have just ignored the thread (probably should have done so), but; it's a shame to see this on UKB.

Rant over.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 06, 2013, 10:26:56 pm
Finally something controversial enough to make me want to post again. Matt this is serious stuff on here now mate we can't have any joviality. Now lets have it out of you....... have you got video evidence of you climbing that loft ladder or any credible witnesses   :popcorn:
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 06, 2013, 10:46:30 pm
Daughter number one was there.

But , she was only three at the time...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 06, 2013, 10:56:32 pm
Well i'm calling you out then mate sorry but i'm doing a guidebook to your old house and I don't feel it can go to print on the thin shred of evidence you have provided so far. I've got no background on you doing any DIY or utilising said construction thereafter.

this post is satirical
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 06, 2013, 11:27:58 pm
Peter you seem to have shortened my statement to "who the fuck do guidebook writers think they are". Nice one, that wasn't what I wrote, it was a part of what I wrote that was written around further mumblings of a guidebook writer asking for video evidence. Nowhere did i say or imply that guidebook writing was easy, that they made bags of cash etc so please dont go on a lengthy treatise about nothing at my expense. My only problem with all this is the video statements made by people, I don't climb at anywhere near a significant level to be affected, so I'm giving my two penneth as a normal guy who for one doesn't like to be videoed except maybe in the bedroom. People seem to be saying a lot that it's fine all you do is take a camera out and press record. I'm sure it is as easy as that but it's the demand that makes me uncomfortable. Everything else everyone seems to be in agreement with.
For what it's wurth Peter I don't think yours and Chris' mutual friend is very mutual if he shows you texts like that, or even a friend to one of the party. I also think you could have dealt with that out of the all seeing eye of the Internet but horses for courses.
Feel free to quote my entire last paragraph as "but horses"
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 07, 2013, 12:43:21 am
I don't think I misrepresented what you wrote about guide authors. I might have pointed out some flaws in what you said and made some relevant points of my own, no big deal.

Umm... it was obvious that his message was intended to be passed on to me  :shrug:. The phrase 'you might want to tell pete harrsion' gave it away. I don't think the messenger needs shooting here.
The point being who the hell sends out private messages threatening to kick someone's teeth in if they don't 'reel it in', off the back of an imagined slight about his bouldering claims??
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: abarro81 on January 07, 2013, 08:38:11 am
I'm giving it  to butt horses  :lets_do_it_wild:
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: tomtom on January 07, 2013, 08:46:27 am
Daughter number one was there.

But , she was only three at the time...

She told me you dabbed and used a French start. Back around...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Lund on January 07, 2013, 09:48:14 am
I don't think I misrepresented what you wrote about guide authors. I might have pointed out some flaws in what you said and made some relevant points of my own, no big deal.

Umm... it was obvious that his message was intended to be passed on to me  :shrug:. The phrase 'you might want to tell pete harrsion' gave it away. I don't think the messenger needs shooting here.
The point being who the hell sends out private messages threatening to kick someone's teeth in if they don't 'reel it in', off the back of an imagined slight about his bouldering claims??

Just to be a neutral third party, Dense, when I read what you put you did come across as a bit negative towards the guidebook writers.  So I can see why pete responded like that.  Someone misinterpreted what you said on the internet it seems.  No harm done though I think.

As to the other part... well.  As we should all know, threatening messages sent via electronic media are a belle de jour of the crown prosecution service at the moment.  That aside, I for one now don't care what he thinks, what's climbed, or whether he dabbed or not, whether he video'd himself on the crag or in the bedroom with an animal.  Clearly he's a cock.  Or you libelled him.  Can we file it for later, punter him, then ignore it and get back on topic?

I wanna know who else should have video'd themselves.  I only knew about Rich S and now Gaskins, both from here.  Who else is under suspicion?  I have seen Johnny Dawes climb indoors.  He looked rubbish.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 07, 2013, 10:32:42 am


!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 07, 2013, 11:05:37 am
Quote
Just to be a neutral third party, Dense, when I read what you put you did come across as a bit negative

I think Dense should have this as his signature.

Chris, I'm not up on the North Wales scene but any 'testosterone flying around' seems to be mainly yours; understandable if you feel slighted but I'm not convinced that was anyone's intention. I think your track record would be enough evidence for most.

My take on this thread from the start has been that it is all general comment about creating a scene in which bullshitters do not flourish. That has not been the case over the last decade - Simpson was probably the highest profile liar British climbing has seen, and made a good few quid out of it. Not healthy.

Having been involved in 'maintaining the historical record', one thing I've learnt is that the mists of time tend to get thicker as the years go on. If the truth isn't established at the time it's highly unlikely to get cleared up later. Look at Si O and Johnny G - ten years down the line and they don't look dissimilar - strings of impossible problems with next to no evidence. At the time it was easy to say who to believe, but if when these problems finally get repeated Si O's are all vaguely the right grade and Johnny's are not, history could get revisionist. Better if there is no doubt in the first place.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 07, 2013, 11:31:53 am
Just to be an aggrieved first party Lund, I did expect the comment to be taken in context with the entire thread, vis a vis video evidence and not as one snippet.

Yes Peter the message was obviously meant to be passed on to you, not to you to us. You could keep that stuff to yourself and not tell the entire world on a public forum.

Johnny the last bit drawing parallels with johnny g and Si o' saying history could get revisionist if si's grades seem right and johnnys are out means next to nothing. As I have pointed out since I started climbing anybody can guess a grade pretty accurately, ok if not anybody then I and most people I know have a gift.
Yes it is better if there's no doubt but that's not the world we live in
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 07, 2013, 12:51:58 pm
I didn't realise that there was no evidence whatsoever of any of John's hard ascents until now. No video is one thing but nobody having ever seen him climb anything really hard puts a completely different complexion on things. To me anyway.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 07, 2013, 12:52:26 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Si O'Conman having any accomplices/witnesses?
 
John however has been seen on the Pill Box problem (I'm right in thinking?), has been photographed in position on VNB (in itself surely a Font 9a position (positions, not problems. Know the feeling)). I'm sure Ray Wood has seen him in other climbing scenarios as have others come forward saying that they've seen him performing impressively (perhaps not complete ascents).

I for one am absolutely not suspicious of John and believe his character stacks up entirely. After all, could he not as easily have lied about completing the Brandenburg Gate project?

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 07, 2013, 12:53:32 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Si O'Conman having any accomplices/witnesses?

Didn't he credit his dog a fair bit?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 07, 2013, 01:05:12 pm
It's a sad day when Gaskins is getting compared to Si o Connor
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: benpritch on January 07, 2013, 01:12:15 pm
I'd just like to say I saw John Gaskins trying Brandenburg Gate and he didn't look a million miles off doing it. He was definitely stringing moves together. He went there repeatedly to try it and didn't claim it. I'd say that is a big plus point in regard to questions regarding his integrity.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Lund on January 07, 2013, 01:13:37 pm
It may be a sad day doylo, but fundamentally, from a position of ignorance about the man and the legend, as a member of the jury at the moment I'm seeing some parallels.

It seems to me to be an echo of the simpson thread.  I remember reading that and there's loads of people saying "I'm sure that someone must have seen something", "But he was really strong, I saw him on the campus board, although never climbing anything", and "an unedited video isn't the same as an edited video".

[I've not bothered to re-read it.]

Now... we seem to be saying
1. Surely someone has seen him climb something very hard
2. We've seen him climbing on easier things / other stuff, and he looks well cool
2. Positions aren't the same as problems

See the similarity?

Of course, if we knew who belayed him on violent new breed, and they came forward, and said yeah, blah blah whatever then great.  Of course, should that be his wife... or should he get angry and say "FUCK YOU ALL FOR ASKING" then...

I dunno.  From not knowing or caring about the legend, it seems highly fucking suspicious to my mind.

Of course, I have in the past been called a suspicious dick.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 07, 2013, 01:27:54 pm
I'd just like to say I saw John Gaskins trying Brandenburg Gate and he didn't look a million miles off doing it. He was definitely stringing moves together. He went there repeatedly to try it and didn't claim it. I'd say that is a big plus point in regard to questions regarding his integrity.

Case in point.

Now how many people have eeked out of the woodwork for some other characters of dubious nature?
We're talking about a man who never courted the media limelight and was seemingly always approached by those curious (see Mr Panton's OTE article for example). Sorry to bring Dolph into this but here's another talent that has always climbed on his own doorstep and the only reason some of his developments have come to light was that he finally learnt to turn his computer on and tripped up into a video camera (largely for personal posterity I'm sure). His wife probably signed him up here. Bless him.

Believe it or not, such characters exist who grow up in the hinterland and do it for themselves. I can't imagine Boreal have installed a Cristal tap in John's house and I don't think Ben Moon could ever meet Mike's Coca Cola supply and demand.



Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 07, 2013, 01:42:14 pm
I seem to recall reading that gaskins had to resort to self belaying on violent new breed due to being unable to find a belayer.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: T_B on January 07, 2013, 02:08:08 pm
...surely in life if you are uniformed about things you say nothing? It’s obvious this is not the case with the majority of the posts on here.

Think what you want about me, I don’t care, anyone that knows me will know what im like, and to the rest it will just be assumptions.

I am not owed a living by anyone, and have no reason to tip toe around people, I don’t want a living from climbing so have no need to build either a good reputation with anyone I don’t want to.



Who wrote that then?

In this day and age, if you're a professional climber then your sponsors should require that you video your 'newsworthy' ascents. Then there will no longer be anywhere for the cheats (and pathological liars) to hide.



Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 07, 2013, 02:14:07 pm
Quote
I'd just like to say I saw John Gaskins trying Brandenburg Gate and he didn't look a million miles off doing it. He was definitely stringing moves together. He went there repeatedly to try it and didn't claim it. I'd say that is a big plus point in regard to questions regarding his integrity.

Just to reiterate, I wasn't suggesting Gaskins should be doubted, not for a moment. I was just suggesting that as time passes, the uninitiated may struggle to see clear differences as to why his records are accepted and Si 'O's is not. In the future, I think folk should do their best to notice such developing situations and remedy them - ie it should not be taboo to ask for proof.

PS my last post was mainly in reply to the one Chris deleted.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 07, 2013, 02:47:06 pm
Just to reiterate, I wasn't suggesting Gaskins should be doubted, not for a moment. I was just suggesting that as time passes, the uninitiated may struggle to see clear differences as to why his records are accepted and Si 'O's is not. In the future, I think folk should do their best to notice such developing situations and remedy them - ie it should not be taboo to ask for proof.


To back up what Johnny Brown is saying  :o but making it less loaded by going further back, a friend of mine (aka geordie) is absolutely convinced that Haskett-Smith lied about climbing Napes Needle and made a case for it on UKC here (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=12010).

There may have been good reason for his peers not to doubt Haskett-Smith at the time based on integrity/witnessed performance as Gaskins has and O'Connor hasn't . OTOH it may be that they did doubt in private. We'll never know now. So looking back without any context some aspects of Haskett-Smiths claim look sketchy. 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Three Nine on January 07, 2013, 02:57:17 pm
I remember Simpson telling me in 2009 that he doubted all Gaskins hard stuff, but I doubt that means very much.

For what its worth (and i'm sure thats not much) i've doubted Gaskins for ages. I remember Ken Palmer saying that he didn't think Gaskins had done Fishermans Tale at Anstey's.

