[Paul B]

Slightly confused about that link due to:

From the applied point of view, it is not clear that low-intensity resistance training with restricted flow has any advantage for healthy subjects over more conventional training with higher loads.

[Serpico]

Slightly confused about that link due to:

From the applied point of view, it is not clear that low-intensity resistance training with restricted flow has any advantage for healthy subjects over more conventional training with higher loads.

That quote refers to studies that were done to investigate the effects of ischemia (ie: applying a tourniquet) on muscle hypertrophy. It and other studies identified fatigue as a trigger for hypertrophy even in the absence of heavy loads.
The point is that whilst you shouldn't go to the extreme of applying tourniquets to restrict blood flow and induce fatigue, you should appreciate the effects of fatigue caused by conventional training on hypertrophy. Specifically for climbers isometric contractions have the same effect as a tourniquet in occluding blood flow, so if you were deadhanging for hypertrophy you'd hang for longer durations with shorter rests to induce the same sort of fatigue. There's now research that show that this model of isometric training results in significant hypertrophy.
If you're doing isotonic exercise you can introduce a similar effect by adding an isometric pause into the rep (ie: frenchies).
I also mentioned the hormonal effect but didn't post a link, here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15831061?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RR&linkpos=2&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

The bottom line is that the classic 3 sets of 6-12 reps with short rests is still a proven formula for hypertrophy. Heavy sets similar to the one on T-Nation are still important for max strength/ selective hypertrophy of fast twitch fibres. So a balanced resistance training program should include both, as part of either a linear or non-linear periodization program.

[Paul B]

Cheers, thanks for the explanation.

I'll have a read of the other link tomorrow hopefully.

10 x 3 is recommended with 45 secs rest between sets, which seems a fairly short duration so fits in with your above post as well?

[Nibile]

it says you could go up to 90-120 secs, but still a short rest for power performance. i'm very intrigued, i sent it to the guru as well. i always take long rests when pumping iron to favour the max effort. prolly not perfectly correct, i know. some advice on rests also?

[Paul B]

hmmm i'm recalling the rest from the first article I read...

If I was forced to perform one set of training parameters for the rest of my days, I’d choose the following method:

    Sets: 10
    Reps: 3
    Load: 80-85% of 1RM, or 5-6 RM (Repetition Maximum)
    Rest: 60-120 seconds between sets
    Tempo: 20X (lower weight to a count of two, no pause, lift as fast as possible)
    Exercise: Any compound movement

[Monolith]

Had this discussion out today with Dolph. I've packed on a fair bit of muscle recently through weight training in the gym but primarily from resistance training with weightbelts and sandbags.
Despite feeling a ton stronger, I do feel heavier and am a bit disconcerted by the fact my crimp seems to have diminished from when I weighed less but could lock poor holds without noticing it.

I embarked upon the weight training as a result of not possessing enough power. Now I feel much more powerful but heavy. This probably sounds nonsensical but if you can decipher what I mean, some advice as to my situation would be appreciated.

[Nibile]

you may feel heavier because coming from a power cycle, being stronger and feeling stronger you may put less attention to the foot work.

[Monolith]

I guess that would make sense since you essentially forget about your feet when on a power cycle. I mean don't get me wrong, women love stupid meatheads, and power is nothing without meatheads so it can only be a good thing. Right Lore?

[Paul B]

Had this discussion out today with Dolph. I've packed on a fair bit of muscle recently through weight training in the gym but primarily from resistance training with weightbelts and sandbags.
Despite feeling a ton stronger, I do feel heavier and am a bit disconcerted by the fact my crimp seems to have diminished from when I weighed less but could lock poor holds without noticing it.

I embarked upon the weight training as a result of not possessing enough power. Now I feel much more powerful but heavy. This probably sounds nonsensical but if you can decipher what I mean, some advice as to my situation would be appreciated.

Well if you're on any kind of supps then cut them out as you could be holding a tonne of water in just like Dobbin, although that seems to mainly be flapjack related.

Are you heavier? I mean do you know your morning post toilet trip weight pre and post weights?

I'm guessing a lot of it will be in your head and/or due to you being focussed in one direction and having neglected the crimp (a sorry state of affairs )....

[Monolith]

I need to obtain a set of scales then I guess to check this shit. I'm not on any supplements so I don't think there's a water retention issue at work. I shouldn't complain too much as I do feel a shit load stronger all round and can still pull on small holds. I think it just feels weird for now.

[Paul B]

I need to obtain a set of scales then I guess to check this shit. I'm not on any supplements so I don't think there's a water retention issue at work. I shouldn't complain too much as I do feel a shit load stronger all round and can still pull on small holds. I think it just feels weird for now.

I wouldn't advocate getting too hung up on scales mind you as your weight fluctuates a lot day to day or even hour to hour )or mine seems to), depending on everything from water intake to what I had for dinner last night, toilet breaks you know the drill.

[dobbin]

I've not climbed since thurs and obviously haven't been taking any sorts of supplements, and have immeadiately dropped from 11st6 to 11st3. Soon I will be 8st!

Anyway, I'm all psyched for the gym now!

[richdraws]

Try cutting back on the weights a little, and try one session of 5x5's on the deadlift once a week 3 times a fortnight. Do some bodyweight exercises for your shoulder girdles pressing muscles; raised feet press ups or handstand press ups or whatever you enjoy doing.
I am a big fan of deadlifts as they massively strengthen the body and can be used to add strength without bulking (low reps). It strengthens the entire body and lays a foundation for power/explosiveness. Deadlifts can also be used to bulk up (2 sets of 20 ish reps). 20 reps you say? Yes 20.
5x5 on the deadlift will be more beneficial to most. A note on progression; get some small plates if possible 0.5 kilo-1 kilo, roughly figure out your maximum deadlift for 5 repetitions. So if your maximum for 5 reps of deadlifts is 50 kilo (homme) then begin a fair bit lower at 42 kilo ish. Add weight slowly, a kilogram or 2 a week. So that within the first few weeks you are not at your max. This gives you a head of steam that will prevent you from plateau-ing too soon. So though it seems a slow process of adding 1 kilo or so at a time within 6 months you can reasonably expect your (sickly) 50k maximum to have gone up to 80k.

