[Sloper]

As a dyed in the wool Tory I'd be overjoyed to see Gordon Brown as the next PM but what do the poor misguided fools  who have historically supported Labour think of GB?

Would you still vote for a Labour party that promises to bring in ID cards, has privatised significant parts of the NHS, introduced tuition and top up fees etc?

Just curious.

[Bonjoy]

No. I vote Green these days.
I wholey expect the Tories to win the next election and continue with the Blair agenda, eroding civil liberties, increased public surveilance, less government accountability, more laws, more crimes invented, more prisons to cope with the new crimes, more pointless foreign conflict, mismanaged public services, etc. Democracy in this country is a joke, both main parties are the same and the status quo is protected by Rupert Murdoch.
 Brown or Cameron, I can honestly say the outcome seems the same to me either way.

[BenF]

Unfortunately, I feel pretty much exactly the same as Bonjoy.  Not that I don't want to hold the same views as Bonjoy, I'd just rather our political system and the current party political situation were significantly different.  I used to vote Labour and I now feel very let down.

[Paz]

I don't really give a toss.  Maybe a laissez faire care taker (coalition) government who just not fuck things up as bad as they were pre 1997 would be nice.  I'm more bothered about who's going to be the next Chancellor, though how much of the last decade of economic stability was down to the Bank of England - is it now another unfuckupable situation?  I don't get this big drive to build more hospitals.  I fucking hate hospitals.  I suppose most people would like to see less wars in future, but I think we (The World) should be sorting out Darfur and Zimbabwe (though I was heartened to learn that under their gazillion percent inflation, the citizens have been feeding themselves by growing their own vegetables (on land given to them by Mugabe from white farmer's?)). 

[andy popp]

Frankly, I think the 'they're just the same' argument is wrong, lazy and dangerous - unless you actually want the Tories back in  (but then if they are the same it doesn't matter does it. Double check you really believe that last part). In part this view depends on an idealized hypothetical last ten years where Labour didn't win and everything was better (though in reality there has been much very good about the last ten years: minimum wage, new deal, sure start, gay and women's rights, employment rights, debt relief, strong economy, Northern Ireland to name just a few). It doesn't exist, the alternative was the Tories winning again. Would that have been better? And be sure, on Iraq, which is truly shameful, the Tories would just have surely followed Bush in as Blair did. It also depends on a mistaken view of the future. Brown is to the left of Blair and his own public image but much more importantly, Cameron is far far to the right of his public image, witness his appalling voting record on many things that many of us probably care about, such as social inclusion and the redistribution of wealth. Think the last ten years were bad, what till the Tories get back in, you won't have seen anything like it.

[Dr T]

for my tuppence worth I've meet Cameron and he is without doubt the most obnoxious dislikeable person I've ever been in the same room as, and he's a  IMHO, if you thought Blair was style over substance well Cameron is style disguising substance, v right wing substance (so I'm w andy p on that one)
It's a sad state of affairs but my view on politics is I'll vote for pretty much anyone so long as my vote helps keep the Torys out (except the BNP of course-and UKIP which is pretty much the BNP for people who live in the home counties and drive sports 4x4's)

[Bonjoy]

Frankly, I think the 'they're just the same' argument is wrong, lazy and dangerous ....

Bollox! What's lazy and dangerous is always voting for the big two and not thinking outside the box. The reason we are stuck with two party politics is because people apply the logic of voting for the least worst of the big two rather than voting for whichever party they actually think has the best policies. If people started doing this democracy would actually work and parties would be compelled to do what people want.

[Sloper]

Bonjoy you're right, simply voting on 'tribal' lines is the act of a fool.

So Andy p what are your feelings on the following:

The PFI?
Part privatisation of the tube?
Bringing back the market into the NHS?
Privatisation of the Air traffic control system, defence research agency etc?
Tuition fees, top up fees?
ID cards, detention without charge, control orders, civil asset recover on the balance of probability?
Reform to the judicial system that even rabid old right wing judges (yep there's a few of those about)  describe as dangerous and illiberal
The decline in social mobility?

Just tell me how you would have reacted to these changes had they been implemented by a Tory government?

Yes I vote Tory, but this doesn't mean to say that i can't be a critical judge of their policies and politics,  thinks like Clause 28 were a disgrace but between Clause 28 (which when enacted was never even used) and this governments disgusting attack on refugees and asylum seekers I think that the Labour government is not in the best place to claim the moral high ground.

[Andy B]

I agree with Andy. I remember my heart sinking every single time I heard about new legislation by the tories when they were in power, but although Labour, under Blair, has done some pretty bad things, many pieces of legislation that have been passed in the last ten years, alot of which didn't neccessarily grab the headlines, were, in my opinion, really positive changes and genuine attempts at improving social justice in Britain. In the recent local elections I voted Green, as their policies are, at present, probably closest to my own values, and I thought they had a decent chance of being elected in our ward, but in the national elections it is unfortunately a two horse race, and I would much rather Labour got re-elected than the tories got in again. I understand that this view undermines true democracy and is a negative way of voting, but I feel that it is more important to me to do what I can to stop the tories regaining power, than supporting the growth of minority parties.

[Paz]

My reaction is indifference, mostly on grounds of ignorance. 

Does anyone else secretly take into account where the candidates live when voting  -  like if they're not from the actual constituency, or from the posh part of town (Tories in particular).  Mostly this is a source of childish amusement, but our Green Councillor lived on the same road as the polling station.  Last year he got ahead of labour by 7 votes, this year The Green, (who actually was called Ms Green) lost by 6 votes to labour.  That's as exciting as it gets. 

[Sloper]

I agree with Andy. many pieces of legislation that have been passed in the last ten years, alot of which didn't neccessarily grab the headlines, were, in my opinion, really positive changes and genuine attempts at improving social justice in Britain.