I don't really care all that much, but i feel the need to slag Gaskins off just cost so many cunts on here (like Doyle) wanna get right up inside Gaskins' rectum. 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Three Nine on January 07, 2013, 02:58:02 pm
Punter away, i'm on for the magic -50.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 07, 2013, 03:07:41 pm
I had a conversation with Pete this morning to clear up any misinterpretation.

Chris was not given a message to pass on, and has since been put on the plonker list.  Also - the bit about 'not really, but could I get Pete's number' was omitted.  I'd like to think Pete has understood why I was so angry yesterday.

Over and out

CJD
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 07, 2013, 03:33:06 pm
Punter away, i'm on for the magic -50.

I heard when you reach negative 50 it's like when a pawn reaches the far-side of the chess board and gets turned into a Queen.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 07, 2013, 03:35:11 pm
Quote
a friend of mine (aka geordie) is absolutely convinced that Haskett-Smith lied about climbing Napes Needle and made a case for it on UKC here.

That thread's hilarious, especially liked this:

Quote
* During his time at Oxford he broke the college long jump record - in practice ie. no-one saw him do it - they had to take his word!

Proof indeed that little has changed...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 07, 2013, 04:14:36 pm
There was no not really flops, I just checked. If someone asks me to pass on a message I'm gonna do it. You plonka!  :jab: Three Nine your old king just rang me.He said to tell you you're adopted. Yes if you look at the cold hard facts then gaskins is no better than the O Connors but being a lone wolf wasn t looked on as dodgy back then. the difference is Gaskins has been seen being pretty mutant on various occasions, he's a devout Christian and isnt barking mad like most the others. it is clear that we have now entered an era where if you're sponsored or you're putting up significant FAs then you need to establish some credibility. This doesn't mean everything needs to be filmed. Far from it, credible witnesses would do the job. It's not hard to make yourself credible so from now on there should be no excuse.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Three Nine on January 07, 2013, 04:17:36 pm
Are you my real dad? I knew it!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: north_country_boy on January 07, 2013, 04:28:07 pm
....he's a devout Christian and isnt barking mad like most the others.

There seems to be a contradiction in here somewhere.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 07, 2013, 04:41:14 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 07, 2013, 04:43:51 pm
Are you my real dad? I knew it!

Sparky, i am your father
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2yl1pup.jpg)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Lund on January 07, 2013, 04:51:51 pm
he's a devout Christian

So was Jimmy Savile.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 07, 2013, 04:59:40 pm
Just to reiterate again! and basically say what JB and Doylo recently has. We should let bygones be bygones with what has been written up. I can see why chris is annoyed at having his back catalogue called out with no notice as things were different back then, its class that he's refilming some of the latest stuff like last stand and i think its helping the scene massively, i think its well tight if he were to have to prove things from years ago though as its just not fair and should've been sorted at the time if there was an issue. Same with gaskins, its all been written up and i think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

If from now on though if a person decides to put up the only 8C+s in the country if they could provide a bit of concrete evidence of them  climbing at that level without feeling put out that'd be useful for the sport. Otherwise we should just do a round robin and pick random bits of blankish rock out of our hats for our hardest problems to be (no need for a fa-ist, as you dont need to prove anything and its better if the whole community is involved in the lying i reckon).

 A capable climber might have to repeat at least one of John's 8C's at some point including Shadowplay (8B+ original grade) (which has to have lost the big foothold off it for john not to be levitating, as even he couldnt pull on if i remember correctly from Ray). The easiest 8C would be walk away sit as its barely 7C into the stand but the match is really hard and obviously the stand is a really hard move (7C into a one move 8A+) Traci sit is a 7C+ move into a hard 8A move into a single move 8A (harder for me with johns beta)
Traci sit 8A+ walk away sit 8C make sense to anyone?

Shadowplay is probably multiple single move 8Bs (i cant pull on in a lot of places) the whole way and therefore a first for world bouldering. ATHOIA is lots of single move 7C+/8As with a one move 8B in the middle and Il parata looks like it might even be a single move 8B+ as its so short.

Where as on the repeated problems side Isla de encanta is roughly a one move 7C+ with a 7B+ into it and that gets 8B quite rightly as climbing into single move 7C+s is hard going. Shallow groove is at least as hard as Isla i'd argue but a different style (hence why Ryan is the only one to have done it) I've not tried Kaizen so cant comment.

The best way to see where i'm coming from is to go out and try some of these problems as there's no better way to get a sense of just how hard they are in relation to everything else.

Like i say i'd love to believe what Johns done for the sport and i've always given him the benefit of the doubt in the past and its a shame to use him as an example but he's by far the easiest enigma to find in the UK. Surely people would prefer to know for sure if it ever happened again? its 2013 now and leaving a camera on or having a few mates spot/watch really isnt alot to ask if you're going to report what you do and its crazily hard. This only applies to a few people, but i guess its important to many more that its done right as i cant see the logic of bouldering even being a credible sport if the problem of people potentially lying about developing the country's hardest climbs is so easily solvable now but not enforced by anyone. News reporters and guidebook writers have the unenviable task put on them as aside from the climber they are the people responsible for the news becoming widely known and understood as truth.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Lund on January 07, 2013, 05:07:21 pm
Just to reiterate again! and basically say what JB and Doylo recently has. We should let bygones be bygones with what has been written up. I can see why chris is annoyed at having his back catalogue called out with no notice as things were different back then, its class that he's refilming some of the latest stuff like last stand and i think its helping the scene massively, i think its well tight if he were to have to prove things from years ago though as its just not fair and should've been sorted at the time if there was an issue. Same with gaskins, its all been written up and i think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Dan, I don't agree, soz.  This attitude would have left lance armstrong the record holder, and a legend, rather than shown up to be the cheat he was for example.

You seem remarkably cool with it.  If I were you, I think I'd be a bit more pissed off.  All that hard work, and some other chap who doesn't spend half as much time dangling off small bits of wood is known as the guy who's the best boulderer ever in the UK.

Is that fair?

Hindsight is a beautiful thing.  I think we should take advantage of its clarity.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 07, 2013, 05:17:31 pm
it is clear that we have now entered an era where if you're sponsored or you're putting up significant FAs then you need to establish some credibility. This doesn't mean everything needs to be filmed. Far from it, credible witnesses would do the job. It's not hard to make yourself credible so from now on there should be no excuse.

I don't think this is anything new.  There's always been a need for credibility.  Look back through climbing's history, from the mountains to the boulders, and you see the same thing:

John Smith claims something new and amazing,
Joe Dirt doubts it,
Either John Smith goes on to do more amazing things, some of which are witnessed lending credibility to his unwitnessed claims,
Or John Smith goes on to claim more amazing things with nary a witness, thus leading more people into Joe Dirt's Camp. 

In the end everyone knows that John Smith was either lying or he wasn't.  Either way, they've become part of climbing's folklore. 

* The characters mentioned above are all fictional and were made up by the author.
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 07, 2013, 05:18:07 pm
It's a sad day when Gaskins is getting compared to Si o Connor

+1

Lets not gaskins never claimed E8s hanging above the sea with an 6ft 8a crux dyno off razor blades to a credit card edge in a roof, 30ft above a rotting RP and a tied off guillemot's egg. Or posted blatantly photoshopped photos of himself holding positions on alleged 8d+ roofs.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 07, 2013, 05:20:54 pm
Heavy climber, likes his beer, new problems, big grades, remote locations, no witnesses.... seriously -  I'd strongly recommend you make a habit of videoing.

Ouch :slap:  Maybe I shoulda kept my trap shut. 

Oh well, bought a new camera rig for next season.  We'll see what I can get on video now that my phone won't keep dying :)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Danny on January 07, 2013, 05:25:35 pm
Interesting stuff re: Gaskins. I think this is all far too retrospective to turn out anything more than conjecture regarding what John did, or did not, climb. Interestingly, I have heard capable folk voice doubts about Darkness Before Dawn over here in Ireland. Nothing strident, however, because most keen climbers here are still focussed on development rather than repeats. Not that it really matters now, the line still stands as a challenge regardless of grade, and whether it's a first ascent or a second. Any climber would doubtless get the credit they deserve for an ascent, should they want it.   

Much like Haskett-Smith, I don't think much productive will come of any debate now, other than to say that some kind of evidence is a must in modern times. Maybe this is a sad thing but, on balance, I think not. I dread to think of how much of history in general has already been written by the bullshitters. The modern world is a little less romantic, but slightly more capable of ousting its Lance Armstrongs.

From now on, history shall be written by the victors, so long as they remembered to press play.   
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 07, 2013, 05:29:28 pm


Traci sit 8A+ walk away sit 8C make sense to anyone?



I think it does make sense, he did Traci and Pill Box both in a sesh hence the lowly incorrect grades.  The stuff he gave 8c took 50+days so obviously felt harder.  I don't bum him that much, i don't find his climbs particularly inspiring and i wished he travelled to some good crags more but i do believe him.   
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Danny on January 07, 2013, 05:41:27 pm
From now on, history shall be written by the victors, so long as they remembered to press record.

Shit, that's what I've been doing wrong all this time! :)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 07, 2013, 09:40:48 pm
Chris you bum the shit out of johnny n always have.

Dan you seem to say things pretty definitively like ure the second coming.

Dave what are u talking about johnny never claimed anything like si o', have u forgotten his 8b prob at thorn crag which is massive or his 8b stanforth slab.

It's doing no good for anyones case if people keep bringing up g probs as the definitive shit when no ones seen him do a thing. This isn't to say he's done them or not, can we just keep things real (or if that term offends, known)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 07, 2013, 09:51:30 pm
G's big thing at thorn crag was 'a moment of clarity', the big arete to the right of last temptation. I think this one went under a few peoples radars, as at the time it would have been the worlds first E11 but there wasn't much said about it. I don't think he reported it until a year or so after the ascent, but people in the know please feel free to enlighten me if I've got any of this wrong.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Tom de Gay on January 07, 2013, 11:14:19 pm
It's a sad day when Gaskins is getting compared to Si o Connor

+1

Lets not gaskins never claimed E8s hanging above the sea with an 6ft 8a crux dyno off razor blades to a credit card edge in a roof, 30ft above a rotting RP and a tied off guillemot's egg. Or posted blatantly photoshopped photos of himself holding positions on alleged 8d+ roofs.


What Dave said. 'Enigmatic lone wolf' and 'outright fantasist' are different cases.


Don't know if it's widely known but in the late 90's Si claimed routes up to E9 on Mull (accompanied by the soon to be customary vivid descriptions) on crags which turned out not to exist. Around 2001, accompanied by a local wad, I went for a look at one of his claimed hard problems in Glen Nevis, which turned out to be a lone boulder similar in height and difficulty to my kitchen table. There're prouder lines on the orange circuit at Diplodocus, but it wasn't an issue of quality: this piece of rock to was just too small to climb. The only surprising thing about the later claims on Skye was that they seemed to involve actual rock.


Interesting to revisit the Gaskins Appreciation Thread (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11645.0.html).

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 08, 2013, 12:01:20 am
Chris you bum the shit out of johnny n always have.


A mans allowed to change his affections. You should know that. Moffatts more my tipple really...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 08, 2013, 08:06:45 am
Chris you bum the shit out of johnny n always have.

A mans allowed to change his affections. You should know that. Moffatts more my tipple really...

