[slackline]

Yep, I control my phone from my desktop/laptop, why would anyone do any different?

[Ged]

My latest findings, for anyone struggling to get the eccentric exercises to work for golfers:

Basically, if it ain't making your tendon a bit sore whilst doing the exercise, it ain't working.  Experiment with doing the exercises (the ecentric wrist curl and the eccentric lowering outwards) at different elbow angles. SO fully straight, a bit bent, 90 degrees and as bent as possible.  For me, doing them with my arm bent as much as possible seems to find the sweet spot.  It causes moderate pain whilst doing them, and after about a week of it I finally feel like I'm making progress with treatin g the injury, after 8 weeks of not getting anywhere.  I have been recomended to do 2-3 sets of 6-8, twice per day, every other day.  Afterwards, give it a really good massage, and ice, and also do that on the day off. BAsically really look after it to aid healing.  It will definitely feel pretty tender for a bit, but within 12 hours for me, it feels noticeably stronger. 

Usual caveat about seeking professional advice etc.

[Fiend]

Next problem. Golfer's is recurring, not badly so but enough to be worrying.

Doing the eccentric curls and rotations, with only just enough weight to cause discomfort at the injury site (12kg curls). This is now making my wrist sore and stiffen up quite a bit. I've been gently stretching and massaging it a bit but it's pretty worrying if it's preventing me from doing elbow rehab.

Help???

[Ru]

Next problem. Golfer's is recurring, not badly so but enough to be worrying.

Doing the eccentric curls and rotations, with only just enough weight to cause discomfort at the injury site (12kg curls). This is now making my wrist sore and stiffen up quite a bit. I've been gently stretching and massaging it a bit but it's pretty worrying if it's preventing me from doing elbow rehab.

Help???

Current best regime according to Julian Saunders (as of about 4 months ago):

3 x 8 reps, twice a day, day on day off, heaviest weight you can manage, should hurt whilst doing it. Also massage hard the sore bit around the bone (not directly aggravating the nerve on the epicondyle) 5-10 mins/day on the "on" days. You are trying to stimulate the tendon to heal so needs to be quite aggressive.

[mrjonathanr]

I haven't read that but I would add: annoying the actual epicondyle does not sound wise, though finding where the sore point on the tendon is (will vary, mine was in worst place, actual tip of insertion) and massaging tissue up and around might be good. Maybe worth considering that a tight muscle+ tendon is placing tension on the injured site so massage to relax the muscle body might be worth a punt.

What fixed mine (after 18 miserable months) Fiend was this:
Give up climbing for a few months as nothing worked. Resume again at utterly trivial level. Build back up to normal incrementally over 2/3 months.

I also did eccentrics with heavy weights. I did 2x 25 reps at whatever kilos were knackering
Tom Randall's stretch, making sure to be stretching up with head&torso and legs at the same time, so spine quite arched, quite a powerful stretch.

One question. There are two forms of the eccentric loading. Do you know which one to do for you?  Your condition can change over time- mine did.

[Fiend]

Eccentrics worked for me before, along with other stuff.

The problem is that now the eccentrics are aggravating and stiffening my wrist - any ideas / suggestions??

[mrjonathanr]

Play around with the protocol to protect your wrist, there is no set miracle package. And do some counter exercises/stretches for wrists

[skelf]

eccentrics, straight arm stretching (palms facing out push back of hands into hips and fingers to floor with shoulders back). Also I've heard folk banging on about bromelain supplements in order to speed up tendon healing. I've dabbled but don't know if my improvement was down to the first two, or just time, or it was some mad pinapple voodoo ?

[Fiend]

Play around with the protocol to protect your wrist, there is no set miracle package. And do some counter exercises/stretches for wrists

I'm not really sure how to do that?? The current weights seem only just enough to stimulate the elbow tendon, and I'm doing them with a fairly standard position and fairly standard ROM from what I've seen. I'm pretty sure my wrist has to move back down from the inner forearm for ecc curls and rotate out as far as possible for ecc rotators and that's what aggravates it - specific ideas to avoid that would be welcome!

I am doing stretches and massage for the wrist now, I'm not sure what counter exercises to do though??

[BicepsMou]

Had recurrent trouble with golfers’ over the last years. Eccentrics worked for me to a certain extent, but did not provide durable relief. As soon as I restarted to do lock-off and compression exercises the trouble started again.
And yes, I’m aware those are known to be hard on the elbows. But still fun to train. Wisdom is not always a question of age 

Eight weeks back, I came across this link in the ‘tight forearm’ thread (thanks jfdm!):
 

As the static forearm stretches I tried before did not really seem to work for me, I followed this ‘pulsing’ advice and wrist prep sequence from the GMB guys for the last weeks and especially the elbow rotations working the pronator (2’33’’) felt as if they really hit the right spot. Overly tight pronators are one of the many possible causes of golfers’, so this is obviously the issue for me.

Four to six weeks later my elbows were completely painfree and even after starting to do lock-off / compression exercises again (while religiously maintaining the wrist prep work before and after), my elbows still feel good.

Also nice: They can be done almost anywhere, even at a desk and are really quick too. Easy to incorporate in routine and to make a habit out of it.

Hth

[tomtom]

I found this really helped...

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,27038.msg521884.html#msg521884

[Fiend]

Back once again with the renegade elbow.

Been doing the usual theraputic bollox ofc.

