[clm]

apples...oranges???

[fatdoc]

err....

ahem

" as I crumbled some more chalk into my already overfilled chalkbag I cast my eyes speculatively upward..."

Ron fawcett, in climber and rambler... in if i remember correctly the FIRST asc  article of masters edge, not Jerry - jerry named it as the 1st to climb it "would trult be the master"

I await to be ridiculed by the historians

[Falling Down]

Wall... Edge... Cloggy... Millstone... 

[a dense loner]

on the wine after work was we fatdoc

[fatdoc]

er..

no!!!

I'm still pretty sure (cos I cannt be arsed to re-read the whole thread again...) that there are references on here to masters edge being climbed by jerry 1st... soz if that's not the case, the quote from Ron is truly mint however and should make up for any historical inaccurarcies I may have made.

as regards my spelling, yeah sorry, it's shite 

[Johnny Brown]

in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint.

I take it you mean this. Read it again, more carefully this time.

The quote from Fawcett on Rock bears repeating at this juncture:

Extensive practice on a rope enabled Moffatt to climb it without top-rope tension and pronounce it possible. He then declared his intention of returning to make the first ascent when the good weather came, and proclaimed that whoever led it on sight would have to be The Master. When he climbed it, therefore, he would name it The Master's Edge.

Meanwhile, whilst Moffatt strutted about waiting for spring, Ron nipped it and climbed it without pre-practice, only one fall, and serving an ironic twist to Moffat's route name.

[Falling Down]

I'm still pretty sure (cos I cannt be arsed to re-read the whole thread again...) that there are references on here to masters edge being climbed by jerry 1st...

Maybe read the thread again... Wall... Edge....  Cloggy.... Millstone...

Brilliant thread BTW especially now Ron's got dragged into it too.  Andi - where did your girlfriend rate Fawcett on the fitness scale?

[AndiT]

A straightforward 'No'. The top three she produced, were the only three she liked, although an ex of mine did like the picture of Ron climbing Breadline in 'Rock Stars', so I dumped her.

On a completely different tangent, have any of you seen the robotic arm of Radtke on Page 360 of Yorkshire Gritstone. This was pointed out to me the other day. I really want one, I think it'll help on those bunters.

[Pantontino]

in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint.

Meanwhile, whilst Moffatt strutted about waiting for spring, Ron nipped it and climbed it without pre-practice, only one fall, and serving an ironic twist to Moffat's route name.

So JB, just so we're all clear here, are you absolutely sure that Ron didn't ab down Master's Edge before he did it? It's just that I feel like I'm straining to see through that muddy water again...

 

(best thread in ages, by the way)

[Teaboy]

It may also be worth pointing out that JM was planning to solo Masters Edge as he was ignorant of the protection possibiliites.

What's that saying about history being written by the victorious?

[AndiT]

This is what I've got from one source on the interenet: Moffat said about Fawcett's Master's Edge that "anyone who could do this climb without abseiling down it first, or practising it on a top rope, would be a true master."

Although I'm sure I've read in the original ascent right up that he said "whoever on-sight solo's this route would be a true master". I'm pretty sure it's in Climber & Rambler November 1983, where he says all this stuff first. I haven't got time to find it right now, but will have a look later. It has a pic of jerry with his chest puffed up looking very proud of himself. It's in his right up about the Master's Wall first ascent.

Although it's all bravado and a great read and perhaps a sponsors dream, I have always taken it a slightly different way. I've seen it as Jerry admitting 'I've practiced these routes, I'm not that great, it'd take a true master to do these routes on sight' as opposed to 'I want to/have climbed these routes, I am a true Master'.

[Jaspersharpe]

Spot on Andi as I remember it.........

1. Jerry definitely said that only a true master could solo it on-sight.

2. By definition this means he was admitting he was NOT the true master as he had already been practising it.

Although not well known for his modesty you can't dis Jerry for this one.

[grimer]

Jerry told me once as when I was prostrate at his feet and muttering invocations to lime green lycra that he had hung out a lot with John Bachar just before this, and Bachar was into this idea of The Master, as some sort of zen-like being who had total control over his fear, and that's what The Master of this was. Also, he had got from Bachar a funny ethic that if you demeaned a route by top-roping it beforehand, you were then only allowed to solo it, you weren't allowed to lead it.

Also, I think you run a bit a risk by taking the puffed-up comments from what was obviously a much more tongue-in-cheek era, as historical detail. I bet Ron and Jerry and Redhead all really enjoyed winding each other up.

And I also wonder if Master's Wall wasn't a name that that piece of rock acquired before the ascent. I mean, The Tormented Ejaculation is a much modester name for mans' efforts.