Look forward to the next video in the series holy man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUFM5o3j6YU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUFM5o3j6YU#)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 08, 2013, 09:22:06 am
I think this thread is worth revisiting too with regard to grade inconsistencies and other (Shadowplay) related stuff (Smiths puns excepted):

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9484.msg154247.html#msg154247 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9484.msg154247.html#msg154247)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: benpritch on January 08, 2013, 09:31:52 am
ok, just to re-iterate - I saw John Gaskins climbing on Brandenburg Gate. He was doing all the moves, some links etc. He looked like he could do it. Brandenburg Gate makes Hubble look like a juggy warm up. I have seen a lot of good climbers climbing but i have never seen anything like that before.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2013, 09:55:20 am
As long as he doesn't start telling people he's a contender for a place on the olympic boxing team for Rio 2016 then gets shown up by a complete beginner in varsity boxing, he should be alright.


Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: jwi on January 08, 2013, 12:29:07 pm
Off on a tangent here, but climbers who have such bad case of competitive anxiety that they cannot stand climbing or training in front of others (IRL or via a camera-lens) should work on that weakness.

After a few years of climbing I started to be uncomfortable when climbing with climbers I did not know and felt a weird self-inflicted pressure to preform.  It took away quite a lot of the enjoyment I got out of a day of climbing if "strangers" tagged along, and when I realised how limiting and unfortunate this was I decided to do something about it.  Luckily, it was not that hard to get out of that pattern, and after being able to happily climb with anyone anywhere again I got much more enjoyment out of climbing.

From what I have seen, most climbers who are not happy to climb when strangers are around soon stop climbing altogether.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 08, 2013, 12:34:34 pm
From what I have seen, most climbers who are not happy to climb when strangers are around soon stop climbing altogether.

No, you've just not seen them climbing as they don't want to be seen! :clown:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Wood FT on January 08, 2013, 12:43:20 pm
Off on a tangent here, but climbers who have such bad case of competitive anxiety that they cannot stand climbing or training in front of others (IRL or via a camera-lens) should work on that weakness.

After a few years of climbing I started to be uncomfortable when climbing with climbers I did not know and felt a weird self-inflicted pressure to preform.  It took away quite a lot of the enjoyment I got out of a day of climbing if "strangers" tagged along, and when I realised how limiting and unfortunate this was I decided to do something about it.  Luckily, it was not that hard to get out of that pattern, and after being able to happily climb with anyone anywhere again I got much more enjoyment out of climbing.

From what I have seen, most climbers who are not happy to climb when strangers are around soon stop climbing altogether.

Dave Mc's book covers this topic a bit, good stuff
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: jwi on January 08, 2013, 12:47:49 pm
From what I have seen, most climbers who are not happy to climb when strangers are around soon stop climbing altogether.

No, you've just not seen them climbing as they don't want to be seen! :clown:

 :lol: If a climber falls in a forest and no one is around to hear him, does he make a sound?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2013, 12:59:15 pm
It's a sad day when Gaskins is getting compared to Si o Connor

+1

Lets not gaskins never claimed E8s hanging above the sea with an 6ft 8a crux dyno off razor blades to a credit card edge in a roof, 30ft above a rotting RP and a tied off guillemot's egg. Or posted blatantly photoshopped photos of himself holding positions on alleged 8d+ roofs.
He also had an alto ego or other persona Big Mary or the like who threatened to rip anyone a new arse hole who doubted Si.
 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jim on January 08, 2013, 01:17:03 pm
Comparing Gaskins and Si O' is a bit unfair. At least we know that Gaskins exsits!
Did anyone ever meet the legendary Si O'Conner?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 08, 2013, 01:28:32 pm
I did exchange emails with him once (sadly long gone) and he claimed to have quite climbing due to a massive shoulder injury.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 08, 2013, 01:33:49 pm
I remember when Panton called him out in his bouldering scene in Climber. Was pretty gutsy!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 08, 2013, 01:35:04 pm
Comparing Gaskins and Si O' is a bit unfair. At least we know that Gaskins exsits!
Did anyone ever meet the legendary Si O'Conner?

John Watson of Stone Country met him (mentioned in this interview (http://www.theshortspan.com/features/stonePlay.htm) with Dave F). There might be a write up on his blog about it somewhere that I've a vague recollection of reading at some point.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dobbin on January 08, 2013, 01:36:11 pm
:lol: If a climber falls in a forest and no one is around to hear him, does he make a sound?

I think you will find that if noone is around, he didn't fall in the first place...
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 08, 2013, 01:47:10 pm
It's a sad day when Gaskins is getting compared to Si o Connor

+1

Lets not gaskins never claimed E8s hanging above the sea with an 6ft 8a crux dyno off razor blades to a credit card edge in a roof, 30ft above a rotting RP and a tied off guillemot's egg. Or posted blatantly photoshopped photos of himself holding positions on alleged 8d+ roofs.
He also had an alto ego or other persona Big Mary or the like who threatened to rip anyone a new arse hole who doubted Si.

....including logging in on a different user account to back his claims up as an alleged "friend". Albeit one that posts from the same IP address and uses an identical style of written English.....

I heard recently Si O'bullshit had reinvented himself as a fine art photographer and is claiming to work on the Hebrides lifeboats.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 08, 2013, 01:50:12 pm
Dense im just trying to get a point across on things i have a direct experience of (trying lots of johns problems this year as i live in the lakes now, along with doing other peoples 8's) Its all nice and fresh in my mind which is why its coming across in a big sludge of numbers. You've made your mind up years ago after simply looking at a few of his problems vs looking at other peoples (and electing to do neither), yet on here you're saying bullshitting in climbing is a better situation than the horror of having to have a witness or a video if asked for it.

Ben its the massive inconsistencies that are frustrating. You can see by watching stick it he's a good climber and that Isla (despite it being too hot on that err pinch) is fine for him, lots of cuts though but then its a climbing film. Isla is a world away from ATHOIA though in terms of difficulty.
Some of G's stuff like Return of the Fly (i couldn't top out up the groove due to wetness) is amazing quality and lo and behold bob on for 7C+ (albeit with my "i am jesus" gradar, and yes i know i didnt top it out so no tick!) and yet atrocity exhibition is 1 grade harder. The guy is the worst person at grading in the UK (which i think is what JB was saying, rather than say he's as mad as o'connor) And being so inconsistent in form must be really hard for him (he said it himself that he's 3 grades stronger in the mornings, and thats why he couldn't touch gossip with bock that day). What'd help a future inconsistent lone wolf who climbs above 8A+? my vote would be providing the odd bit of proof for the really hard stuff, especially when people like Rich, si o' and many more going back years have eroded peoples ability to accept the fact that climbers never lie.



Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: iain on January 08, 2013, 01:53:30 pm
Did anyone ever meet the legendary Si O'Conner?
He was at the launch for the original Stone Country before the bubble completely burst. He had a talent for writing, just wish it had been about something real.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 08, 2013, 01:55:21 pm
:lol: If a climber falls in a forest and no one is around to hear him, does he make a sound?

I think you will find that if noone is around, he didn't fall in the first place...

Genius :clap2:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2013, 02:21:10 pm
Comparing Gaskins and Si O' is a bit unfair. At least we know that Gaskins exsits!
Did anyone ever meet the legendary Si O'Conner?

John Watson of Stone Country met him (mentioned in this interview (http://www.theshortspan.com/features/stonePlay.htm) with Dave F). There might be a write up on his blog about it somewhere that I've a vague recollection of reading at some point.


Video evidence of the meeting, plus the ultra problem that is "Atlantic Bridge V(1)4".

A Grand Day Out Bouldering on Lewis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4gI0gXE_-A#)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 08, 2013, 02:24:57 pm
Slapper it's not so much what you say, it's the way you say it. Understandably this comes from being passionate about the subject matter but nobody likes being preached to.

Si O is clearly just mad, I'm not sure he's the best example to be using as a basis for this argument because it's all clearly bullshit.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: danm on January 08, 2013, 02:25:37 pm
I met (and even went bouldering with) the infamous Si O'Connor about 16 years ago. I'd just moved to Kendal, and was looking for people to climb with. A friend, who climbed a bit, mentioned a mate of his. We hooked up, he had this home-made guide to weird scruffy bits of rock around Kendal, buildering etc. We went out, climbed some appalling choss and that was it. It became apparent that he was a nice guy, albeit with some issues (for a while I think he pretended to be Irish, complete with accent) and a couple of years later I heard about the fantasist thing and wasn't at all surprised.

Not that it counts for much, but I think climbing, ego and peers are a strange mix. Otherwise decent people end up making stuff up, tweaking the truth a little and maybe even end up believing their altered reality. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that these days, when you can capture pretty much anything on a phone, that questions may be asked if you make bigs claims and supply no proof.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: turnipturned on January 08, 2013, 03:31:24 pm
Ben its the massive inconsistencies that are frustrating. You can see by watching stick it he's a good climber and that Isla (despite it being too hot on that err pinch) is fine for him, lots of cuts though but then its a climbing film.

I have to agree with Dan that Gaskins inconsistencies with his grading is completely wack. I have seen a fair few problems of Gaskins in a variety of different areas. A perfect example of this inconsistency is between Isla (8B) and Shallow groove (8a), both on the same face. Shallow Groove (for me at least) is sooo much harder than Isla. Another example is 'Darkness before Dawn' (8a+) in Ireland. The traverse is 8a then you have to turn the lip 8a+/8b (which I did incidentally say was impossible at the time, but have later been told there are holds up there). 8a into 8a+ has to be in the 8b/8b+ region.

Now having thought a bit about this thread and the whole Gaskins things, I honestly think that those lines have been done (and I feel that I have been a complete twat in the past for suggesting otherwise). I honestly think the guy hasn't got a clue about grades and as doylo says just relates grades to how quickly he does them.

Back to the main deal regarding asking for proof- I think its a bloody shame that it has come to this and video evidence is required. I think as English climbers we are a fucking negative bunch, far to quick to judge and doubt people (admittedly I have in the past fallen into this trap). I also think before you guys post, just have a quick think about what you are putting, what you are actually trying imply and what affect this may have on the individual that you are trying rip to pieces. It takes a lot of effort going out brushing and cleaning up projects, and then to have endless sessions to try and get them sent. I would be pretty heart broken if I got called out, or a least people implied it!

As a young enthusiastic climber myself it makes me sad to think that if I put up a new or repeat a hard problem with no proof that no one is going to believe me. It has actually led to this situation, I did for me a relatively hard problem in the south lakes early last, I was on my own and I sent it, I had a camera with me but when I got back to the camera the memory card was full. I then spent the next 20mins trying to repeat it. I was that worried people wouldn’t believe me, I went back the next week and got a friend to film me repeating it in full.

 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2013, 03:45:31 pm
Off topic, but is your Isla footage online?  Not an accusation, I'd just be keen to see it.   :great:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Dave Flanagan on January 08, 2013, 03:55:50 pm
Did anyone ever meet the legendary Si O'Conner?

I talked to him on the phone, it was pretty intense.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Dave Flanagan on January 08, 2013, 04:14:28 pm
Another example is 'Darkness before Dawn' (8a+) in Ireland. The traverse is 8a then you have to turn the lip 8a+/8b (which I did incidentally say was impossible at the time, but have later been told there are holds up there). 8a into 8a+ has to be in the 8b/8b+ region.

