[Andy Harris]

How come young kids are taking down such big numbers?

This is something that's been on my mind for a while and I've finally decided to put pen to paper and start a debate. This covers a big area so I want to limit the scope of the discussion to bouldering and specifically young guys (easy!).

The facts:
Young guys are now taking down some awfully big Nos.

Up until 5 years ago the strongest boulders were almost certainly in late 20's to late 30's.
Check out 8a. nu, particularly the American bit and the amount of guys ticking 8b & above born late 80's early 90's is huge. Interestingly in the UK it's almost a reverse.

Generally these guys are pretty skinny and not fully developed.

Back in the day Ben Bransby climbing E2 aged 10 was big news!!

Why is it so?
I don't think this can be limited to 1 or 2 things but more that it's multi-factorial. In my opinion though I'm sure some things have a greater weighting.

Most people of my age or older didn't start climbing until 18 (basically until joining uni) or maybe 16 if in the scouts.

Clearly training facilities and knowledge are much better now.

By the time they get to 18 some kids have been climbing for 15 years (eg. Sharma).

By climbing from an early age and particularly indoors you develop a sense of movement that is much more efficient & quick. eg. I tackle a  problem a  move at a time whereas I see young guys slap there way up stuff in a  kind of kartwheel motion (eg. Ondra).

Clearly there are so many more people bouldering these days that many are at the upper end of the normal distribution curve.

There is less of an issue these days of believing you could never be as good as the top guys of the time as there are so many more people there. eg. I could never be as good as Ben Moon because he's so much stronger than me.

Regular / cheap travel is now the norm and people can climb all year round.

Steep climbing is good at developing power and now found anywhere.

Comps are everywhere.


Why am I surprised at this phenomenon
Young guys are pretty much at the top in the sport which is not so in other sports (except female gymnastics).
These guys are skinny and have v.little muscle and if put in gym would have little power (even relative to there weight) vs older guys.
This is totally in contrast to 10+ years ago.


Some Q's
Is there some bias to weight in the power to weight equation you don't see in for eg. cars.
By training young do you get abnormally strong fingers so even if you have little power you can apply it.

I think that's enough. let the debate begin and maybe I'll try and summarise the ensuing feedback.

[Moo]

I think the younger generation is benefiting from years of trial and error in terms of training that has come from older generations look around now or drop a thread on an internet forum like this and info is everywhere and its all good stuff. Ten years ago how would you go about getting into training? hang out at the local wall till somone noticed you and took you under their wing maybe?

this is just one factor i think of at the moment

[travs]

Yes that is interesting Andy, but the real question which should be asked is have they reached a natural limit at an early age from which they cannot improve because body shape and muscle mass change as you get older, as with gymnasts. Or will they continue to develop and get even better and stronger. I suspect that everyone has a natural ceiling from where it is difficult to move forward without a lot of training. All these guys have done is accelarted the process of reaching this limit.

[richdraws]

It is not just the boys.
15 year old girl, Flannery training in a very focussed way. Is this type of conditioning common amongst the young US boulderers?
Do our junior teams do anything of this sort?
http://www.momentumvm.com/cms/?initVidURL=150

[AndiT]

Yeah, I see it the same way. It's the same as Gymnastics, young 'uns are light and flexible and hence make for good climbers. It's not about muscle mass, it's like comparing your average Raven Tor climber to some body builder. The body builder will be miles stronger, but the climber will be lighter and bendier.

[Johnny Brown]

Some of this stuff is dynamite Andy

I tackle a  problem a  move at a time whereas I see young guys slap there way up stuff in a  kind of kartwheel motion (eg. Ondra).

Its actually a pretty small area of the sport these youths are excelling at - steep with small holds. I think its fair to say they are not generally good all-round climbers.

Why?

Because this stuff is getting more and more body specific, just like female gymnastics. At that age you learn quick, are generally scrawny and don't get injured.

Because walls mean you can see and try hard stuff straight away. Plus its very safe, would your static steez have evolved in such an environment? Flamboyant works. Hang around regularly and you're going to get to see good climbers too.

The internet is makes it much easier to learn what the top level is, who is doing it and where to test yourself.

[Rice Boy]

Interesting question.

Whilst probably not a dominating factor I'd suggest that starting at an early age means they're building on a better postural frame compared to an 18 yr old.  This is reflected in the cartwheeling effect that I saw as representing very good core strength coupled with flexibility. 

Andy Earl climbs with a similar style, no?

[Paul B]

Its actually a pretty small area of the sport these youths are excelling at - steep with small holds. I think its fair to say they are not generally good all-round climbers.

I think that's inaccurate.

[a dense loner]

i agree with johnny on this one, something i haven't done for ages. it is a comparatively small area in which they excel, mostly overhanging on tiny holds type rock. you've been to hueco andy, you know the kind of stuff i mean. when fatboy came back from there years ago he said he was too heavy for the rock, splitting skin all the time. you compare this with tyler, who has no body mass to speak of it's just not a level playing field. the only reason i'm comparing the two is because i know them. referring to the states, most of the places i've been are just an outdoor wall, if they're not you don't see many young bucks there. i also agree with the comments on dynamic climbing, i couldn't climb dynamically if i wanted to. then there's the finger strength and body awareness issue which young climbers all seem to have in spades. plus maybe the old bendcrete walls lulled us older mob into crimping things to death, whereas now i'm not really sure that  many young climbers actually do crimp. they're just really really strong open-handed which is allegedly a good place to be.
the other thing is young climbers love the net and 8a.nearlysixteen. when we were in hueco we looked at 8a every night and laughed at the grades that people had been taking for various problems. granted we were doing smaller numbers, but it was still bitchy and funny. i'm obviously not talking about the elite here but the majority

[a dense loner]

i don't think that's inaccurate at all. how many young guys have climbed hard slabs? please don't mention lacrima, ok i'll give you luc le denmat but not many others. i know there are exceptions but these young gifted guys can't turn their hand to everything. what they excel at they do excel but that's not all types of climbing, not yet anyway

[Paul B]

Is this debate refine completely to bouldering?

