[jamesturnbull97]

I'm all aboard with the 3rd RP sending, I've done dozens of routes 3rd redpoint (4th go up of the day). I often think it is mental as well as you think that you'll be to tried to do it at the end of the day so it takes some of the pressure off so you climb better. In Ceuse at the end of a 3 month euro trip last year essentially climbing 2 on 1 off for the entirety I found myself ticking routes 4th or 5th RP of the day having climbed properly on early goes.

[Rocksteady]

I think I get 3-4 genuine good goes in a day.

In terms of when to have next go it depends on weather conditions and why I fell off. If I slipped off early I might wait just 20 mins and have another go. If I gave it everything and came off near the top I'd wait an hour, or until I felt fully recovered. In UK winter though there can be the challenge of fully cooling down so sometimes I'd have to warm back up with bouldering around or an abortive go at the start of the route to get the blood flowing again.

But I've read a number of times Ondra saying he gets 1-2 goes a day on absolute maximum level routes. When I saw him trying Shaxi Raxi years ago he only had one go a day. That would be quite below his top level now I guess!

[Doylo]

Depends how long the route is and how high you get.

[Smith42]

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Thank you for all the earlier advice, especially Stu, that was bit of wake up call. 
Been doing lower intensity higher volume and feel fitter already! 

Currently doing:
Aerobic day
Aerobic day
Rest day,
Strength/Power day,
Aerobic day
Aerobic day
Rest day.

Valley Bouldering wall been trying four x 15mins on/off on Trav/Circuit board but it’s a bit steep (or I’m not quite fit enough yet) so usually end in failure.  @500moves.
Newcastle Climbing Centre I v been climbing up and down for 15mins which works well.  @600m climbing.
Sunderland Wall been leading four blocks of four routes. @300m climbing.

Last night I set off to climb four blocks of four long 6a/6a+ routes at Sunderland Wall, including lowering and rope stuff that’s around 20-25mins a block.   However the first block felt a bit too easy so on the next three blocks I threw in some 6b/6c routes.  By the last block I was back on the first 6a fighting to hang on the jugs. 

Am I correct in thinking that this means the intensity is too hard for me and I should stick to cruising the 6a/6a+ for the whole session so I feel slightly pumped by the end of the session or should I persevere at the higher level until I’m cruising the 6b/6c routes?

[Will Hunt]

I'm also interested in this. For the past month or two I've been trying to mix in some endurancey work into my wall visits (1 per week). Now that the Depot comp (5th overall. YYFY) has finished I've switched this to entirely aerocap work as my problem seems to be that I pump out very quickly and stay very very pumped, even after moving onto good holds (I'm supposing this is an aerobic system that is completely unable to deal with the lactic created by the anaerobic system - so basically what the OP is reporting).

I've basically been doing easier lead and top-rope routes at the wall (although I have been naughty and been trying too hard sometimes). I'm not really sure where to pitch my effort. If I do some 4x4s should I be at failure or near-failure on the last rep of each set? Or should the aim be to just do as many moves in a session? If I was going to do this then presumably I'd just stick to 5s and 6as and race up as many routes as possible. I don't think I'd succeed in getting very pumped.

[highrepute]

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

I can tolerate the idea of doing 10-20 mins aerocap as a warmup/down but the rest of the session should be involve getting pumped to oblivion.

I'm aware that there is this analogy to running were pro runners do 80% easy runs and 20% hard or something. But we're not pro runners or pro climbers or runners. If a club runner wants to get quicker they go on more short and fast runs, getting their skinny legs pumped as fuck.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Borrows once told me - Very tired and very bored.

This advice is entirely based on what i think in my head I have collected no psuedo-scientific data involving banister rails to come up with this advice.

[tomtom]

Will - just buy yourself a road bike and some lycra and skip the endurance/chuffing stage

[bendavison]

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

I kinda like this little rant. AeroCap is getting an awful lot of attention. However, I get the impression that those being trained by lattice and those who have looked into it are still going and getting pumped into oblivion during certain phases of their training, but now that's not all they're doing.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

Where did this general obsession with 4x4s on routes for very pumpy enduro training come from? Unless your wall is <10 m tall then surely this is far too many metres, and therefore much lower intensity, than required for your goal routes? To expand your running analogy, I'd suggest this fits very comfortably into the 'wasted miles' category. Also limiting your training reps/sets multiples of 4, which are just plucked out of thin air, means you lose a variable with which you can adjust your training.

[highrepute]

I kinda like this little rant. AeroCap is getting an awful lot of attention. However, I get the impression that those being trained by lattice and those who have looked into it are still going and getting pumped into oblivion during certain phases of their training, but now that's not all they're doing.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

Where did this general obsession with 4x4s on routes for very pumpy enduro training come from? Unless your wall is <10 m tall then surely this is far too many metres, and therefore much lower intensity, than required for your goal routes? To expand your running analogy, I'd suggest this fits very comfortably into the 'wasted miles' category. Also limiting your training reps/sets multiples of 4, which are just plucked out of thin air, means you lose a variable with which you can adjust your training.

Fair point - I'd listen to Ben on this rather than me.

I guess Will mentioned 4x4s so I was answering that directly. When I do 4x4 routes it would be as training for onsighting spanish sport - so I wanted to be on the wall for a long time and I'd not usually stop at 4 sets. I'm guessing Will is training for esoteric Yorkshire Limestone so couple of laps up the dustiest corner of the wall ought to do it.