I'm not sure who told you there was holds up there but I know one very strong climber who has checked the lip from a rope and found nothing resembling a hold. The move to the lip would be very long, over a steeply sloping landing, without much in the way of footholds, followed by a hard mantel. I think its pure speculation to say what grade the top section merits unless you know someone who tried it?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: jakes on January 08, 2013, 04:16:16 pm
Off topic, but is your Isla footage online?  Not an accusation, I'd just be keen to see it.   :great:

It's on Dan's facebook GCW.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2013, 04:20:10 pm
Yes, Dan has been in contact.  However, as someone with no friends i don't have a Facebook account   :o
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 08, 2013, 04:24:31 pm
Off on a tangent here, but climbers who have such bad case of competitive anxiety that they cannot stand climbing or training in front of others (IRL or via a camera-lens) should work on that weakness.

After a few years of climbing I started to be uncomfortable when climbing with climbers I did not know and felt a weird self-inflicted pressure to preform.  It took away quite a lot of the enjoyment I got out of a day of climbing if "strangers" tagged along, and when I realised how limiting and unfortunate this was I decided to do something about it.  Luckily, it was not that hard to get out of that pattern, and after being able to happily climb with anyone anywhere again I got much more enjoyment out of climbing.

From what I have seen, most climbers who are not happy to climb when strangers are around soon stop climbing altogether.

As the one who started a bit about this particular issue.  It's not that I have a problem being in front of a video camera, and I absolutely love going out with friends climbing.  It's that when you are pushing a new personal standard, every little detail makes a difference, and if you can't 100% focus, then that keeps you from performing at your 100% best.  Setting the stage for success if huge, and I contend that if you're solo and having to fluff about with a  video camera, then you're not at you 100%. 

Maybe I'm the only one, but I probably go out solo 25-50% of the time.  I have a wife and three kids and live in a place that's at least as shit weather at UK, so when I get a chance, I take it.  If I can get a friend to go, great. If not, I go anyway because it may be only chance for 2 weeks....
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2013, 05:54:58 pm
Unless you're claiming to have done new probs or routes, or repeated cutting edge probs or routes, nobody really cares. Are/have you?
If not, don't worry about filming yourself unless you want a personal memory. A bunch of made up 7's isn't going to do much harm to the integrity of the sport. A bit like someone cheating at a county athletics meet versus cheating in the Olympic 100m final.

It really is a tiny number of overall ascents we're talking about. Just so happens they're the ascents that make or break the reputations of some people held up as amongst the leading figures in climbing.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nemo on January 08, 2013, 06:59:30 pm
Edit - that wasn't really what I wanted to say, so deleted.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 08, 2013, 07:43:30 pm
http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/blogs/news/7110450-2012-wrap-up (http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/blogs/news/7110450-2012-wrap-up)

As an aside i have witnesses or unedited video (or both) for all my problems i’ve put up this year (as i’m aware i’ve put up more new blocs this year than si o' connor ever did and he churned them out! which might flag up the bullshit radar) End Sequence is the only exception as the camera was left in Katie's car and she had a meeting in Newcastle. I do however have the footage from the session before with Katie and Ben when i dropped the very last hard move on the out swing and i’d be more than happy to head up there again if it was an issue. Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact. Strong developers cherish undone lines alot more than done ones as they are bloody hard to find.Thankfully bouldering seems to be moving in the direction of it not being taboo to ask for proof.


My bold. Are we there yet ? Good thing if so.

The rest of the blog is superb BTW

So it feels to me from reading everyone's posts that we're looking at this too black and white. 

Dan simply says "Thankfully bouldering seems to be moving in the direction of it not being taboo to ask for proof".   I disagree. 

I don't think it's any more or less than it was before, and I don't think grades have anything to do with it.  I do think internet anonymity has led to pricks being willing to wag their tongues when they never would in person.

If someone says they did something and you call them out, one of you is going to end up being a douche.  Either they back up their talk and you end up being the prick for falsely calling them out, or they can't back it up and end up being the lying shit.  This has been happening for decades in climbing, and in the past would often lead to black eyes, fat lips, and bloody noses.   
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 08, 2013, 08:14:42 pm
Maybe that's true over where you climb Sasquatch. In the UK we have moved past that macho bullshit, at least to some extent and threads like this help to further the trend.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jim on January 08, 2013, 08:25:29 pm
"If there is any doubt, there is no doubt"
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 08, 2013, 08:50:02 pm
Maybe that's true over where you climb Sasquatch. In the UK we have moved past that macho bullshit, at least to some extent and threads like this help to further the trend.

You missed the "in the past" part.  ;)

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Dave Flanagan on January 08, 2013, 09:09:58 pm
If someone says they did something and you call them out, one of you is going to end up being a douche.

I think you are the one seeing things as too black and white. It's not about "calling people out", I don't think anyone on this thread has explicitly called anyone a liar. People have expressed doubts, I think there is a big difference. The whole jist of this thread is that it's has started to become acceptable to reserve judgement and ask for more proof and that people no longer interpret this request as an accusation of lying.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2013, 09:45:17 pm
I might come across as being at the skeptical end of the spectrum in this thread. That partly stems from climbing with Simpson for a day, before the suspicions arose, and listening to him talk 100% convincingly about his climbing and boxing. Only to subsequently realise whilst researching Liquid Ambar's history for the NW lime guide that much of it was bullshit and that it would never be possible to separate the facts from the fantasies. Another foundation of my skepticism has been laid by climbing with a bullshitter for a couple of years in new zealand and canada. I never suspected a thing. Until stories started getting relayed to me about him snowboarding Mt.Robson when I knew he'd never stepped foot on the mountain at that point in time.
 
The links below about Jonathan Pratt are well-worth a read, especially his trip report. They're very relevant, make lone wolf boulderer's stories look unimpressive in comparison, and I find the whole tale quite heartening. According to reporter Peter Gilman this guy should be regarded as one of the most impressive british mountaineers of his time - the 1st successful british ascent of K2 (and 2nd ascent of the W. Ridge) and highest ever bivouac on K2. What he did easily compares to the achievements of self-publicist mountaineers of his day (and today). By all accounts Jonathan Pratt didn't/doesn't give a shit about publicity and was overlooked for sponsorship or funding for his expeditions - many of which, according to him, he went and did anyway illegally on the cheap and then never told anyone what he'd climbed. His K2 ascent was, according to Gilman, discredited by influential and well-known members of the british mountaineering establishment (Hinkes/Payne). It's also worth looking into Dan Mazur's subsequent achievements to help to realise these weren't a couple of punters.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/mountaineers-spectacular-achievement-goes-unnoticed-last-month-jonathan-pratt-became-the-first-briton-to-climb-k2-and-survive-but-no-one-paid-any-attention-writes-will-bennett-1508567.html
 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/mountaineers-spectacular-achievement-goes-unnoticed-last-month-jonathan-pratt-became-the-first-briton-to-climb-k2-and-survive-but-no-one-paid-any-attention-writes-will-bennett-1508567.html)
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/the-odd-man-and-the-mountain-is-jonathan-pratt-britains-most-successful-mountaineer-a-storm-is-raging-among-the-climbing-elite-about-this-outsiders-claim-to-have-conquered-the-worlds-two-highest-peaks-1420492.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/the-odd-man-and-the-mountain-is-jonathan-pratt-britains-most-successful-mountaineer-a-storm-is-raging-among-the-climbing-elite-about-this-outsiders-claim-to-have-conquered-the-worlds-two-highest-peaks-1420492.html)
http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1995_files/AJ%201995%2037-46%20Pratt%20K2.pdf (http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1995_files/AJ%201995%2037-46%20Pratt%20K2.pdf) - trip report in alpine journal.
http://photographic.co.nz/everestposter/K2%20Poster.pdf (http://photographic.co.nz/everestposter/K2%20Poster.pdf)

The story above helps me stay open-minded, I hope it's true. Gaskins might be the Jonathan Pratt of bouldering - it's the same story in different surroundings. Dyer's a classic example of one of the best british climbers around who doesn't seek publicity. But all I really need to stay open-minded is to realise that I don't climb for publicity, not that I think I'm good enough. Therefore lots of other better climbers also must not actively seek publicity. I did once get asked by Alpinist for info about a new winter route. I declined saying I didn't think it was relevant (get me, it's false modesty) and the editor replied with a curious remark. I questioned him, and he told me about how he often found himself having to deal with climber's narcissistic requests for publicity (he should change job if it bothered him that much). Is it just me who thinks narcissism's gone a bit rampant in climbing? - this guy seems to think so too: http://eveningsends.com/2012/06/a-desperate-search-for-climbings-soul/
 (http://eveningsends.com/2012/06/a-desperate-search-for-climbings-soul/)
If I'm honest I'd admit my default setting is I'm automatically suspicious of the motives of anyone who climbs at a level below the cutting edge and actively seeks publicity. That view might be a bit out of step in today's x-factor world. However the many climbers operating at just as high a level as the self-publicists, but who don't seek any publicity, prove that the two things aren't inherently necessary. I think combining climbing and seeking external reward through publicity requires more self-control over some part of the mind that deals with truth than some people are capable of. Which leads a small number of them to lies, as has been shown time after time. For recognition to be given, there should first be proof. Therefore it shouldn't be taboo to ask for it, if recognition is being asked for.


Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 08, 2013, 10:13:23 pm
I think this is an exceptionally slippery slope, and I'm pretty defensive on this because I've been through it. 

it's has started to become acceptable to reserve judgement and ask for more proof and that people no longer interpret this request as an accusation of lying.

You're probably right that it has started to be more acceptable, and this shows to me a huge lack of courtesy and respect.  The only people who should reasonably be able to ask that question without being offensive should be someone with skin in the game, i.e. sponsors, media, etc.  If as a fellow climber you want to ask that question, then it should be public and you should have to deal with the consequences if you're wrong. 

Honestly, when I read through this thread, I see alot of indirect slandering of John Gaskins.  If you don't believe him, say it.  If you do, say it. If you "reserve judgement" then keep your trap shut and reserve judgement. 

I had an experience with this about 15 years ago when I was fairly new to climbing.  I went on a roadtrip with a couple of "friends" and by the end things had gone sour.  When we got back,things were said behind my back, "doubts" about what I climbed.  It was all false as they saw me do what I did.  Unfortunately, I was an arrogant little shit and didn't have the standing in the community and I wasn't believed.  I lost a sponsorship opportunity, friends, community support, and had to spend the better part of the next 10 years rebuilding my integrity and reputation within the local climbing community.  The two guys who did this quit climbing shortly thereafter and I ended up paying the price.

What price did Fred Rouhling pay when he was called out by Huber on Akira?  What about Dai getting called out? Why shouldn't the one who called him out pay him back for all of the time and money he spent correcting their lie. It's easy to express "doubts" when you have no skin in the game, the internet is full of these people.  It's alot tougher when you do.   

If we as a community keep this up, who will we end up alienating?  What great characters and stories will we lose in this drive for proof? 

