[Nibile]

yesterday i pulled and locked-off a total of 840 kg.

[Mark Lloyd]

On the subject of power and technique
The first time I saw Ben Moon (the ultimate techinque is no substitute for power hero) climb the thing that struck me was
how good his movement on rock was his foot palcement and body positioning.
Ok so we can all style problems that feel easy but my overriding impression was of someone in tune with the rock,
that comes from spending a lot of time climbing not just training.

[Buoux 8C]

I believe that your dislike of training has held you back almost as much as a blindspot for technique has held back others. Maybe that's fine by you, but might you exceed your own aspirations with some deadhangs and a few laps on Powerband?

That is exactly the point I made regarding to Mr. Long’s naivety- although Stu is a bit more diplomatic.

It seams Adam that even you will accept an imbalance in abilities is not the way forward. Whilst you/ amongst others are happy to believe that people who are strong and have poor technique are the village idiots, surely the same goes for those who have a great technique but are as weak as kittens?

I have climbed with most of the world class climbers currently on the circuit, and not one has a poor technique. It may be right to say, with some of them at least, their power is maybe better than their technical ability, but the foundation of technique is pretty damn solid. Dai Koyamada for example, has solely campussed and deadhung for the last 5 years, but watch him climb and he uses his feet obscenely well, almost like hands; hooking and grabbing everything he can. But if you ask him his way to progression, he would always say power.

Myself, as another example, although I'd be the first to admit my level of power does exceed my technical ability by approximately two grades (i.e, my hardest stuff will be power orientated), that still leaves my able to climb routes/boulders of a technical nature up to French 8c/ font 8b. Can you honestly argue that this level of technique is not sufficient? Even though I have spent the last three years campusisng? You must remember Adam, that whilst I am a power orientated climber, things such as Careless Torque are so far beneath my top level, that even though they do not suit me, I'm afraid to say they are still pretty easy.

Obviously there are some that have no technique and vice versa, but it is important to understand that these guys will never be world class, just like the ones who have great technique but no power.

Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room. Can you honestly say that there are better ways to get to a world class level, in any way of climbing? Thus making all the climbers that used the school lucky, It is important to understand that anyone in Britain who tried other methods, have not succeeded in becoming one of the best. Now I’m not particularly good at Maths, but even I can say this is a sound assumption.

As much as you like to believe Leo and Ben learnt to climb purely on the rocks, have never stepped a foot indoors, do not even know, nor need to know what training is and are by far the best climbers Britain has ever produced. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Both of them spent there youth hood climbing comps, training indoors building up a solid foundation of climbing and physical ability, Ben still does now, and is also regularly seen climbing at Raven Tor- another of your ‘chosen’ places. Most importantly, I believe neither are world class climbers in any style (feel free to correct me). So how can you justify your beliefs, when, quite simply, things just don’t quite add up.

Ps, sorry for typo's/ errors, i am in a great rush.

[Johnny Brown]

Quote from: Johnny Brown on Today at 01:04:41 PM
Every time I go indoor climbing a little piece of me dies.  I'd sooner fuck-off the opportunity to progress in areas currently beyond my ken and do what I want to do/love than get sweaty with a bunch of body-nazi's, even though I accept that to do so I may not improve on my own turf as much as I might wish.

Genius.

As much as you like to believe Leo and Ben learnt to climb purely on the rocks, have never stepped a foot indoors, do not even know, nor need to know what training is and are by far the best climbers Britain has ever produced.

If you had actually read what I wrote rather than imagining it based on your barmy mental image of me, you might know that I don't think along any of those lines.

Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room.

This is a remarkable statement which only goes to show how limited, naive and frankly wrong your own world view is. What is your definition of 'world' and 'climber'? What happened before the school was built? Did time start then, did climbing not exist before then or did Britain not produce world class climbers?

Anyway this is beside the point as I have never said training is not essential if you want to be world class, nor that being strong is somehow bad. Apart from my initial statement, which I quickly admitted was a flippant wind-up (and a mighty successful one it would seem), all I have said is that I meet a lot of folk committed to training who would do well to make do with the strength they have for a bit and work on their technique. I don't see why that is such a heresy.

[Buoux 8C]

Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room.

