[Bonjoy]

I don’t have any particular reason for doing my list, but I still want it to be as on-the-money as possible. I’ve tweaked a fair few grades. I don’t think this has included roughly as many up and down grades. The elusive aim as ever is to try and make the list as internally consistent as possible. I'm trying to straighten up the goalposts rather than moving them.
As to whether these grades match font grades in Font, who knows. It’s my view that font grades in Font are all over the place anyway, so this goal is inherently pretty unachievable.
One of my ideas behind the list is to draw out opinions on stuff (grades, quality, rules on eliminates) and hence reach some consensus, which might then be useful to future guide writers or whatever. Here’s a selection of proposed grade alterations, including the most contentious ones. Opinions please.



UP

Dissolution – 7b+
The Green Man – 7c
Westwood – 8a
eatswood Traverse – 7c
Superboc – 8a+
Sidetrack - 7a+
Tracking (no crack for feet near end) – 7b+(7c)
Tracking into Trackside – 7c+
Electrical Storm – 7b
Slopey Traverse, block right of Knock – 7b+
Blind Fury – 7c+
Hamper’s Hang – 7a+
Back In The YMCA – 7b+
**H Top – 7b
Opposition – 7c
The Beast – 7b+

Teetering

Brad Pit – 7c/7c+
Dick Williams – 7b/7b+


Down

Hats For Weasels – 7b+
8ball – 8a+
Heartland – 7b+
Flatworld LH – 7b
Early Doors – 7a
Rambeau (jump start) – 7b(7a+)
Slingshot – 7c+
Nigel’s Prob – 7a
Desparete – 7b
The Rib – 7b
Blind Drunk (reach past sequence) – 7c+ (7c)
The Terrace – 7c
La Terrace – 7c+
Giza – 7b+
Westworld (static sequence) – 7c+(8a)


<Runs off and hides in bunker>

[Shy Ted]

agree with most things bar early doors which i reckon is 7a+ and brad pit which i reckon is 7c+ (cos i still ain't done it yet).  apart from that, spot on in my books 

[cofe]

early doors 7a+
the rib 7b+
i'd downgrade zaf's problem before dick williams. 7b tops. agree DW is borderline.
two grades for rambeau is bollocks. it's 7b
suavito 7b
fact hunt 7a+

[dave]

i thought rambeau was fair at 7b.

what is "Blind Drunk (reach past sequence)"?

early doors at 7a is idiotic - where does that put GW, at 6b+?

DW is 7b or low-end 7b+, but zafs is harder than this, and a lot more conditioney.

[Bonjoy]

early doors 7a+
the rib 7b+
i'd downgrade zaf's problem before dick williams. 7b tops. agree DW is borderline.
two grades for rambeau is bollocks. it's 7b
suavito 7b
fact hunt 7a+

Have already got Sauvito at 7b

So you think 7b either way for Rambeau? If it's the same grade either way, i'll remove the bracketed comment and grade.

[Johnny Brown]

Its worth noting that for early ascents of Dick Williams the small pocket crimp for the right hand wasn't there. You had to use a very poor sidepull/ pinch to the right. Seeing as everyone now bones this hold throughout the hard bit there's no wonder its got easier.

Rambeau is definitely 7a+ if you're jump starting.

I think Desparete and The Rib are fine as bottom end 7b+.

Has anyone actually done La Terrace to downgrade it? Other option is not to include it, its pretty rare behaviour.

[Houdini]

WSS up to 8A+ please.

[Somebody's Fool]

I don't think Green Man warrants an upgrade.  Obviously Nige, you or I didn't manage it, but it still didn't feel like a c.

[r-man]

Early Doors solid 7a+ for me
Rambeau (with the jump start) 7b
Dick Williams low 7b+ but still worth the grade. I find Zaf's harder (haven't done it) but my hips don't bend that way.
Suavito probably 7b, but I always thought it had a highball grade, like Alliance. The fear adds to the difficulty anyway, so I reckon you deserve the +.