Pete has it right,
For recognition to be given, there should first be proof. Therefore it shouldn't be taboo to ask for it, if recognition is being asked for.
but that proof should also be proportional to the recognition.  Someone giving you info for a guidebook shouldn't be under the same burden as someone looking for sponsorship.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 08, 2013, 10:17:48 pm
I might come across as being at the skeptical end of the spectrum in this thread. That partly stems from climbing with Simpson for a day, before the suspicions arose, and listening to him talk 100% convincingly about his climbing and boxing. Only to .subsequently realise whilst researching Liquid Ambar's history for the NW lime guide that much of it was bullshit and that it would never be possible to separate the facts from the fantasies.

How are you dealing with Liquid Ambar in the guide ? It is one which has belayer/witness corroboration.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 08, 2013, 10:36:56 pm
Quote
I think you are the one seeing things as too black and white. It's not about "calling people out"

Totally agree. A point I've struggled to get across in the past, usually due to rising emotions as someone assumes they are being targeted. I tended towards scientific subjects at school and that approach to establishing facts has stayed with me, i.e.: its fine to have a hunch or theory, but you shouldn't get attached to it. You try to get some data and you accept what it tells you, even if it doesn't follow your hunch. Often the data doesn't answer your question, instead it suggests that maybe its the wrong question. In the far east, in addition to the simple answers 'yes' and 'no', they have the term mu or wu, which essentially means unask the question - there isn't an appropriate answer. When folk ask me whether I believe climber x or ascent y, I'm often tempted to reply mu; I don't have the information necessary to form an opinion. Unfortunately the credulous would prefer to deal in black and white, and generally can only conclude that by not believing I am therefore a doubter. I say leave belief to religion. Sport should deal with simple fact.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 08, 2013, 10:46:06 pm
I'm sorry Sasquatch but I completely disagree with you. In my opinion if someone has a reason to doubt a climbers ascents, they should feel free to voice that without feeling like the climbing world was going to come down on them like a sack of soggy shit.

The climbing community as a whole ought to responsible for upholding the integrity of reporting and recording of ascents. I don't think this  would result in character defamation for personal reasons because if everybody was involved then witnesses would come forwards readily to back people up.

Ps. I wouldn't say that I ever thought Simpson came across particularly well in videos but I was still gutted when the truth came out. I wanted to believe that we had another home grown world class athlete but it's not what I believe that will matter in decades to come, it's the truth. Without people voicing concerns this will clearly be made more difficult to find.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 08, 2013, 10:47:14 pm
Quote
I'm automatically suspicious of the motives of anyone who climbs at a level below the cutting edge and actively seeks publicity

Pete's point here is pretty interesting and deserving of some thought. When I was young and naive I assumed climbing fame was a meritocracy - the guys in the mags were the best, and the routes in the mags the hardest. Having since been lucky enough to climb with many of the names of the last 15 years or so, I now accept the reality is very different. Initially I had the disappointing realisation that it was more to do with how shameless you were at self-promotion. I became very cynical of the mags and tried to ensure my photography only publicised ascents that were generally worthy. A few more years down the line and I'm rather more relaxed about the way things work. A big part of that is due to the democratising effect of the internet on our news, but also because I've seen that in the long term, folk generally get what they deserve. The dark horses get their exposure and the chuffers get forgotten. I've also come to appreciate how hard it is to make a decent life just from climbing, and those that do deserve it, whether or not they are the 'best'. As the sport gets more diverse and ascents leapfrog each other, who would be the best anyway?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2013, 11:06:20 pm
How are you dealing with Liquid Ambar in the guide ? It is one which has belayer/witness corroboration.

I've written a short paragraph in the history section where Pete Robin's 2nd ascent is mentioned. It says Simpson has been proved to have lied about some claims (boxing) and that it's beyond any definition of reasonable doubt that he lied about other achievements (marathon, mile); and that, along with the lack of evidence of his ascents, sponsors dropping him, my experience of him lying to my face (see below) puts the credibility of all of his claims in serious doubt and it'll probably be impossible to ever know what's true and what's false.

Along those lines. I'm undecided on the final wording, or whether I've even got any right to say anything, who am I  :shrug:
I've seen Dan Townley's email saying he belayed Simpson on Liquid Ambar and Hubble. Normally that would be enough wouldn't it...

Funnily enough I discovered another Simpson lie last week - purely by accident whilst searching for an unrelated phrase in google. The day I climbed with him - Sunday August 29th 2011, he said he wanted to have a go at onsighting the route 'Ibex'. But it turns out a guy named Glyn had belayed him on it the day before that - Saturday 28th. I stumbled across his blog entry by accident whilst searching for dry-tooling. Another outright lie to my face. Little things like that make it impossible to take anything Simpson claims seriously.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Dave Flanagan on January 08, 2013, 11:16:46 pm
Honestly, when I read through this thread, I see alot of indirect slandering of John Gaskins.  If you don't believe him, say it.  If you do, say it. If you "reserve judgement" then keep your trap shut and reserve judgement. 

There you go black and white again. Reserving judgement means someone is undecided or has doubts. They are, rather than rushing to go one way or the other, waiting to see if more information, or evidence if you like, will come to light. This seems pretty reasonable to me.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Kingy on January 08, 2013, 11:18:27 pm
How are you dealing with Liquid Ambar in the guide ? It is one which has belayer/witness corroboration.

I've written a short paragraph in the history section where Pete Robin's 2nd ascent is mentioned.

Ben Moon did the 2nd ascent in 1990 if I recall correctly
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 08, 2013, 11:31:43 pm
I'm sorry Sasquatch but I completely disagree with you. In my opinion if someone has a reason to doubt a climbers ascents, they should feel free to voice that without feeling like the climbing world was going to come down on them like a sack of soggy shit.

I have two thought on this:

1.  I agree that if a person has reason to doubt someone else, then they should feel free to voice that doubt.  In public and not anonymously. 

2. If the accuser is wrong, then they also have an obligation to publicly come out and say so with as much or more force than the original questioning.
 

Honestly, when I read through this thread, I see alot of indirect slandering of John Gaskins.  If you don't believe him, say it.  If you do, say it. If you "reserve judgement" then keep your trap shut and reserve judgement. 
There you go black and white again. Reserving judgement means someone is undecided or has doubts. They are, rather than rushing to go one way or the other, waiting to see if more information, or evidence if you like, will come to light. This seems pretty reasonable to me.
I agree.  But if you are waiting for more informatin, then wait.  Once you air something in the public domain, you'd better be willing to take the stance I put above. 

Also, I reread the thread, and you're right that people have kept it pretty positive here.  I was confused by links to other, less positive threads.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 08, 2013, 11:47:55 pm
Apologies, 3rd ascent  :-[    (or 4th)

and the blog entry for anyone who thinks my point was a bit vague: http://adventuresplusnorthwales.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/slate-dry-tooling.html (http://adventuresplusnorthwales.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/slate-dry-tooling.html)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 09, 2013, 12:09:38 am
Unless you're claiming to have done new probs or routes, or repeated cutting edge probs or routes, nobody really cares. Are/have you?

Kind of disagree, if someone starts out bullshitting when they're doing new problems/routes at lower grades it'll then carry over when they reach the upper echelons that people are saying that it does matter.

Bullshitters are bullshitters, no matter what grade they are climbing, and saying it doesn't matter unless its cutting edge will result in an increase in its prevalence which then filters up to the areas you are saying it does matter.

You're probably right that it has started to be more acceptable, and this shows to me a huge lack of courtesy and respect.  The only people who should reasonably be able to ask that question without being offensive should be someone with skin in the game, i.e. sponsors, media, etc.  If as a fellow climber you want to ask that question, then it should be public and you should have to deal with the consequences if you're wrong. 

I also tend to disagree with this based on my "professional" (for want of a better phrase!) work in science/academia*.

When you submit a piece of work to a peer reviewed journal it is scrutinized in detail to assess its validity.  People aren't given the benefit of doubt and are expected to be up front about what they have done so that others can go out and replicate it, no matter how hard the technique they have used is to master.  There's nothing wrong with questioning anything, its how society has progressed over the years.

I see some parallels with what is being suggested here, ie. back up your claimed ascent, otherwise it will be doubted (not necessarily completely dismissed/ignored).

Quote from: Charles Darwin
To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact.



* Caveat - Yes I realise that this is a pass-time/leisure activity for many and in that regard bears no relevance to science/academia as its all about personal endeavor, but what people are talking about here is essentially money, people who are courting sponsorship by claiming ascents that they may not have done.  If I went for a job interview (akin to seeking sponsorship) I'd be expected to prove my track record, be it through recognised qualifications or through a series of past jobs with demonstrable achievements that are well documented.

EDIT : Thats not to say that peer-review or job recruitment is flawless, both are fallible as has been demonstrated.  Its also good that this discussion is happening so that people know what to expect.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 09, 2013, 12:27:36 am
You know, on many many occasions, I like so many others of you have longed to read something new from John. I've also thought on many occasions how a real effort made to speak with him might yield some further interesting and historical minutiae. Who is to say whether he may or may not have some more images or video of interest? Perhaps leave out this wish to see such media at the expense of appearing as a witch hunt? It absolutely shouldn't be one. Not that one can or should artificially engineer a rapport but somebody with an existing friendly rapport would be a good start to attempt forging a new dialogue that he might allow for dissemination to the climbing community. Perhaps, perhaps not.

Will we continue to long for 'more' or might somebody not be able to meet and convince John of the magnitude and historical importance of his achievements? Who can blame him for losing interest in it all post Bock spat. I'd probably want to burrow away if somebody publicly character assassinated me in my professional line. Others might retaliate in a bid to restore their profile. Different strokes.

Days pass and my intrigue about the man never relents. I don't know why this is, but I'm completely drawn to anybody so devoted to any pursuit and in any other sport, you'd be able to buy voluminous collections about such an athlete.

I believe that much as the man might be of enormous fortitude physically, his retiring, unassuming and seemingly content disposition might never allow for much further insight into the makeup of a man I consider to be brilliant. This saddens me.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 09, 2013, 12:41:01 am
 :oops: hit quote instead of modify.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 09, 2013, 01:05:59 am
Dan I said no such thing as its better to have a bullshitter than a witness or video evidence. Im not even sure I mentioned a witness in the whole thread, I keep saying about the video bit. We're even getting tips from people about how to work up to being in your own vid for gods sake. This thread is getting screwed up into black and white and people saying someone else is wrong and they're right or someone's believing and someone's not. Why you yourself said I made my mind up years ago by comparing probs and being able to do none, I've never been a good climber I'm the second to admit that and have never suggested otherwise but it was nice of you to remind me. My beef, if you like, here is you compare probs definitively with something that's not definite.
I think Sasquatch has been on the money quite a lot of times, nothings changed and nothing will. Just cos people have a new medium doesn't mean too much. Everyone on here knows how it works as much as I do. Let's take ondra, loads of vids of him, however if there wasn't, someone will say fuck me sideways there's this Czech kid with a swan neck, best thing I've ever seen but can't dance for shit. Someone else will say who told you this. John. What John John he's full of shit. Ok Peter told me the same thing. What Peter pete, fuck wait til I see him he knows the score etc etc. I've never seen Michi tresch climb but I know he's bloody good. Why? Because he's climbed with friends who's opinions I trust on the subject.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Andy W on January 09, 2013, 11:47:47 am
 

Mao Zedong's old motto is pertinent; 'Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.' yes I know he was a bit of a dictator.

Doubt is doubt, its possible to have degrees of doubt. If Rich Simpson did some routes and not others which seems pretty clear now, it is tough for guide book writers and all those on here seeking absolute proof and truth, for they have to go with either one version or the other. Neither ultimately being the complete truth.