Yes. You are correct, if that is what I believed I would be barmy. I was referring to since the schoolroom opened. I'm sorry if I caused you unwanted stress- I must make more of an effort to re-read what I write in future.

Obviously, the likes of Joe Brown did not use the school, as it was not built at that point. But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?

If you had actually read what I wrote rather than imagining it based on your barmy mental image of me, you might know that I don't think along any of those lines.

I have yet to develop an image of you Johnny. I have encountered you several times out and about; had the mis-fortune to be on the receiving end of your apparent 'humour/ and occasionally read what you write on these forums, thus my responses are based on only a small part of your life. If I am incorrect in my presumptions then apologies all round. Only you know what you believe, and I respect that and am willing to withdraw any comments made about you if they are untrue. Likewise, your expressed opinions on me are not particularly informative, yet you still went about forming opinions  and openly making suggestions/jokes in public houses in Sheffield, when, in fact you had little or no idea what you were talking about. Consequently, rightly or wrongly, people formed opinions which may or may not reflect the true person you are.

I think if you do not want to be mis-construed then you should pay particular attention to what you class as humour. This seems, in my opinion, to be where the problem lies - you make ‘jokes’ which are mis construed, people reply on the basis of your jokes and you feel ‘set upon’ as your comments were never your beliefs in the first place.

I obviously do-not claim to be perfect. Far from it, and I have also been mis-construed with comments made on these forums in the past and know just how annoying it can be.
Obviously this is my opinion, take it as you might.

Anyway this is beside the point as I have never said training is not essential if you want to be world class, nor that being strong is somehow bad. Apart from my initial statement, which I quickly admitted was a flippant wind-up (and a mighty successful one it would seem), all I have said is that I meet a lot of folk committed to training who would do well to make do with the strength they have for a bit and work on their technique. I don't see why that is such a heresy.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Johnny Brown]

But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?

I think you need to enlargen your view of the definition of the word 'climber' beyond bouldering and sport.

Anyway, as this seems to be about more than it appears, and clearly you have only second-hand information on what I may or may not have said to friends over a pint. As I've seen in this 'debate' folk are only too willing to jump to conclusions when they feel denigrated. Don't worry, I don't feel 'set upon'.

Clearly you think I have accused you of lying. I haven't. What I did say was this:

I think it is hypocritical to start your climbing media career by openly accusing Ben Heason of being a liar, on the basis of him having limited evidence for his ascents, and then to go on to report several ascents with limited evidence of your own.

Had I made such accusations I would have wanted my own career to be whiter than white.

Please note well here: this is not a suggestion that you have lied. Clearly your friends and informants have become confused here. And if I have overlooked your evidence please correct me publicly, as I know there are others who have overlooked it also.

[Somebody's Fool]

For what it's worth...

I agree with JB in so far as one of the reasons I got into climbing and why I still love it today is because it's outdoors. If I look back on my climbing 'career' the best and most lasting memories more often than not involve weather, crags and people.  The whole range of factors go together to make what is so special about what we do.  Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the feeling of satisfaction that comes from pushing myself and a hard(ish) ascent, but from personal experience I find this fleeting.  It is not why I continue to climb.

The British climbing scene is too big now for everyone to like the same thing anyway.  It would be shit if everybody turned up to do White Wand every weekend and I'm sure the members at the school would be dismayed if hundreds turned up to try Driller Killer of a Sunday afternoon.  We should be thankful that tastes are so different because it spreads the load on our fragile playground.

I do believe however that this recent spate of dissatisfaction with the state of funding for climbing comes from those firmly entrenched in the training mentality.  I don't know if the amount of work they put in makes it feel like a full time job. That this compulsion makes them feel they deserve something back.  I would like to think that people climb for its own reward. This may be naive sentiment in this day and age but I'm sure the people I enjoy climbing with share this outlook.

[Buoux 8C]

In fact, fuck it. Lets just wait till we next meet.

[Buoux 8C]

I was going to leave it. But then the rumors would grow.

Firstly,

Quote
But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?

I think you need to enlargen your view of the definition of the word 'climber' beyond bouldering and sport.

Yes, the likes of Andy Cave are really known for their sport and bouldering. I think you will find that there are sport climbers, boulderers, trad climbers, alpinists, all of world class ability’s that use the school.