[SA Chris]

Will is good at lapping up in a dirty corner.

[Smith42]

I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I think when we are more used to bouldering there is a tendency to feel under trained at the end of an Aerobic session. 
So we increase the difficulty of the moves/routes and end up pumped to failure or near failure at the end of session.  Which is fine, and we still see gains from this, however it is maybe not the most efficient way the train the aerobic system. 

[Stu Littlefair]

In response to all the ranters:

Where did you get the idea that aero cap training means not getting pumped? I think you mean ARC, which is bollocks. Aerocap training is just endurance training and involves sessions like:

1) Long durations on the wall at mild pump throughout
2) Long (~30-60 move) intervals with short rests, at the end of which pump levels should be high, but not terminal.

I don't think there's any sound evidence for which kind of approach is better, so take your pick, mix and match or use yourself as a guinea pig

[highrepute]

In response to all the ranters:

Where did you get the idea that aero cap training means not getting pumped? I think you mean ARC, which is bollocks. Aerocap training is just endurance training and involves sessions like:

1) Long durations on the wall at mild pump throughout
2) Long (~30-60 move) intervals with short rests, at the end of which pump levels should be high, but not terminal.

I don't think there's any sound evidence for which kind of approach is better, so take your pick, mix and match or use yourself as a guinea pig

Aerobic capacity 10+ min n/a Sustained light pump - Training for Sport Climbing By Alex Barrows

[Will Hunt]

One question raised above is whether this sort of training is effective for British limestone. The Barrows Manifesto explains why it should be applicable (ability to shake out and recover at a rest. Ability to metabolise large quantities of lactic etc). Do you put store in this, Stu (notwithstanding your desire to take the piss out of barrows at every opportunity).

[Smith42]

Thanks Stu.
Think am on the right track. 
Going to stick with getting pumped on the routes but will use the Valley board for ciruits with short rests.

[Stu Littlefair]

One question raised above is whether this sort of training is effective for British limestone. The Barrows Manifesto explains why it should be applicable (ability to shake out and recover at a rest. Ability to metabolise large quantities of lactic etc). Do you put store in this, Stu (notwithstanding your desire to take the piss out of barrows at every opportunity).

Having gone through the conversion from tit-to-fit myself I do put a lot of store in low intensity aerobic training, but I wouldn’t credit Barrows with anything.

It has obvious application to shaking out in resta but I think it’s more generally useful; the ability to clean up the mess produced by the anaerobic system should mean a boulderer could have mhore tries in a day, or train harder on volume days. I think jwi’s point earlier about trainers who make everyone do a block of this stuff, even if they don’t care about routes is worth thinking about.

[abarro81]

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Depends. Aero cap work spans everything from easy pootling (increased bloodflow but low pump) to pretty damn pumped but not quite at failure. I split my aero cap work into 1/3rds at the moment - if I'm doing 1hr 30 then 30min is easy ARC, 30 min is continuous aero cap at moderate/high pump and 30min is split intensity at moderate/high pump. That may not be a good way to run it, but it's what I did last year and what I'll do again this year.

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Borrows once told me - Very tired and very bored.

Damn right. Although I actually find the slightly higher intensity aerocap very fun if done on a rope.

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

It might not change it quickly, but it will change it slowly, and give you a base from which to change it quickly when the time comes. I wouldn't advocate having whole sessions like this though, I would do it after other sessions, or as part of a double session. I've seen enough people reap big benefits to be convinced that aero cap works. That said, it should involve a certain level of pump, and a mix of higher and lower intensities.

I don't remember what I wrote (it was about 5 years ago), but I think I do more of the higher intensity aero cap work nowadays than I used to back then. I don't think I did any split intensity work then, or not much, so that's kinda newer too. But don't listen to shit from me anyway, like Stu would tell you

I wouldn’t credit Barrows with anything.

That's not true, you regularly credit me with being both annoying and lanky.

[Will Hunt]

Thanks guys. The message I'm  taking from this is: don't think about it too much, just make sure you do a lot of moves and make sure you get pumped and you won't go far wrong. This suits my limited capacity to get enthusiastic about complicated training regimens.

[SA Chris]

use yourself as a guinea pig

Sit in a cage and eat pellets?

[Steve Crowe]

So I’m thinking for The Bulge you could try

4x(2+4)’s Two easy problems then four hard problems totalling about 30 moves.

Then

About 30 moves circuit board traversing


Then

30 moves foot on Campus

and finally

30 moves upside down across the steep roofs at The Valley

[Steve Crowe]

That was at The Valley

Then the Sunderland Wall session

There are three ex Competition routes that Karin and I put finishes on. One on each 23m section.

Two pinks and a white.

Climb each one three times.

Job done.

[Steve Crowe]

Three good redpoints in a day is taxing your energy systems and all this training is to improve that.

Something else to consider is diet. Good crag food is important, protein and quality carbohydrates.

[TobyD]

Depends how long the route is and how high you get.

... What the holds are like, whether the crag is near your home or not... It's miraculous sometimes how much deeper you'll dig if it's a huge effort/ expense to get back to have another go.

On the groove at Malham, I reckon I get one redpoint a day really. In shape, on something like raindogs I'd get about 5 or 6.

[Smith42]

Thanks Steve, thanks Toby, am nursing a finger injury at moment, (crush/bruising to nerve in my pinkie finger from hanging on jugs at Sun Wall!) but I’ll get back to the endurance training soon.  And think Kilnsey is going to take a few weeks to dry out anyway.