[James Malloch]

* not dissimilar from TurnipTurneds 12 problems routine on his board?? (my memory might be hazy on this..)

I think this was 5 problems with 4 100% goes on each. All around the current max grad with an aim to do them all in a session within 6 weeks?

Interesting discussion though. I often run around the red/purple circuits at the depot either flash, get them in 2/3 goes or don't bother with them (i.e. slabs, eurgh).

More recently I've been trying harder problems, both on the board and at the wall, and have noticed a big improvement in my strength in the last month. I quite like teestub's term "junk miles". It seems appropriate!

[tommytwotone]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

[Yossarian]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

[Murph]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

In running (other endurance sports are available) it's a common protocol whereby you perform the majority of your AeroCap at around 60% of MHR with less work at around 85% of MHR.  You'd also do Strength and perodically PE sessions to compliment this.

The polarized protocol that has been studied, is to avoid the zone between the two "Thresholds" where (from my interpretation), the bottom end is so easy you could do it with masking tape over your mouth, and the other is so hard it's more like 91% of MHR. Basically anything between 70-90 is out.

The endurance training split is more like easy = aerobic/stamina, hard = anaerobic/speed.

......
Sounds like you're trying to apply this protocol to pure strength work?

I don't know. If I was to say what pinkles + max hangs really means I'd say it was a really good warm up before a max hang session. I can't believe the pinkles are less than useless and they aren't hard to recover from. It normally takes 15-20 minutes to warm up for a max hang session anyway.

Murph are these circuit problems at the wall ones you can flash quite easily? IMO this is the definition of ‘junk miles’ applied to climbing

Yes. Easily flashable.

And Tom, James (and pretty much everyone else!) I see you agree. Yep it does sound like junk. Randall's split doesn't apply here anyway, as all he was talking about AeroCap and the ploarized training studies were not on 5 move boulder problems!

So Tom - you advocate trying hard (and the specifics are useful)
James - you've given trying hard a go (and I saw your YYFY good work)
Duncan - trying hard is a skill
Highrepute - high intensity should involve "trying bloody hard" - I do try hard on the fingerboard, but maybe need to try hard to get to the top of the motherboard one day. Surely it's possible.
Galapinos - I think your first reply is really good "climbing is a skill...not just about being strong...easy misses this vital aspect"
TB - in contrast, climbers do too many hill sprints and tempo. I guess boulderers are allowed to so long as they aren't planning on any of those really long problems like Stamina and Ben's Roof.
jwi - running has nothing to do with climbing. Amen.

That sounds pretty bloody unanimous! Thanks all for engaging with this and sharing your thoughts and tips.

[tomtom]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

I'm waiting for pro celebrity big game fishing to come up...

[nai]

In defence of easy climbing, when I'm AeroCapping I use the time to practice movement skills, I'll be mindful to have shoulders engaged, hips in and do a series of cross throughs, cross feet, climbing sideways using outside edges, do sticky hands/feet, I'll use unecessary Egyptians and heels to take weight off arms and be hanging around on aretes trying to contrive heel-toes and shift weight so I can get hands-off.  It really does all help when you're out on rock.

Doing this specifically for bouldering you might need to come up to a level that is moderately challenging, maybe a circuit that you can onsight some and get the rest in a couple of attempts, climb with purpose rather than trying to steam straight through it as fast as possible and repeat problems if you feel you've scraped your way up it until you've done it efficiently, maybe choose a 20 problem circuit and spend 3 minutes per problem and climb it a few times.

[tomtom]

Murph - one +ve of doing loads of easy problems - is good for refining technique (for me at least - coughs loudly at technique..) e.g. making sure hips are close to wall, climbing open, practicing deadpoint body position (missing out holds on jug ladders) etc.. In other words drumming good body position/technique into me...

[nai]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

Remember those number were for a boulderer wishing to do a specific long boulder (20ish moves iirc) problem on a trip, if you're after doing a 40m route that amount of endurance work might get you to bolt three

[tomtom]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

Remember those number were for a boulderer wishing to do a specific long boulder (20ish moves iirc) problem on a trip, if you're after doing a 40m route that amount of endurance work might get you to bolt three

This is why I'm so glad I don't do routes

[nai]

I don't know. If I was to say what pinkles + max hangs really means I'd say it was a really good warm up before a max hang session. I can't believe the pinkles are less than useless and they aren't hard to recover from. It normally takes 15-20 minutes to warm up for a max hang session anyway.