I think it is hypocritical to start your climbing media career by openly accusing Ben Heason of being a liar, on the basis of him having limited evidence for his ascents, and then to go on to report several ascents with limited evidence of your own.

Had I made such accusations I would have wanted my own career to be whiter than white.

Adam. On what basis do you make this assumption? As far as i am concerned we have never climbed together. We hardly know each other. You have never asked me details regarding any of my ascents. You don't know who I climb with and again have never asked. You don't know whether or not I have proof for my ascents, and have never asked.

In fact, you know very little about my climbing, or me, and have never taken the time to find out. So how can you honestly comment that one; I have gone on to report several ascents with limited evidence of my own and two; whether or not my career is whiter than white.

If you can recall Adam, we had this conversation about a year ago when you made similar remarks about my ascent of Careless Torque. I phoned both you and Dense (the other accuser) up and offered to go back the next day, with both of you to climb it again, in return for an apology on my success. You declined. Not me, YOU. I hoped that would have been the end of it. But obviously not.

Anyway, for the record, I have witnesses and proof for everything I have ever climbed (obviously not some insignificant stuff). If it really worries you that much Adam, then do what I told you to do when we last spoke about Careless Torque on the phone - come and ask me, express your concerns, and I will do my utmost to put your mind at rest. Likewise, the same goes for anyone else.

What else can one do in this situation? I just hope that either Adam puts up, or shuts up, as it is becoming entirely unfair and frustrating.

[Johnny Brown]

How could you have possibly 'overlooked' my evidence? How do you even know I have 'limited' evidence for my ascents? You have never asked me who I climb with. You have never asked me what evidence I have. You have never asked me anything along these lines. Ever.

By the same method you 'know' that I have made accusations about you being a liar (which, as I explained above, I haven't) - that is by talking to our mutual friends Keith and Doyle. Clearly they are unreliable at passing information either way.

If I remember correctly Adam, you made similar remarks when I climbed Careless Torque. I phoned both you and Dense (the other accuser) up and offered to go back the next day, with both of you and climb it again, in return for an apology on my success. You declined. Not me, YOU.

As I remember, these are the only 'remarks' I have made on the subject. My memory of that phone call is that we concluded that Doyle had got the wrong end of the stick; i.e taking my assertion of it being hypocritical climbing and claiming it without witnesses as doubting your ascent. I won't repeat your reasons why this might have been the case. I have already written up your ascent in the new BMC guide script for which I am writing the Plantation bouldering.

Nevertheless you continued making unfounded accusations, Which, I believe was entirely unfair, but I put up with it and moved on. You on the other hand have continued your cowardly ways.

No I didn't. Who exactly is telling you this?

As I can recall on numerous occasions you, making defamatory remarks about Ben Heason. The only difference is you decided to keep stum when it all came out, although even then that did not stop you continuing your 'two faced' cowardless attacks on Ben.

Again, no I didn't. For the record, we corresponded before you made your public accusations. I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him. I didn't, and still don't, feel there is sufficient evidence to make such an accusation; and I even warned you not to make them for that reason. Nevertheless you went ahead and events unfolded exactly as I had warned you they might. I see Ben around and  I don't think he feels I have been or am attacking him.

My career is in fact 'whiter than white' as you so naively put it. I have witnesses and proof for everything i have ever done. Just because you do not know the extent of the proof I have, by way of never asking, does not make me a liar.

You keep calling me naive. If I don't know about all this evidence, despite seeing you in the pub and talking to your best friends about it, how are the general climbing public to know about it? Climbers are by nature inquisitive and will like to know details about ascents; if such details are not forthcoming they will ask questions. Unfortunately for the majority of these people they won't be able to ask Uncle like I do.
YOU are naive to think firstly; climbers will somehow know about all your evidence despite it not being available anywhere, and secondly that myself or Dense have any level of influence about your credibility. People think for themselves, if you feel you lack credibility look at how you have conducted your career. You can make Dense or I scapegoats if you like, it won't stop others asking questions.

Just because you do not know the extent of the proof I have, by way of never asking, does not make me a liar.

As I have said about five times now, I am not calling you a liar. I am calling you a hypocrite for not making all this evidence freely available. You should not have criticised Ben if you were not going to make your own career transparent from the start. It is not me that needs convincing here it is all the folk who are not on drinking terms with your mates.