I can't answer to who has climbed which slabs but I can point out that lot of climbers have proved themselves at different styles and at different venues. Ondra is the best example I can think of.
A more British example, Keen youth hasn't exactly done badly at being an all rounder.

[a dense loner]

keen youth is an old man now

[AndiT]

I like the bit on The Fanatic Search where Edu, Dani et al are watching Ondra climbing and just bitching about him. You can see they're jealous, I think we all are (well I am atleast), it's easy to say that they just have budgie claws for fingers and twig legs but when all is said and done they're also really motivated and well trained.

But yeah, they can only climb steep stuff and they'll all be crap when they find beer and girls........blah, blah...

[Adam Lincoln]

they'll all be crap when they find beer and girls........blah, blah...

Hasn't stopped master Landman yet! 

[Johnny Brown]

Is this debate refine completely to bouldering?

Judging by the OP being mainly about sport climbing, and then E2 being mentioned, I assumed it was the sport in general. When I said 'all-rounder' I didn't mean doing the odd slab problem ffs.
The Nose record has just been broken by two guys who are both old enough to be Ondra's dad.

James is a great climber but in typical peak style - bouldering and grit. I think to be an all-rounder you need to be considering bouldering, sport, trad headpointing, trad single and multi pitch onsighting, including big wall, plus some winter/ alpine pedigree.

[r-man]

Get a grip people. Andy asks why kids are cranking so hard, and the response is "yeah, well, it's only hard cranking they are good at."

 

[Paul B]

Is this debate refine completely to bouldering?

Judging by the OP being mainly about sport climbing, and then E2 being mentioned, I assumed it was the sport in general. When I said 'all-rounder' I didn't mean doing the odd slab problem ffs.

I was just pointing out Dense being wrong. Ok so they can't tick Adam's all rounder boxes (who could by the age of 20?) but I think its blinkered to think that the young guns just go around picking out 50 deg slapping crimp lines or the steepest of the steep sport lines.

I agree with R-man.

[Johnny Brown]

What I mean is I had a ten year trad apprenticeship before encountering bouldering. These guys are walking into steep, crimpy, padded playrooms aged 12. We are seeing the fruits of these facilities being available now.

[Stu Littlefair]

Adam,

I think you are right in that many of us had a more rounded introduction to climbing than these young guns, and perhaps right in a general sense about them not being all-round climbers. Some of them, especially Ondra, are exceptional all-round climbers; even at their tender age they have done hard, slabby, multi-pitch sport routes which are spicier than a lot of british "trad" climbing. In the immortal words of Winston Zeddemore - Adam has done some shit that would turn you white.

[Jaspersharpe]

I sort of agree with everyone?! 

I think that in most cases JB is spot on however, Ondra is different class and is excelling at every facet of the sport that he turns his hand to. Landman too is pretty fucking bold from what I've seen and (with the power endurance he's shown on some link up problems) I can't see him having any problems transferring his talents to other types of climbing.

To answer Andy's original point I do think that starting climbing younger makes a HUGE difference and that starting to train properly (or even just boulder all the time) from an early age makes an even bigger one.

Nobody used to do this, they do now. Hence people are climbing harder younger.

[fatboySlimfast]

 

starting to train properly (or even just boulder all the time) from an early age makes an even bigger one.

I started at 14 and I'm shit so I think the training properly thing is the key

[Johnny Brown]

But then again, didn't Jerry reckon he was the best climber in the world aged 19? And not just from the perspective of his massive ego?

[Jaspersharpe]

I started at 14 and I'm shit so I think the training properly thing is the key

14 is too old Luc but you're right.

I started at 10 but just climbed (mainly easy routes) til I was about 14 when I complimented it with messing about on an Entreprise fingerboard when I couldn't get out anywhere. I did boulder a bit and then started going to Mile End once or twice a week when I was about 16 but I never "trained". Even when I moved to Sheffield, training was just climbing on a board or at The Foundry. Nothing was structured and nobody really knew what they were doing. Everything is very different now!

But then again, didn't Jerry reckon he was the best climber in the world aged 19? And not just from the perspective of his massive ego?

However good Jerry was or thought he was at 19 he got a lot better as he got older.

[nash1]

I think if you start talking Ondra, Tyler, P Robinson, D Woods then most arguments will fail here. These guys are at the very top of the sport. But there are loads of 2nd tier whippersnappers (don't ask for names, don't have 'em) strolling 8b things all over these days, but all at Hueco, RMNP, Swizzyland. I bet a lot would struggle in the forest. That's why non of them go to Font. Not steep enough, too much technique required.

[travs]

You also have to consider that unless you are putting up new problems or routes you can only climb as hard as what is out there. Hence climbers can now have a go and aspire to problems and routes in the 8c - 9a+ range, whereas when I started climbing it was a big deal when Jerry came back and completed powerband! I do not believe I am stronger now than I was 10 years ago yet I fimrly believe I will complete Bigger Belly at 8a+/8b before the end of the year so how doeas that work? It works because I probably had the capacity to climb this problem 10 years ago but the problem did not exist then! So I revert to my original argument which is that the young climbers are only accelerating the process of reaching their natural maximum capacity beyond which it is very dificult to move forward. The only difference between Ondra and next guy is that his maximum capacity is much higher, it will be interesting to see if his capacity increases much beyond the point he has now reached or if he will indeed now start to plateau out and only go up another 2 grades or so - only time will tell.