Really?

Which ones?

I can think of the civil partnerships act and frankly that's about it.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foi/story/0,,2077592,00.html

Disgraceful

[GraemeA]

Minimum wage

Human Rights Legislation (ok often abused but would the Tories have ever brought it in)

VAT reduction on domestic fuel

[Andy B]

I suspect that my view of what constitutes a positive change in society is radically different to yours Sloper.

I have just remembered your record of political trolling on UKClimbing.

[Paz]

They've banned or will ban smoking in enclosed public places (including cigars), increased tax for higher earners (presumably), and seen wine prices in France.  I can understand your problem with them now. 

They've brought in the CROW, (and The Crow was recleaned).

And they're going to slaughter the sacred Cow of some welsh hindu's because it's got TB

Out of interest only ;-) who do I have to vote for to increase JSA?

[Simon S]

Sloper, I think that you forgot to mention the horrendous raid on pensions funds that Labour has made. Daylight robbery, and hardly the way to promote selfsuffiency in old age is it. IMO for what its worth, the economy has done well in spite of GBs intervention rather than because of it. The sustained economic growth was initiated by the tories remember.

Gordon Brown will make a great prime minister.......for the Conservatives!

[andy popp]

First I didn't say anything about how I have or will vote. I have voted several different ways, including Labour but also Green, in different contexts. I don't vote 'tribally' and certainly carry no brief for either Labour or Blair. My simple point was that in the rush to damn Blair we should not forget the many positive things that have been achieved in the last ten years without denying the negative, and I stand by that. I do believe things would have been much worse if the Tories had stayed in power and will be if they get back in.

Bonjoy, my opening sentence was perhaps intemperate; instead that attitude is lazy when, as is often the case, it is used as an excuse not to vote and not to engage in any way. Clearly no one can accuse you of that. But I do still believe the 'no difference' argument is wrong. Cameron would be very anti-progressive. Much of the rest of your reply is in effect about the iniquitous effects of our current electoral system - this is by far the biggest cause of the dominance of the big two. I agree with you but your vision of participatory democracy, however desirable, is not possible under the current system. I was talking about the current context. Of course that doesn't preclude trying to change that system.

Sloper, you very quickly side with Bonjoy and describe anyone who votes tribally as a 'fool' and yet in your original post you described yourself as a 'dyed in the wool Tory' Duh! I don't understand your point in listing things about Labour I might not like (many of them quite correctly) as you then say yourself you can support a party without agreeing with them on all things. Did I ever say I liked everything about Labour. You then persistently ignore a long list from Andy B, Graeme A and me of things we believe to have been positive about Labour (about near full employment for another). I really don't think I can take you seriously on this.

[Paz]

Have you got a pension, does that affect you?

Why the hell should we (the young) have to work hard to afford an overpriced tiny house -and- to top up old people's pensions who own their own house which shot up in value over the last 20 years.  You get sob stories about Grannies and shit but it's just a failed investment.  Modern Life is Rubbish.  You can't take the equity in your house with you when you die.  They can let there homes out to migrants and survive that way.  Without owning houses, we (the young) may not have that option. 

I used to be all in favour of Trade Unions until I found out they wanted a cut of my wages.  I was sick enough of employment agencies doing that let alone a union.

[Simon S]

Yes, I do have a pension thanks. You? It does affect everyone, not just pensioners. How would you feel if you'd saved in a pension all of your life to be told that the tax man will be helping himself to a large share? Pension fund shortfalls is an issue that Gordon Brown is personally responsible for. 

Maybe you should ask yourself why house prices are so bloody high.

[Paz]

House prices are high because the number of people per square metre is high, amongst other factors. 

With pensions -good for you.  Forgot about your business.  Why did they only discover this seeemingly important detail in the small print of a 97/98 Budget in the last month?  I didn't see it much in the news much at the time when it could've been rectified. 

I'd feel pissed off in that situation, but if you've got a drastically aging population then your pension isn't worth as much and the old peopel will have to work too.  Pissed off as much at circumstances and the system, as at Grodon Brown in particular.  Your pension's just dead money, it's not helping people who are economically active - e.g. feeding you. 

The youth of today. I predict a riot.  I can be arrested for saying that now?

Obviously I haven't thought much of this through, but I'm in a different position where I have nothing of financial value to protect, no responsibilities beyond the de facto and everything to gain, and I can be idealistic and vacously selfless.  So I'm with Broken Sword:  `The suffering of one is nought compared to the suffering of all'.  It's a really deep and meaningfull quote when seen in the midst of lots of expert sword fighting.

[Monolith]

(though in reality there has been much very good about the last ten years:.... new deal

Agree with everything you have said there Andy apart from New Deal. Having been on it, I think it should be titled Raw Deal.

[andy popp]

Fair comment Monolith, I've not experienced it personally so take your word.

[Somebody's Fool]

As dour and ascetic as Gordon seems, I'd like to think his substance is going to be better than Tony's style.  I for one would rather have a Prime Minister who wasn't entirely obsessed with their own legacy.  Blair's speech the other day about always doing the best for the country was particularly cringeworthy.

What's that Tony?  You've spent the last 10 years doing what's best for the country?  Well if I'm not mistaken that was supposed to be your job.

[Will Hunt]

If only everybody voted Liberal Democrat. The world would be a better place. And everybody knows that liberals are better in the sack.

The "youngest member of the conservative" party goes to our school. Spare me.

EDIT: And get proportional representation in as well.

[andy_e]

I had a mate once who insisted everyone should vote liberal because they wanted to make pr0n available to 16 year olds.

Yay - 

[Will Hunt]

That was a liberal policy?! They have obviously never heard of the internet. Not that I do that sort of thing of course.