Why don't you get some of your videos online? I'm sure Doyle and Uncle between them have the expertise even if you haven't. They would serve both to inspire your fans and dispel your critics, I can't see there being any better way really. (Top tip though - don't have too many edits as the real doubters will claim its 'spliced')

[Buoux 8C]

I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?

 

If I don't know about all this evidence, despite seeing you in the pub and talking to your best friends about it

Again, you are making assumptions about who my best friends are. Keith and Doyle, although associates are not my best friends, nor my climbing partners, I climb with these two about 5% of the time.

Just of note, you comment how I use you and Dense as a scapegoat, and that the real doubters out there need proof. Who exactly are these doubters, and why I have never heard of anyone else, bar you two, making accusations.

Why don't you get some of your videos online? I'm sure Doyle and Uncle between them have the expertise even if you haven't. They would serve both to inspire your fans and dispel your critics, I can't see there being any better way really

Categorically not. Until people present themselves as doubters, I have no intention whatsoever in allowing them to save face by me putting up climbing videos on the net. It is the reason there is nothing up on the net at the moment and the reason nothing will ever go up. Like I said, until people outright question me, I will be doing nothing to prove them wrong. It would be unfair for me to present proof and never know the full extent of who these doubters are and exactly what they doubted.

I shall not be replying again. Unless you have anything constructive to say, then I suggest you don’t bother either.

[Paul B]

I do believe however that this recent spate of dissatisfaction with the state of funding for climbing comes from those firmly entrenched in the training mentality.  I don't know if the amount of work they put in makes it feel like a full time job. That this compulsion makes them feel they deserve something back.

I'd just like to emphasise that the issues I raised on the other thread had nothing to do with believing I myself deserved anything back, it was others that I fealt weren't being given the resources that should be available to them.[/size]

[Somebody's Fool]

That's fair enough. I assumed (wrongly) because you'd posted it up that you had a vested interest in what you'd written.   

[Johnny Brown]

I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?

I though you were studying Law? Surely you understand expressing doubt does not neccessarily mean outright disbelief. I still maintain there is not enough evidence on this for anyone but Ben to know the truth

Categorically not. Until people present themselves as doubters, I have no intention whatsoever in allowing them to save face by me putting up climbing videos on the net. It is the reason there is nothing up on the net at the moment and the reason nothing will ever go up. Like I said, until people outright question me, I will be doing nothing to prove them wrong. It would be unfair for me to present proof and never know the full extent of who these doubters are and exactly what they doubted.

I really don't follow your logic here. Most people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters. You seem to be on some kind of mission to actually create doubters? And then meet them? Why? It seems bizarre.

[Paul B]

That's fair enough. I assumed (wrongly) because you'd posted it up that you had a vested interest in what you'd written.   

Glad thats cleared up then, if I see you down the works I'll explain what kicked me off in more detail.

[Doylo]

I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

 

My memory of that phone call is that we concluded that Doyle had got the wrong end of the stick;

  Stupid old doyle eh! I only wish i could tell when people are joking. I blame it on my parents.


I can see Simpsons logic why he doesn't want to publish evidence before people come forward (and by the way i'm speaking purely as an associate here). If there are people out there that doubt him why not just confront him. He's not gonna twat you, he will though do his uptmost to prove you wrong. Personally i believe that Adam has real doubts about both Ben and Rich but he doesn't want to risk his reputation in case he's wrong. I could be wrong though, in fact i've had enough of this shit( ), as they say in the real thing ITS TIME TO CLIMB!

[Bonjoy]

Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious.

to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore

[SA Chris]

I go to RGU once a week, and then do yoga afterwards.

[Bonjoy]

Top climber doesn't mean tallest climber 

[Buoux 8C]

Quote
Quote
I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?

I though you were studying Law? Surely you understand expressing doubt does not necessarily mean outright disbelief. I still maintain there is not enough evidence on this for anyone but Ben to know the truth

Yes. I am studying Law, but the fact remains even if I where to be studying Horticultural science, it still wouldn’t be difficult to remember the occasion/s when I heard you, amongst many others, make outright remarks that Ben is a liar. It also seems I am not alone in hearing these remarks, and Chris has heard you too. Yet you go onto to deny it publically, thus it’s getting silly and should end here. But we both know the truth.