1 or 2 kilograms a week extra on a major exercise.

This will be a good thing. 

[slackline]

Try cutting back on the weights a little, and try one session of 5x5's on the deadlift once a week 3 times a fortnight.

   Hmm, how does that work out then, a fortnight is only two weeks 

[richdraws]

I noticed that but could not edit my post.

It should read once a week or 3 times a fortnight.

[a dense loner]

monolith, you will be heavier. you're becoming a man. nobody needs scales, just a mirror. this magnificent device tells you everything you need to know, which is why i always wear a mask when going near it

re the crimp. if you've started to beef you're probably neglecting the crimp a little. i don't think it will be anything to do with your footwork since you can't miss what you never had

[Nibile]

"and that's entertainment folks".

[Monolith]

Leona, wise words as usual. Anytime I'm feeling low, I just look through your recent post history and it brings me right back to life.

re the re crimp, I think you're probably right about neglection. re the footwork, we're drinking from the same vessel arnold.

Anyway, I've heard rings are the new climbing (especially when performed with a female companion at a certain Sheffield indoor  venue )

[richdraws]

If you do a ring routine and a girl does not see - it does not count.
Also wearing a top negates the training effect. 

[a dense loner]

wise words rich

monolith i don't know what nonsense andy's been filling you with now but i use rings on nige's board, on my own. i've done them elsewhere twice. school not included. you've no retort from me about my footwork, shocking

[Teaboy]

I couldn't decide which old thread on this topic to resurrect but the title of this one is closest to what I wanted to ask.

I've decided to address some weaknesses with some specific training rather than just fannying around at a wall. So in has come some dead hanging for fingers and now I need to address my pathetically weak arms and shoulders. Two things I want to improve are:

1. My ability to lock off on big holds, ie. climbing on steep ground
2. My ability to hang one armed from an edge, I'm told this is probably as much down to shoulder strength/stability as finger strength.

I would just do some bar work for 1. and one arm hangs for 2. but I can only manage about 10 good style pull ups so it would make for a very short session (by my third set I'm down to about 7 reps). Likewise I need so much assistance to do a one arm hang it seems pointless, I'd like to give myself a weight training boost before doing this.

I'm familiar of the low rep for strength thing and 8 - 12 reps for bulk, however, as I'm likely to injure myself doing relatively high weight I thought I'd stick to higher reps to build up a base (I doubt I'll put on much/any muscle induced weight). So my questions are:

1. Is there any value in doing 8-12 reps as a means to getting stronger or am I wasting my time? Do I have to do high weight low reps to get stronger? I'll still be climbing a couple of times a week to 'recruit' any gains. I'm particularly interested to hear from people who have tried this and have or/have not made strength gains.
2. Can someone suggest about half a dozen excercises I should do to make my arms and shoulders stronger *for climbing*.
3. Any comments on length of session, number of sets, resting duration between sets very welcome.
4. Is targeted weight training an outmoded concept, i.e. do I have to do excercises for the whole body for the arm/shoulder excercises to take effect?

[Pewtle]

2. Can someone suggest about half a dozen excercises I should do to make my arms and shoulders stronger *for climbing*.

I had the same problem after I came back from injury a few months ago.  Steepish Board-work (I use the moonboard at the boardroom, but any woody will do) really helped with power, lock off strength and yarding through moves.  I think this is way more useful and specific than weights for those goals.  That being said, I do a once a week weights session (deadlifts, kettlebell swings, shoulder presses) to try and keep my shoulders stable and strong.

I've not really answered your question, sorry!  This is just my N = 1 experience.

[Nibile]

I think that starting using a steep board in a more structured way will give you ample gains.
Climb on steep terrain without cutting loose and without dynoing: controlled movement and constant tension.
Also, use the board as a gym, you can do lock offs on good holds and lots of excercises that will give you stronger arms and shoulders without the need of lifting weights.
As far as one arming an edge, well that's a different story, involving very strong fingers and arm and shoulder.
You could try hanging one armed from a pull up bar with engaged shoulder and elbow, as if trying to start a pull up.
Check how it feels and proceed slowly.
But the result is more than the sum of the parts, one arming is quite a complex thing.

[Teaboy]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I want to do weights rather the board climbing is because I'd probably be more disciplined with a set weight routine than trying to do lock offs on a board (I'll end up just climbing or soemthig) whereas with a predefined weights routine I can switch my brain off and do it. I can also do it at a local gym and finally it's more measurable and I really need some measurable progress!

[erm, sam]

I am on a mission to increase my shoulder strength. I am not particularly focused and so far it consists of:

One arm hangs- Hanging from a jug for 5s per arm repeated a few times. I do this after finishing a problem at the wall that is steep with a jug at the top. I need to warm up for this a good while, but really notice it is really good for the shoulder blade stabilisers as well. It is easy to use the other hand to assist a tiny bit if needed.

Wide pull ups, though not so much pulling up as do a pull up, shoot one arm out to the side and transfer across so your chin is above your hand, keeping level as you do, hold then repeat back to the start position.
This does chin above hand lock off strength and latch a far off hold and stay solid type strength.

Also rows, and explosive max height, one hand off at the top pullups.

Not weights though..