The messy nature of climbing, truth/history is surely one of the attractions. If it becomes more like athletics say, then that will be a loss and a shame.

The context for the mess is now predominantly the internet. Knowledge becomes teasingly close, yet unattainable  to the multitude and the overall effect is reductionist and often revisionist.

Videoing ascents seems entirely that of choice. If you choose to have sponsors and court the media then it seems a pre requisite of that contract. If you climb for other reasons like I imagine the majority then its a choice. The other issue, I'm afraid I don't understand, people tell the truth, lie a little and sometimes quite a lot. As individuals  we negotiate our way through this sort of stuff on a daily basis.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 09, 2013, 11:54:24 am
A solution is to classify FA's where there is doubt for one reason or another in the guidebook writers mind. 

Maybe annotate an FA as (U) for unproven.

This should prompt evidence (witness or footage) to be put forward if it exists for subsequent editions.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: andy_e on January 09, 2013, 12:03:31 pm
I've got a new highball 8A/+ (V11/12) which is only 7C+/8A with a kneebar and nobody saw me do it. It'll be written up in the guidebook as follows:

Andy's Really Real Problem 8A/+ (7C+/8A KB) (U) (P3) (!)

Or is that just being ridiculous?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2013, 12:07:40 pm
I think this is an exceptionally slippery slope, and I'm pretty defensive on this because I've been through it. 

it's has started to become acceptable to reserve judgement and ask for more proof and that people no longer interpret this request as an accusation of lying.

You're probably right that it has started to be more acceptable, and this shows to me a huge lack of courtesy and respect.  The only people who should reasonably be able to ask that question without being offensive should be someone with skin in the game, i.e. sponsors, media, etc.  If as a fellow climber you want to ask that question, then it should be public and you should have to deal with the consequences if you're wrong. 

Honestly, when I read through this thread, I see alot of indirect slandering of John Gaskins.  If you don't believe him, say it.  If you do, say it. If you "reserve judgement" then keep your trap shut and reserve judgement. 

I had an experience with this about 15 years ago when I was fairly new to climbing.  I went on a roadtrip with a couple of "friends" and by the end things had gone sour.  When we got back,things were said behind my back, "doubts" about what I climbed.  It was all false as they saw me do what I did.  Unfortunately, I was an arrogant little shit and didn't have the standing in the community and I wasn't believed.  I lost a sponsorship opportunity, friends, community support, and had to spend the better part of the next 10 years rebuilding my integrity and reputation within the local climbing community.  The two guys who did this quit climbing shortly thereafter and I ended up paying the price.

What price did Fred Rouhling pay when he was called out by Huber on Akira?  What about Dai getting called out? Why shouldn't the one who called him out pay him back for all of the time and money he spent correcting their lie. It's easy to express "doubts" when you have no skin in the game, the internet is full of these people.  It's alot tougher when you do.   

If we as a community keep this up, who will we end up alienating?  What great characters and stories will we lose in this drive for proof? 

Pete has it right,
For recognition to be given, there should first be proof. Therefore it shouldn't be taboo to ask for it, if recognition is being asked for.
but that proof should also be proportional to the recognition.  Someone giving you info for a guidebook shouldn't be under the same burden as someone looking for sponsorship.

The thrust of what people are suggesting is to avoid this sort of negative scenario occurring. It's about establishing what the reasonable expectations of the climbing community are in respect of verification prior to a significant ascents. In the past climbers could justifiably complain about being asked to produce evidence after the fact as there was not a very well established expectation with regard to this. If we are at a point, and I personally think we are, where all involved parties realise what is expected then the situation is very different to the past. It is a given that under some circumstances (pointed out elsewhere in this thread) the community expects some quality verification, typically video. As this is the new status quo the person asking for verification can no longer be dubbed an accuser (as often happened before) merely for asking a question, the person is in effect acting as a voice for the wider climbing community in his request (assuming it is reasonable). The climber has every right to refuse to provide this evidence, but as the expectation of verification is well established from the outset he/she cannot complain if this refusal leads to people doubting his/her achievements.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 09, 2013, 12:12:36 pm
I've got a new highball 8A/+ (V11/12) which is only 7C+/8A with a kneebar and nobody saw me do it. It'll be written up in the guidebook as follows:

Andy's Really Real Problem 8A/+ (7C+/8A KB) (U) (P3) (!)

Or is that just being ridiculous?

The annotation would be against the first ascentionist's name not the grade. That might be in a separate history section depending on the guide. Also it need only be deployed if there is any doubt.   
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 09, 2013, 12:28:16 pm
Or it was a cave link up with split sport grade too then it could be 8A/+(8b/+)[(KB 7C/+ (8a/+)) U]. Which if I'm not mistaken was the formula used at CERN for discovering the Higgs Boson.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: carlisle slapper on January 09, 2013, 02:09:01 pm
Bon Joy's just summed it up really well there (and JB. There is no reason to get worked up if you get asked for proof. The question is, is it better if those with a high level of credibility willingly provide proof (which might make those who dont feel guilty) or if they hold back a bit to make it less pressured for those who dont want to film or have everything witnessed.

Dense it was only this point i unfairly singled out.
Quote
If a person does not want to or for some reason didnt video himself doing something he does not need to, historical significance or no,
surely you'd have preferred Chas coopers 8A in oldham to actually have been there? (if it was a good problem) It does make climbing lamer if everything needs vids but i think there is a middle ground worth encouraging where climbers shouldn't feel put out if asked for proof if it puts a stop to the odd person taking climbing on a jolly for their own amusement/motives. I'd be annoyed if everyone asked me for proof for sure. But not if i was getting an article written about an ascent or sending info into guides.

Quote
I say leave belief to religion. Sport should deal with simple fact.
Amen!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: GCW on January 09, 2013, 02:19:23 pm
I would have thought it a little naive nowadays for someone to be claiming problems and not have any proof for the ascents.  I don't think every new problem should have a video online somewhere, but if there were no witnesses why not film a decent proprtion of one's FAs?  At least if someone later starts to doubt, those doubts could easily be dealt with.

I think times have changed a lot- people were always given the benefit of the doubt, but this has been rather dented by recent cases where people have been exposed.  Sad really.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Snoops on January 09, 2013, 02:21:05 pm
Forgive me if this seems a simple solution:

(A) You are a climber who either likes the limelight, want or/need sponsorship, or are keen for people (outside your close friends) to know that you bagged the 1st/2nd ascent of a route etc (You want your name in the guidebook). Then the prerequiste is a some phone footage. You have decided you want people to know, therefore you can take the  (little) time and effort to do this.
Failure to this means you will be ignored - after all I can't tell you all the earth doesn't spin without showing some evidence.

(B) You are a climber who is not interested in the limelight. You prefer to do you own thing, and shun publicity. Ergo you won't want or need to take video footage. So you can climb in peace, and being the chilled content soul that you are, it doesn't matter if someone else claims your 2nd ascent etc because - you weren't bothered and you had your moment to yourself.... but you can't whine when your name's not in the book......
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: slackline on January 09, 2013, 03:10:41 pm
Failure to this means you will be ignored - after all I can't tell you all the earth doesn't spin without showing some evidence.

Yes you can, but you will be doubted until you provide evidence!
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 09, 2013, 03:45:59 pm
Or it was a cave link up with split sport grade too then it could be 8A/+(8b/+)[(KB 7C/+ (8a/+)) U]. Which if I'm not mistaken was the formula used at CERN for discovering the Higgs Boson.

😄😄😄😄😄😂

In other sports, who have had to face-up to an increasing "professional" element (and I don't mean instructors etc); this sort of question has become the domain of "Governing bodies"...

We have one of those ( ish... Loosely... Sorta...).

My skin crawls at the thought of some committee, ruling on on such matters.

Imagine the "National institute of Guidebook writers" code of practice for new route inclusion...

But...

The court of public opinion, sucks.

By and large, we get by fairly well.

Video's nice, hard to argue with and it's great to see some uber wad doing things I can only dream of.

It has to come down to the guide writer/Editor/reporter's judgement at time of reporting. If later evidence proves their initial judgement false, no blame lies with them.

There are, after all, few certainties in life and if someone wants to bullshit; they will.
Not only does it become easier to record video footage as time goes by, it also becomes easier to fake it (I guess, not my area). A sophisticated liar is still a liar.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2013, 04:06:19 pm
Creating a fake unedited ascent of a hard problem would be extremely difficult even for a hollywood studio I suspect. I cannot forsee this ever becoming much easier due to the nature of the excercise.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: jwi on January 09, 2013, 04:15:05 pm
Much as I enjoy this epistemological debate Hume's said it all when he wrote "A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence".
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 09, 2013, 04:17:42 pm
Creating a fake unedited ascent of a hard problem would be extremely difficult even for a hollywood studio I suspect. I cannot forsee this ever becoming much easier due to the nature of the excercise.
Don't be so sure. On many problems there would be easy ways to "cheat" the video based on camera location....

Much as I enjoy this epistemological debate Hume's said it all when he wrote "A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence".
:agree:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 09, 2013, 04:25:57 pm
Creating a fake unedited ascent of a hard problem would be extremely difficult even for a hollywood studio I suspect. I cannot forsee this ever becoming much easier due to the nature of the excercise.
Don't be so sure. On many problems there would be easy ways to "cheat" the video based on camera location....

Much as I enjoy this epistemological debate Hume's said it all when he wrote "A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence".
:agree:
Sasquatch - Maybe on a small proportion of lines (e.g arete with hanging rope round corner). Even so I don't think it's easy enough or likely enough to be a major issue.

jwi - Maybe so and a wise bullshitter will therefore proportion his bullshit according to other people's wisdom.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 09, 2013, 04:35:39 pm
Sasquatch - Maybe on a small proportion of lines (e.g arete with hanging rope round corner). Even so I don't think it's easy enough or likely enough to be a major issue.

Remember that climbers cheat their asses off all the time.  i.e. the "American" sit start (that isn't actually a sit start, but is actually a squat start), Stacking pads to reach a different starting position, etc.  I can guarantee that the same people willing to lie are willing to fake a video.  I had a problem I did this summer (new FA of top difficulty in AK) where on the go before I sent, I dabbed really hard.  I knew it helped alot, but finished anyway and went back and did it again clean.  On the video, you don't even notice the dab.

I honestly think witnesses are better than video. 

On a lighter note, Everyone, please keeping videoing and posting the hard stuff, because I find it inspiring to watch people crush! and you get the bonus of establishing a higher level of integrity. 
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Danny on January 09, 2013, 05:46:36 pm
Sasquatch - Maybe on a small proportion of lines (e.g arete with hanging rope round corner). Even so I don't think it's easy enough or likely enough to be a major issue.

Remember that climbers cheat their asses off all the time.  i.e. the "American" sit start (that isn't actually a sit start, but is actually a squat start), Stacking pads to reach a different starting position, etc.  I can guarantee that the same people willing to lie are willing to fake a video.  I had a problem I did this summer (new FA of top difficulty in AK) where on the go before I sent, I dabbed really hard.  I knew it helped alot, but finished anyway and went back and did it again clean.  On the video, you don't even notice the dab.