I really don't follow your logic here. Most people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters. You seem to be on some kind of mission to actually create doubters? And then meet them? Why? It seems bizarre.

Again, I believe you are wrong. Most people do not present their evidence up front. Look at any big climbing webpage or magazine; you will often see news reports of people's ascent, but will never see a list of their evidence beneath. Never. I agree this is a shame- I wish climbing was a bit more regulated and that is why I am more than happy to provide evidence if asked. But I would firstly want to know the reasons why the evidence was required, which I believe is far enough as climbing is a personal activity and my ascents mean a lot to me. I would not want to provide evidence for the sole reason of a sick bitter joke.

people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters

For arguments sake, if I were to use your example, I could probably construe doubts about pretty much everyone in the climbing scene; I have never heard or seen any of your 'evidence', does that mean I should have doubts about you? No, it does not. I believe it means I have little interest in your climbing and give you the benefit of the doubt. I am sure that if I paid an interest into your life and wanted to gain evidence regarding your ascents I would not go round Sheffield pubs asking Tom, Dick and Harry. I would just ask you, which would be the only way to get information that was correct, and not formed by 'Chinese whispers'.

On a final note, you claim there are no videos of me climbing, and I should release some videos to clear up any rumors that may, or may not be forming, which in hindsight is a fare point. Yet it doesn’t take a genius to get hold of a substantial amount of footage of me climbing. For example;

Chris Doyle has openly distributed a film called 'Perky Pinky' featuring a me climbing in the school, doing pretty much every hard problem in there (in one session may I add) campussing 1-5-9 about ten times on the trot, and doing 9 one armed pull ups after about 4 hours of solid climbing. Obviously, this is indoor climbing, I am certain you will believe it has not relevance to a 5c arete on the grit. However, your opinion is particularly rare on this one, and I believe this film does my capabilities quite well.

If you look a little further, Doyle also has given out a film called Obsession. Yes, I would be the first to admit that Doyle did not capture my actual ascent of Action Directe. But he did, in the only session of good conditions, film me climb from the second move to the end pretty easily, and go on to climb the first two moves with ease. Obviously not a full ascent, but clearly showing my ability to climb the route with relative ease. This film also shows me walk up a hard 8B, in direct sun making the conditions less than ideal. This ascent led Markus Bock to express amazement, (as this route is renowned for needing perfect conditions for its slopey crux pinch). I also went on to do the single crux move ( a move rated about V13) in one session on an 1 move 8c+ called Vanquish. Again not full ascents, but still showing my capabilities of doing V13 in a session.

I understand you may feel that it is strange that Chris was not there to film Action Directe (just of note, there was five others there, so I am not short of witnesses). But if you talk to me personally, I have very good reasoning, but am not willing to disclose it publicly.

The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.

Not a lot, I agree, but it is a start. I cannot post anything more until I collect my footage from Birmingham (where it is all kept). But out of interest Adam, if I were to provide more footage, what exactly do you believe would help clear things up (i.e. what routes/boulders do I need to provide footage for?), What do I need to show that the above does not show already?  

I look forward to your response.

[Buoux 8C]

Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious. What ever happened to….

to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore

Yes. I agree John. Which is why I have always been willing to provide information if asked outright. Surely one cannot base history on hearsay, and as no one has never asked me, it seems this is what people are doing. I am, and always have been more than happy to talk about my ascents if asked. I have always been reluctant to bring them up, as, believe it or not, id rather not talk about stuff if it can be helped. But if people ask, I will always try my best to answer.

[SA Chris]

Top climber doesn't mean tallest climber 

Just trying to bring it back on topic. Unsuccessfully it seems. Plus my mate who I regularly climb with is taller than me..

[andy popp]

Boy, has this been an edifying spectacle.

[Buoux 8C]

Just of note.

The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.

This should have read, these were both climbed in a short session.

And John, where exactly did you get that quote from me? Im pretty sure that is not my writitng, so it would be great for you to enlighten me as to the specific page. Thanks.

[Bonjoy]

I'd love to see the Careless video! An onsight of this route was the holy grail of peak grit bouldering for quite some time and to watch footage of the prize being claimed would be awesome!!

 The quote is a direct lift from the deleted Heason topic.