Also I've tried eccentric lat pulldowns using one of those double rung type things as a theraputic exercise. Pull it down with both arms, favouring the uninjured left, let it go slowly back up using the injured right. Quite sore for the first half of the movement, eases right off towards full extension. I can see my forearm muscle visibly stretching out a lot which makes me think it might do the recommended "load the tendon under extension" shizzle.

Thoughts??

Edited for clarity - I'm wondering about the eccentric pulldowns as rehab.

[kac]

I assume golfers.  I was plagued for years and that sounds like just the sort of thing that agrivated it! Been pain free for a few years now and key was buying some cheap paralettes and doing various things with those. I suspect I had weak wrists and shoulder girdle and static holds helped with that. I found anything that aggrivated it a bad idea although worst thing was doing nothing so keep trying different things and good luck!

[JJP]

I used to get loads of bother with this in the early 2000s as well but been ok for years.  Occasionally get slight niggle coming back but I find the usual stuff seems to sort it in a week or so.  Realise this isnt that helpful as you have already done this.  Have you made sure you get the level of "aggravation" right when doing the standard eccentrics - think it is in Macleods book and some tendinopathy discussion he linked a few years ago.

[SA Chris]

loads of stretching and even a massage to release pressure before starting rehab exercising was essential for me. These days I keep on top of golfers and tennis with a foam roller to keep tightness away.

[tomtom]

For TE antagonistic exercises ive found a theraband much better than using a dumbbell/weight. As in it seems to have a greater effect.

[mrjonathanr]

Back once again with the renegade elbow

Thoughts ?

If you are really bothered about fixing this, you’ll go to see a good physio. Someone who will diagnose your injury, rather than tell you what helps theirs.

[Fiend]

Okay, I guess my recent post was a bit casual and not well written to ask the question I have.

I have a golfer's elbow flare up in my right arm. From having chronic golfer's elbow in my left arm for several years, I know what it is. From having managed, alleviated and reduced that left arm golfer's elbow to an uninhibitive state (it's actual complete disappearance coincided with a couple of reflexology sessions which is quite possibly an entirely different discussion), I know what usual protocols (warming up well, taping during climbing, press-ups after climbing, regular eccentric wrist curls and rotations, ice if needed, massaging the tendon-muscle join and lower muscle belly, stretching) work for me.

The question is: would the exercise I described (eccentric pull-downs) work as a rehab exercise along the same principles as eccentric wrist curls etc (loading the tendon as it's extending)?? The discomfort and clear extension indicate so, but if anyone is aware of either any dangers (other than the obvious "don't overdue it") or counter-arguments ("this won't work compared to eccentric wrist curls because of xyx") then I'd appreciate them.

[Fultonius]

I'm trying to picture the eccentric pull downs, but it sounds like it wouldn't quite hit the right muscles, but if you're getting the "familiar pain, easing with reps" then it might be doing the trick?

Would seem like it would not be doing the right thing as there's very little wrist flexion (so it's almost an isometric exercise). that said....isometric & high loading = good tendon loading and minimal "aggravation", so you might be on to something.

How recently did you get the onset of issues?

When I got tennis elbow in my right arm, it took moths, but when I figured out what worked for me I was good in 2-3 weeks. I then got it in my left and thought "great, I know exactly what to do", but that was a fresh inury, and the high intensity/low reps routine made it worse, but light weights and more reps seemed to help (tendinosis/tendinitis innit),

[mrjonathanr]

Okay, I guess my recent post was a bit casual and not well written to ask the question I have.

I have a golfer's elbow flare up in my right arm. From having chronic golfer's elbow in my left arm for several years, I know what it is.

Sorry if my response seemed abrupt, but as someone who is frequently injured, I am quite averse to wasting any further time barking up the wrong tree or persisting with ineffective solutions. I’d rather be climbing.

Is it FCU or pronator teres which is giving you grief?

[Fiend]

@Fultonius - I see what you mean about the lack of wrist flexion. I'm 3 weeks into it. Have been doing eccentrics for the last 2 weeks, although I'm struggling to get enough loading to provoke discomfort in the tendon area.

@MRJR - a bit of both I think. Feels more like PT in the tests but more like FCU in general usage and level of aggravation with non-wrist-rotating movements.

[mrjonathanr]

You need to find out what to target because those injuries demand different protocols. I appreciate physio fees hit the budget pretty hard but my logic is they save a lot of time by speeding recovery. Money    time.

Good luck with it whatever you decide.

[Fiend]

Well.....if you can recommend me a reliable, climbing-knowledgeable Manc physio, I can give it a try....

[mrjonathanr]

Well I usually schlep across to Sheffield to see Jon Ostrovskis. He’s great, sees a lot of climbers. He does Zoom consults too https://www.919clinic.co.uk/
 
I know some of our Olympic team come over from Sheffield to see Jeff Ross at Wilmslow Total Fitness down the A34. Jeff is excellent- all his physios are, esp Steve Renshaw (previously at LFC under Klopp). Have seen both but prices are... not trivial.

https://www.harrisandross.co.uk/our-clinics/wilmslow-physiotherapy/

Jon O is good.

[Fiend]

I used to see Ozzy all the time when I lived in Sheff so a lot of my understanding of injury treatment comes from him, along with some from this forum and a bit from DMac.... Probably cheaper including diesel than the Total Fitness team