What about Classic Arete at B. South? 7a rather than 7a+

[Johnny Brown]

Suavito probably 7b, but I always thought it had a highball grade, like Alliance. The fear adds to the difficulty anyway, so I reckon you deserve the +.

I had thought of adding something along these lines. Are we having highball grades? If not, how possible is it to differentiate real difficulty and perceived difficulty without toproping?

Rambeau only earns 7b if you start properly. 7a+ with jump.

[Bonjoy]

Teetering
Dick Williams – 7b/7b+

DW is 7b or low-end 7b+

That clears that one up then

Blind Drunk can be done by reaching the break off the submergence lip holds if you have long arms.

If folk agree The Terrace is 7c (do they? I think they do), then La Terrace must be 7c+. Ru and Stu have both done it I think.

As long as folk are agreed that The Rib and Desparete are harder than top of the grade 7b stuff like Captain Hook, Andle Stone Wall, Buckstone Dyno, Happy Campus, then they are best kept at 7b+. It's all very borderline. Do people think this?
 I'm putting an (!) after highballs, which gives fair warning. In theory the grade shouldn't reflect the height per se. In borderline cases it's hard to seperate real and percieved difficulty when you are shitting your pants.

[dave]

i feer that despite repeating the rambeau line ad infinitum that johnny standstart is in the vocal minority here. i never heard anyone who i've tried/done it with say it was 7a+, despite all of them being able to read 7a+ and harder the riot act regularly.

someone remind me what green man is. I don't want to have to walk to waterstones on my lunch to read the guide.

[Bonjoy]

What about Classic Arete at B. South? 7a rather than 7a+

It's graded for staying turning the arete very low, which is fair at 7a+ I think. I think some folk do easier variants.

[Rocketman Rob Smith]

eatswood Traverse is defo 7c, did this recently and felt every bit of 7c. hasn't a hold come off since it was originally done, thats what I heard anyway.

Johnny's right about Dick williams as well, its a lot easier now than it used to be. Maybe bottom end 7b+
I would also agree that the rib is still 7B+ if bottom of the grade.

Zaff's is prob 7b.

[Johnny Brown]

Dave , The Green Man is on an isolated boulder on stanton moor, an arete right of a chipped plaque. I have done it but can't comment on the grade other than 7b+/7c.

Have all these folk bleating about Rambeau being hard actually done it properly? Or have they jump started and don't want their grade taking away after so hastily ticking it?

[Bonjoy]

Dave - Green Man is on the furthest boulder at Stanton Moor. Welford thing. Have tried it loads to no avail. Getting foot over the lip is hard.
Harder than low end 7c stuff like Mossatrocity, Zorev, Domes SS, Brass Monkeys, Zaf Scotchlas IMO

[dave]

Blind Drunk can be done by reaching the break off the submergence lip holds if you have long arms.

I think i nearly did this many years ago after a few half assed goes (before having done submergence, and possibly blind date), the main problem being i didn't want to risk catching the slot as a mono. At the time i was thinking closer to 7a+. I think this would be better listed as a problem with a name that doesn't contain "blind drunk", to make it clear that blind drunk is a strict eliminate, and this isn't just a different sequence, its a different problem and much easier proposition. probably a perfectly decent sitter to remergence if you can reach through.

yep, 2 holds have broke on eatswood. one big one at the crux is the main change, and the last good hold before turning the arete at the end got a lot worse.

[Johnny Brown]

Harder than low end 7c stuff like Mossatrocity, Zorev, Domes SS, Brass Monkeys, Zaf Scotchlas IMO

Hmm, having done all those I wouldn't say it was harder than any of them. I certainly found Zorev and Brass monkeys much harder. Mossatrocity and Zaff Sczcz are rather different in style and hard to compare.

[Bonjoy]

If you were being chased by a tiger which would you use as an escape route?

[Bonjoy]

 My line of thinking on Green Man goes thus. I have been there with JB, Nige, Si, Keith, Mawson, Cofe and Kim T. I have only seen it done by Adam and Mawson. If this team all turned up at the bottom of Brass Monkeys, how many ascents would I witness? More than two I'd guess.