Aye, but you were obviously pretty close to doing it on the dab go in any case, which in itself counts for something. Imagine if someone posted a vid of a few moves being strung together on Shadowplay, for example - even something like that would substantially change the nature of the Gaskins related conversation. 

I agree with bonjoy; faking unedited ascent footage would almost always be next to impossible.
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 09, 2013, 06:58:32 pm
The requirement should be that ascents are filmed on 16mm cine film.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Sasquatch on January 09, 2013, 07:17:26 pm
The requirement should be that ascents are filmed on 16mm cine film.

 :agree:

It'll open a whole new world of FA possibilities :) 

it'll be the FFA (First Film ascent)  ;D
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nemo on January 09, 2013, 07:20:07 pm
Perhaps it will be constructive to explain what happened at Almscliff.  It’s the only Gaskins problem I really know much about – and given the confusion around it, it’s not hard to see why there are skeptics elsewhere.  The problem he actually climbed turned out to be a completely different line to what everyone had thought it was for over a decade  – the cause being a combination of vague descriptions and vague diagrams in guidebooks.  To those who think it’s impossible to sort these things, it’s worth noting that a polite request from the YMC guide team did the trick in this case – a detailed description was provided which cleared up the mess.  Note – it was complete pot luck that the problem now known as Identity Crisis turned out to be climbable at 8A+ - it could very easily have been another problem which seemed impossible or Font 9A or whatever.  I can’t help wondering how many other of the controversial problems where the grades seem way out aren’t similar situations.

Quote
"in itself surely a Font 9a position" - Monolith
Sorry to pick on this out of the many possible examples, but it’s this kind of myth making which I really don’t think helps anyone.  He’s still in the toe hooks – the hard bit is presumably going to be leaving them.  I actually think some of the more over the top worshipping really hasn’t done him any favours – along with the vague details, it’s had the effect of putting his stuff into a mythical land, when the reality is probably a bit more down to earth.

Quote
"which has to have lost the big foothold off it for john not to be levitating" - Carlisle Slapper
Has anyone actually asked him to go and have a look at Shadowplay in recent years – if he saw it, he may well roll around laughing and point out that all the holds have fallen off???  I really think that those who know him would be doing both him and everyone else a favour, if they managed to arrange to go with him and check his hard problems out – find out if they are still in the state he climbed them in, and if so, what on earth beta he used for things like Shadowplay.  Clearly there’s never going to be any “proof” of problems he climbed on his own.  But I think most of the controversy revolves around problems which look pretty much impossible.  If there’s a simple explanation (e.g hold loss) then maybe most of the controversy will disappear?  And if they are still in their original state, then it’s a great shame that there isn’t more clarity so they get the credit they deserve and so people would come and try them.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 09, 2013, 10:42:33 pm
I hear you Nemo and I understand how myth making has and will always exist in climbing but there really do seem to be a number of credible witnesses (Ben Pritch and others) who have seen him performing impressively enough for me to accept him as he is. A close friend of mine used (as did some others in the South Lakes) to arrive at Raven Tor "super early" only to find him packing up done for the day. This attitude to me at least is demonstrable of a genuine go getter. To reiterate my earlier point, John could easily have claimed the Brandenburg Gate project after all that effort, yet he never did. The Shelter Stone project might similarly have been claimed yet it wasn't. Call it blind faith, call it what you want, I just believe.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 09, 2013, 11:00:38 pm
He might be in the toe hooks but strong fingered McClure couldn't even hang them.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Turboman on January 09, 2013, 11:14:02 pm
A close friend of mine used to arrive at Raven Tor "super early" only to find him packing up done for the day. This attitude to me at least is demonstrable of a genuine go getter.

I used to do a 7:30am start at the Tor and on several occasions saw Gaskins on the Brandenburg project. He seemed a quiet/private guy so we didn't engage him in conversation, just the odd 'hi'/nod of the head.  To drive from Lakes to Tor for a pre 7:30am start takes a big effort.  What stands out in my mind was that he would drag his misses along with him. She didn't climb and would scurry back to the car for a warm up between belaying (not looking too happy about it either).  He certainly appeared to be putting some effort in and taking some grief.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 09, 2013, 11:15:24 pm
Take a close look in the centre of the Yorkshire routes guide. They (possibly on really the left one) are very very marginal, certainly not a heel-toe cam. As Doylo says too.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 11, 2013, 12:26:16 pm
I was lucky enough to climb and meet with Jon on many occasions.  I sessioned in Wales with him, which is where I discussed the Pil Box project with him.  We hit Sway On, Diesel Power and a couple of other places.  Very strong, but very project oriented.  He went home with Sway on and Diesel Power (sub 30 mins), and flashed SubSociety (8a).

I also had a session with him on his board.  I was absolutely shocked how strong he was.  I've climbed with a good handful of top UK wads, and also International wads, and he was in a different league.

He demonstrated the moves he had used to train for VNB - all harder that moves on the route, and did all.  The speed of movement, and the contact involved was mind blowing.

Not watched him on many of his test pieces, but wouldn't doubt them for a second.  For those who missed him when he was operating - you wouldn't be commenting on this thread if you had.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Falling Down on January 11, 2013, 12:29:34 pm
Good post Chris.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: andy_e on January 11, 2013, 12:31:35 pm
Yeah, makes me want to invent a time machine and join you guys on those sessions.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Greg C on January 11, 2013, 12:43:23 pm
With regards to the history of Traci Lords:

Dan's account is roughly correct. At the time, I had been trying what became Traci Lords for a while but in the meantime had recorded some of the other stuff done up there (Stella, Hades Lair etc.) which prompted a conversation with John where I mention the wall that became Traci, and that it was great and seemed really tough. He voiced an interest in going up there, so I (politely) asked if he would stay off Traci for the time being, which he agreed too. Shortly after this he scoped out the area whilst on a walk or run, and subsequently mentioned that Traci looked about V10. This is why when I eventually climbed it I graded it V10 - at the time I simply hadn't climbed enough other hard stuff to realise this was way short of the mark. On top of this, when Gaskins went on to repeat (flash) Traci and then do the sitter, a week or two later, he confirmed that the stand was indeed V10. It is basic - if you are strong enough to climb 8B+ in a session I guess it seemed V10.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 11, 2013, 08:41:41 pm
Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.
Also pritch has changed his story from him pissing some moves and looking like a gecko to pissing all of them, which is a different story I've heard from elsewhere.
Is time weighing heavy on your memories or Alzheimer's kicking in? I'm just saying this so people keep an open mind.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: nodder on January 11, 2013, 10:01:07 pm
Quote
Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.


Nodder wasnt there.  Nodder has never climbed in the cave with Mr G.  Nodder was in the pub as it was decided that Mr G wasn't ready for James. 

The three 8a's thing has definatlly been mentioned to me before.  I am pretty sure it happened, although I have no video.   


Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 11, 2013, 10:28:31 pm
So we're all in agreement then.....

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: c.j.d. on January 12, 2013, 05:04:23 pm
Never really bothered to tell anyone, we just had a good scene on the rocks - hardly world importance, but relevant here.  Not climbed in the cave with him, so I'm guessing the 'he's shit in the cave' was a boozy comment in the Fricsan or similar.

Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 12, 2013, 06:39:27 pm
Panton said in his article that the Cave threw him a bit
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 12, 2013, 07:10:00 pm
It was probably the just scale of the place after Woodwell.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: benpritch on January 12, 2013, 07:38:55 pm
Chris when I spoke to you about John a long time ago all you and nodder said was that you both saw him do undercut moves on his board which looked very hard and that he was shit in the cave, you never mentioned anything at all about climbing with him any other time or pissing these 3 8a's, this was after pill box btw. I find this rather unusual to come out in the woodwork now since he's been discussed b4 many times.
Also pritch has changed his story from him pissing some moves and looking like a gecko to pissing all of them, which is a different story I've heard from elsewhere.
Is time weighing heavy on your memories or Alzheimer's kicking in? I'm just saying this so people keep an open mind.

I may well have some age related mental problems but I never said he was pissing anything. He was definitely trying really hard , but at the same time doing very well. I will talk to Rich Heap who was there also and see if he can corroborate my story although he may well be as chronologically challenged as me. What's the story you have heard from 'elsewhere"?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 12, 2013, 07:50:44 pm
It was probably the just scale of the place after Woodwell.
Ha ha

What's the story you have heard from 'elsewhere"?
Micky and Scott told him G was a ghost ..
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Nemo on January 12, 2013, 08:11:08 pm
Great to see some facts from c.j.d above.  He was obviously a seriously impressive climber. 

I also saw him years ago at the Tor - as Turboman said, you don’t go there as early as he was unless you’re properly psyched to get stuff done.  Along with what others have said and the level of detail provided at Almscliff 20 years after the event - I’m quite happy to believe what he says.  The point I was making above though is that no one really seems at all sure what HE says about some of his hard problems like Shadowplay.  He may well say it’s no longer climbable.  Whilst that’s the case I just think a lot of the arguments – whether Shadowplay is the hardest problem in the world etc – are pretty futile.  To me at least, it’s different from most controversies, in that what’s required to sort it isn’t proof – it’s just clarity about what the claims are.  Without that clarity, I fear the arguments will just run and run.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 12, 2013, 11:34:59 pm
Ben you said, you had seen a lot of great climbers but nothing like him, that's not word for word people can check earlier in the thread if they feel it necessary.
If it looks like I'm on a witch hunt I'm certainly not, lest people forget it was me that first brought up bens quality b.gate story in response to a thread yrs ago when more doubts were flying around, quite possibly the bock thread.
What we've got here is me playing devils advocate to people who blindly believe or to Chris' story about him doing 3 8a's. People are coming on saying nice one Chris that's brilliant, boom. As if doing 3 8a's quickly counts as anything like proof for doing quite a few 8c's.
For people that don't know how hard 8c is, ie everyone apart from a couple in britain, the weaker Webb has flashed 8b, thrown laps on demand on desperanza 8b+/8c, done numerous 8b+ problems, flashed numerous 8a's etc and after all this still doesn't think he's capable of climbing 8c. This is not to compare people it's to give some scale of what's involved at such a level. For putting him as some kind of example he's gonna kill me.
Nemo why don't we need proof off John but we do off others? I'm intrigued
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Moo on January 13, 2013, 12:04:58 am
surely he won't kill you dense, or is it a star crossed lovers type thing?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 13, 2013, 12:21:48 am
I didn't actually mean that I'll beat the skinny fucker to death if he says anything but for the sake of all this everybody loves everybody zen shit I thought I'd do my bit, and it turns out he's younger than me so cos I've got a pma towards him I'm automatically a better climber. Win win
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jim on January 13, 2013, 09:31:41 am
Yes, it seems like that cos someones come forward and said they've seen John do this and that, that automatically people start thinking, he must be a beast, how could we ever of doubted him etc...
Don't forget Simpson was also an absolute beast, but the evidence seems to stack up against him that he didn't do a lot of the things he'd claimed. I don't think there was much doubt he would of been physically capable, but just cos someone is a beast on the board (or even holding geometries) doesn't mean they've done anything.