[dave]

Also, he had got from Bachar a funny ethic that if you demeaned a route by top-roping it beforehand, you were then only allowed to solo it, you weren't allowed to lead it.

I've also heard of this ethic. I recon it could be interesting applied to the grit. It would certainly lessen the trade-route traffic on stuff like EOTA, parthian, gaia etc!

[andy popp]

The last two guides to Millstone both state that Ron 'reportedly' practiced the moves but didn't do it in a oner - this was always my understanding, I think from a piece Ron wrote at the time describing the winter over which he did ME, Mint 400, Neon Dust, One Step Beyond Direct Start (which, remember, he did clipped into a long sling on the wire in the mid height slot) and others in one of his periodic comebacks. Frankly it would be out of Ron's (and everyone elses') normal style at the time for him to have done this ground-up. Besides, if he did why have subsequent claims for first ground-up (Basher)/OS ascents been broadly accepted? OTE 20 has a great article by Basher about his ascent. I had the pleasure of watching Mark Leach make the second ascent. This was definitely practiced.

[fatdoc]

good to see I've clarified the ME issue, not.

I too see JMs comments on the master being those of *I'm not THE master, one day someone will be*

I've not got my  mid 80s climbing mags anymore.... but childlike long term memory often serves me well - I recollect RF having  said he abbed the line of ME and tried some moves on the rope.

Best thread of the year BTW

(except FOOD glorious FOOD, of course  )

[Jim]

much more tongue-in-cheek era, as historical detail. I bet Ron and Jerry and Redhead all really enjoyed winding each other up.

It'd be dynamite If they had the internet back in them days and they were all posting on a forum bragging about this or that and we could read what was been said now. pipe dreams

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves. Fawcett on Rock just says vaguely; 'Ron went to millstone to inspect Moffat's unled line.'

[Nigel]

I reckon Ron practiced it. There's no evidence for it, but it is scientific fact. Plus its about as vague as Luke Skywalker saying he ground-upped it. Lets face it no-one knows, fewer people care, the fact remains that none of these men come close to the DARKLORD.

[cofe]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves.

is that like not inhaling

[andy popp]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ron abbed down Master's Edge, but didn't practise any moves.

is that like not inhaling

Or the niceties of how you define sexual relations. Just how likely is it?

[Pantontino]

Ah, the murky water is clearing, we are beginning to see what really happened, JB didn't actually mean 'ground up' when he said 'ground up'.

Better now, yes.

I look forward to more truth revealing inquisitions.

How about Fawcett not really climbing Zoolook? At least not in the conventional/modern sense of a one push/no falls ascent. The word at the crag when I was a frequent habitue of the Malham-Kilnsey-Gordale axis of steep whiteness was that (allegedly) big Ron had fallen off on the upper section, then lowered back to the big undercuts, and then pulled on and climbed from there to the top. It seems that in 1985 the redpoint ethic was not set in concrete. This could of course just have been malicious gossip, but I'd be curious to know if any of you old gits heard something similar on your travels.

[grimer]

Maybe you're right Simon, that nowadays redpointing is such an airtight box. Maybe at any given time in history, if you get away with the claim, than you've done it. Read the Stoney bit of Extreme Rock. There's a bit wher the guy comes acrodd come people trying, I think, Kellogg. Someone had lowered off from above the crux, so the 'First Ascensionist' tied on and led to to top with the ropes still clipped. His name's in the book.

[webbo]

having witnessed the first free ascent of cream team special,that girdle affair on raven tor.such tactics were used as getting your mate to aid across then lower off leaving the gear in place for ron.falling off then resting on the end of the rope before climbing back up and starting where you left off.also one or two shiney footholds appeared to be used where the exsisting at that time aid routes crosed the girdle.
as for masters edge with no moves practised about as likely as livesey not chipping downhill racer.

a mate of mine witnessed rons and liveseys first attempt to free cave route at gordale.various dodgy tactics were used by livesey which included jumping for a bloke aiding up the route next door.having reached a high point 2thirds of the way up.he then lowered off and ron was then pulled up to the high point.he then climbed to the top with2 more points of aid and it was claimed with 3 points of aid.
there for a 60 foot pulley system only counts as a single aid point.
he wasn't always st ron.

[grimer]

I always really enjoyed the cheeky Livesy stuff. He really seemed to me to be somebody who got the joke. Not sure Ron got it, but I just have visions of a cheeky twinkle in Pete's eye as he gets to work on Downhill Racer, having a little sn**ger to himself.

Another thing. You often here shit about various climbers, but it stands out thatI have never heard anyone ever, saying anything that ever took anything away from Joe Brown, John Allen and Johnny. I bet that says something about climbers like them.