[Ru]

I agree with most of those, but here are some suggestions/comments:

Brad Pit was 7c for a long time in the last script before being upgraded before print.

If **HTop is 7b, Danny's might be 7c+?

La Terrace is weird. Firstly, as JB says, it's pretty shit in a way, the result of going back to buttresses to spot people on problems that I'd already done. Secondly, Stu thinks the Terrace is about 7b, but still thought La Terrace was 8a.

I did a very low start to Hats for Weasels from the very back of the roof which adds a nice move and might bump the grade a notch.

Westwood - I think this was 8a originally, however, hasn't the left hand starting crimp snapped? Not been back to eatswood since then so I'm not sure how this affects it.

Has anyone repeated Turbo at the Roaches? I think Simpson repeated it yonks ago and said 7c - I'm not sure what that means. I had little real idea of the grade at the time, but with more experience it's about the same difficulty, if not a bit harder perhaps, than the Clown, 8a, in font, with a similar move.

What about the Sit Start to Help the Young going up to 8a?

The reason that the 'reach past' version of Blind Drunk was described as such, is that Blind Drunk only became an eliminate after the easy method was found. I don't think it was conceived as such.

[dave]

If this team all turned up at the bottom of Brass Monkeys, how many ascents would I witness? More than two I'd guess.

granted, but probably not an integer number if cofe's got owt to do with it.

[Johnny Brown]

If you were being chased by a tiger which would you use as an escape route?

Right now? Mossatrocity. But that's cos I've done it 3 times in the last fortnight. But it took me more than one visit. Brass Monkeys took many, Zaff sczcz a couple, Domes I forget. Zorev I think is one of the hardest things I've done. Green Man took me ten minutes. Horses for courses etc.

Brad Pit was 7c for a long time in the last script before being upgraded before print.

The consensus is its borderline. Either make it the easiest 7c+ or the hardest 7c.

La Terrace is weird. Firstly, as JB says, it's pretty shit in a way, the result of going back to buttresses to spot people on problems that I'd already done. Secondly, Stu thinks the Terrace is about 7b, but still thought La Terrace was 8a.

Having been in this situation myself, I have played on it, hence why I questioned the downgrade. I think the link is more than a grade harder than the terrace, but I'm not sure it should go in other than a footnote.

[cofe]

I'm putting an (!) after highballs,

good call. works in font.

[Bonjoy]

I agree with most of those, but here are some suggestions/comments:

Brad Pit was 7c for a long time in the last script before being upgraded before print.

If **HTop is 7b, Danny's might be 7c+?

La Terrace is weird. Firstly, as JB says, it's pretty shit in a way, the result of going back to buttresses to spot people on problems that I'd already done. Secondly, Stu thinks the Terrace is about 7b, but still thought La Terrace was 8a.

I did a very low start to Hats for Weasels from the very back of the rook which adds a nice move and might bump the grade a notch.

Westwood - I think this was 8a originally, however, hasn't the left hand starting crimp snapped? Not been back to eatswood since then so I'm not sure how this affects it.

Has anyone repeated Turbo at the Roaches? I think Simpson repeated it yonks ago and said 7c - I'm not sure what that means. I had little real idea of the grade at the time, but with more experience it's about the same difficulty, if not a bit harder perhaps, than the Clown, 8a, in font, with a similar move.

What about the Sit Start to Help the Young going up to 8a?

The reason that the 'reach past' version of Blind Drunk was described as such, is that Blind Drunk only became an eliminate after the easy method was found. I don't think it was conceived as such.

I think many would not argue with Danny's at 7c+
 Didn't James give Westwood 7c+? I don't think the broken hold adds much difficulty.
 Strictly speaking the Roaches is not one of the eastern edges.
 Help The Young SS sans block is listed as 8a and given a fat star. With block it gets 7c+ and a thin star
 How hard for Hat's For Weasels low start, 7c?