Gaskins- I want to believe...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 13, 2013, 10:10:54 am
The thing some people seem to be forgetting is there's a few things that separates the Gaskins from bullshitters people seem to be comparing him to:

- He doesn't seem to have every really sought publicity or operated in any climbing social circles where a bullshitter might feel the need to bullshit to look like the big man or impress people. Was never pushed in mag photos/adverts till relatively late in his career. To me this stacks up well in his favour, cos known bullshitters generally do it to gain fame/peer approval, all of which really seem to be lacking for Gaskins.
- He doesn't seem to have had anything to show for it in terms of material gain, i.e. free gear, boots, paid for climbing trips. Other bullshitters have had this and its clearly a motivator for the bullshitter, but all I can see Gaskins getting (correct me if I'm wrong) is boots from Boreal and a few mega-grip mats. And as far as I'm concerned this is more of a punishment than a reward, bearing in mind he will have been one of the top 10 climbers in the world at any time during his career. Its actually insulting how little material gain he will have got, but looks like he didn't pursue it. To me this again stacks up in his favour, as confirmed bullshitters (Si O aside as he's a mental) always seem to manage to cash-in.
- People have seen him climb stuff, and being strong, and whats more seen him do this over a period of 10-15 years. I doubt most bullshitters would have the patience to bullshit for this long and still get basically fuck-all recognition or free gear.

In conclusion, if he was a bullshitter he was fucking rubbish at it.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 13, 2013, 10:17:36 am
What utter rubbish
Title: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: dave on January 13, 2013, 10:27:43 am
I knew you'd say that.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 13, 2013, 10:59:45 am
Nemo why don't we need proof off John but we do off others? I'm intrigued

It's not that we don't 'need' proof of Gaskin's beastliness (who 'needs' proof - 'would like', yes). I think it's more the case that it's an impossibility for there to be any conclusive proof unless Gaskins decides to do the problems again and also vids/witness them. Whereas in more recent cases, having no witnesses and no video is much more unusual. Due in part to threads like this and others.
One of the main points coming out of this thread is that a lot of people agree that it's desirable to create an environment in which it's harder to thrive as a liar, compared to the 90's/noughties (and earlier). Anything that's gone before is water under the bridge, but going forward if the culture has shifted, which it look like it is doing, then hopefully there'll be less incentive for doubtful or unproven 'hardest probs/routes/biggest wads in the country' because part of the incentive, recognition, is removed. That to me seems like a good thing to aspire to if it results in fewer ridiculous situations like Simpson/ the hardest boulder probs in the UK being completely unknown quantities.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 13, 2013, 11:19:22 am
Quote
confirmed bullshitters (Si O aside as he's a mental) always seem to manage to cash-in

How many bullshitters have actually been 'confirmed'? I'd say only two - Simpson and Si 'O, though Simpson was clearly strong enough to do some of what his claimed, and the Kentmere thread above would actually seem to add to Si 'O's credibility with Gaskins confirming his grades. Other who have been called out seem to have largely weathered the doubt. So for those of us who would like to form an opinion other than 'mu', its clear as mud.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jim on January 13, 2013, 12:05:52 pm
I'd say at least 3  :worms:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Doylo on January 13, 2013, 12:17:49 pm
I ve encountered a few over the years!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: a dense loner on January 13, 2013, 01:37:57 pm
No bullshitters have been confirmed, you can't confirm anything after the fact. Loads of people on here, the majority, thought Simpson was the real deal. A few people called him out, so to speak, loads on here were defending him to the hilt, saying stuff like I saw him do x I saw him do y I know someone who belayed him on z. Myself and a few others got a bit of flak over this. Even the marathon and the boxing didn't persuade people, only when the Brandler- hasse story came out did everyone jump on the bandwagon and say what a bullshitter he was, and take every oppurtunity to bring his name up in these cases. So I'm sorry if someone who many people who saw him over many times doing mutant stuff, cos he was in a different league strength wise, turns out to be doubted, or as a confirmed bullshitter yet someone who has been seen to do nx to nothing yet has a cult following of people who claim his stuff to be among the hardest problems in the world gets a free pass. Absolute madness is what all this reads as
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Monolith on January 13, 2013, 02:12:13 pm
The Gaskins Inquiry.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: willackers on January 13, 2013, 02:27:20 pm
 Everyone knows you go straight to hell if you bad mouth Gaskins  :devil-smiley:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 13, 2013, 02:33:53 pm
Fact is nobody had the gumption/balls to sort the matter out one way or the other at the time and now it will remain forever moot. That's pretty much it. Unless new stuff comes to light I can't see much point chewing over the Gaskins thing now. Anyone who pretends they know all his stuff is either fact or fiction is kidding themselves and fooling few others. Take the lessons and move on. Gaskins is and will always be an unknown quantity.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: lmarenzi on January 13, 2013, 06:04:43 pm
Don't know or care what Simpson climbed or not, but it was proven that he didn't run the marathon or the 4 minute mile as claimed, or that he was close to the Olympic boxing squad, as was claimed. It was also obvious from his published "write up" that he had never been to the Cima Grande di Lavaredo, contrary to his claims to have have done at least 4 big climbs on that face. He also claimed to have climbed a number of routes, none of which he cared or was able to name a belayer for. As a result of all this only a fool would credit him with any ascent unless incontrovertible proof were supplied, and quite rightly so.

I also don't know what Gaskins has climbed or not. It just seems that by and large, there seems to be a lot of talk of his problems being too hard (for the grade and absolutely) but when they see a repeat they mostly check out. In fact, rather than no-one being good enough to do his problems, I am unaware of any claims that there is anything unusual about them.

Unlike some other boulderers he seems to have preferred to do local problems, on his own, and back in the day did not bother videoing his climbs. Nothing wrong with any of that, in my view. I rather feel that its a bit of good fortune that anything is known about him at all.

I personally I have no more doubt about his FAs than most claimed hard ascents in the history of climbing.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: petejh on January 13, 2013, 06:11:42 pm
 :agree: Sort of.  Good comparison.


Have Gaskins, Si O'Connor and Simpson ever been seen together in the same place?

Thought not.  :-\ The plot thickens...
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 14, 2013, 08:50:06 am
You can make a sketchy case either way. What’s the point? There isn’t enough info to make a strong case either way, so it’s all just statements of faith. Both sides cases have merit, neither has more weight than the other. Which side people fall on seems more to do with them and their world view than the merits of the evidence. Why can’t people just accept this is an unanswerable question, it’s a maybe rather than a yes or no? Mu, mu, sad but true.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2013, 11:07:17 am
You can make a sketchy case either way. What’s the point? There isn’t enough info to make a strong case either way, so it’s all just statements of faith. Both sides cases have merit, neither has more weight than the other. Which side people fall on seems more to do with them and their world view than the merits of the evidence. Why can’t people just accept this is an unanswerable question, it’s a maybe rather than a yes or no? Mu, mu, sad but true.

I agree. Still worth encouraging people to share what they have seen him do for the record.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Bonjoy on January 14, 2013, 11:19:59 am
Of course. The more info the better.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Stenno on January 17, 2013, 02:29:55 am
I'd say this is the perfect example of how useful uncut footage can be, especially for climbers coming off the competition circuit who don't have the benefit of a season of hard outdoor sends to their name because of that time commitment. 

The Big Island, 8C on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/57541771)

Absolutely unquestionable and very easy for the climber to film. Great effort by GG too!
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Three Nine on January 17, 2013, 09:22:03 am
No bullshitters have been confirmed, you can't confirm anything after the fact. Loads of people on here, the majority, thought Simpson was the real deal. A few people called him out, so to speak, loads on here were defending him to the hilt, saying stuff like I saw him do x I saw him do y I know someone who belayed him on z. Myself and a few others got a bit of flak over this. Even the marathon and the boxing didn't persuade people, only when the Brandler- hasse story came out did everyone jump on the bandwagon and say what a bullshitter he was, and take every oppurtunity to bring his name up in these cases. So I'm sorry if someone who many people who saw him over many times doing mutant stuff, cos he was in a different league strength wise, turns out to be doubted, or as a confirmed bullshitter yet someone who has been seen to do nx to nothing yet has a cult following of people who claim his stuff to be among the hardest problems in the world gets a free pass. Absolute madness is what all this reads as

Ever thought about learning English, Dense?
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 17, 2013, 11:09:37 am
I'd say this is the perfect example of how useful uncut footage can be, especially for climbers coming off the competition circuit who don't have the benefit of a season of hard outdoor sends to their name because of that time commitment. 

I don't get you. This guy has loads of witnessed and filmed quick hard ascents (e.g) (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/guillaume-glairon-mondet-putting-face-name) to his name plus everyone has seen what a total monster he is on the comp circuit. Surely the perfect example of someone who has absolutely no need for video evidence of every hard problem he does (and he had at least one witness there too)?
 :shrug:
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: yankcranker on January 17, 2013, 12:13:17 pm
Quote
Lying makes no sense to me unless you’re weak and have alot to prove. Strong climbers are strong fact.

Although this would seem to be counter to the most notorious recent case. Why is Britain so obsessed with using the term 'strong' instead of 'good'? As dense will tell you, being strong is barely half the story...

lol, dude overuse of the word "strong" is hardly a british phenomenon. what really tickles me is when its used to describe a climber with the BMI of your average pre-adolescent girl.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: tim palmer on January 17, 2013, 04:08:36 pm
[lol, dude overuse of the word "strong" is hardly a british phenomenon. what really tickles me is when its used to describe a climber with the BMI of your average pre-adolescent girl.
I agree, most american climbers seem to be pretty scrawny, apart from that carlo traversi, I saw him in Swiss, he was a right porker, incredible he could do anything, let alone font 8c.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: Stenno on January 17, 2013, 04:17:06 pm
I'd say this is the perfect example of how useful uncut footage can be, especially for climbers coming off the competition circuit who don't have the benefit of a season of hard outdoor sends to their name because of that time commitment. 

I don't get you. This guy has loads of witnessed and filmed quick hard ascents (e.g) (http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/guillaume-glairon-mondet-putting-face-name) to his name plus everyone has seen what a total monster he is on the comp circuit. Surely the perfect example of someone who has absolutely no need for video evidence of every hard problem he does (and he had at least one witness there too)?
 :shrug:

Sorry my point was a bit convoluted there. Mainly that a video like that was so easy to film and post online and it provides completely unchallengable evidence of his accent, as well as being thoroughly entertaining.  I wasn't familiar with his climbing outside this years competition circuit but I'm sure he is a beast as you said.
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: SA Chris on January 17, 2013, 08:54:45 pm
unchallengable evidence of his accent

Well you can definitely hear his spotter is French! :)
Title: Re: No longer taboo to ask for proof ?
Post by: grumpycrumpy on January 18, 2013, 07:55:40 am
No bullshitters have been confirmed, you can't confirm anything after the fact. Loads of people on here, the majority, thought Simpson was the real deal. A few people called him out, so to speak, loads on here were defending him to the hilt, saying stuff like I saw him do x I saw him do y I know someone who belayed him on z. Myself and a few others got a bit of flak over this. Even the marathon and the boxing didn't persuade people, only when the Brandler- hasse story came out did everyone jump on the bandwagon and say what a bullshitter he was, and take every oppurtunity to bring his name up in these cases. So I'm sorry if someone who many people who saw him over many times doing mutant stuff, cos he was in a different league strength wise, turns out to be doubted, or as a confirmed bullshitter yet someone who has been seen to do nx to nothing yet has a cult following of people who claim his stuff to be among the hardest problems in the world gets a free pass. Absolute madness is what all this reads as

Ever thought about learning English, Dense?

Makes perfect sense though .........
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