The best warm up for a max hangs session could be max bouldering. Yesterday I tried 3 problems. First an exisiting 8 move problem that I worked sections then repeated three times; next a new 6 moves problem that I did 2-3 move links on; finally a basic 2 mover that I could only do one move at a time.  Then got on my fingerboard and turned all my recent PBs to history.  2+2?

[teestub]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

On the wider topic of the previous page's discussions, where I can see some sense in using aerobic activity training theory for the fitness side of long routes, trying to use that theory as any basis for training for bouldering would seem to be completely flawed. You wouldn't try and increase your deadlift by spending 80% of your time doing 50 reps at 10kg...

[tommytwotone]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

I'm waiting for pro celebrity big game fishing to come up...

My update for the week (this version's a lot more interesting than the real one which is "nowt, still injured":

M - Petanque
T - Korfball
W - Greco Roman Wrestling
T - Figure skating
F - Darts
S - Kabaddi
S - Street Luge

[cheque]

I quite like teestub's term "junk miles". It seems appropriate!

Junk mileage is what the Anderson brothers call it too.

Between getting injured at the end of 2013 and doing 24HHH two years later I did so much easy-moderate climbing mileage and while it gave me lots of chance to practice what Nai's taking about here...

I use the time to practice movement skills, I'll be mindful to have shoulders engaged, hips in and do a series of cross throughs, cross feet, climbing sideways using outside edges, do sticky hands/feet, I'll use unecessary Egyptians and heels to take weight off arms and be hanging around on aretes trying to contrive heel-toes and shift weight so I can get hands-off.  It really does all help when you're out on rock.

...the benfits were largely helpful in (surprise surprise) easy climbing- I cruised 24HHH and on trad routes with a high crux I could climb all the way back down to the floor, stripping the gear as I went if I didn't fancy it. This is a perfect example of the problem- it gave me a massive comfort zone but very little skill and experience outside of it. I was hopeless at bouldering or in fact any climbing above a certain level of difficulty. Getting back to my best took a lot of work, with the work being doing nothing but climbing as hard as I could and leaving my comfort zone every time I went climbing.

[nai]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

On the wider topic of the previous page's discussions, where I can see some sense in using aerobic activity training theory for the fitness side of long routes, trying to use that theory as any basis for training for bouldering would seem to be completely flawed. You wouldn't try and increase your deadlift by spending 80% of your time doing 50 reps at 10kg...

No not a priority and I'm not suggesting it should be, rather that use easier climbing to build skills and improve movement, etc.

And while I have seen a stidy that suggests lifting as heavy as possible isn't as important as liftong to failure, I'm sure there's a cut-off point to that at something like 10-12 reps rather than 50odd

[highrepute]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

I usually do 5-10 mins to warm up and warm down. Find it very effective for this as I get very warm doing it. I half believe that it helps with recovery (?).

I think Lattice might still prescribe it for boulders. Something like a strong aerobic base will help you recover between goes and session allowing harder/more/more intense training sessions.

[highrepute]

but maybe need to try hard to get to the top of the motherboard one day. Surely it's possible.

This would be good training for Advanced Training. Similar angles, fingery and feet cut loose. It's easier to get to the top now they have LEDs lighting the way

[Murph]

I think Lattice might still prescribe it for boulders.

Yeah the 5:00 on / 5:00 off & 1:45 20-move circuit / 1:45 rest scenario was for a boulderer with a poor aerobic capacity looking to do a 16 move 8A.

16 moves though...that sounds like a route. Obviously the guy needed to get his stamina up. Proper boulder problems don't need any stamina.

Pinkles...fucksake...no wonder I've been stuck on the low 7s for the last two years.

[Nibile]

TTT, Tom, Yos: bunch of mofos. 
If you check some Power Club entries you'll find a few basket games thrown in. I got back into it thanks to a friend of mine, so far I've played four or five games, let's say once per month. It's very fun, but it really takes a lot of effort. I usually take a few days to recover, especially my glutes and hamstrings, but mostly my lower back.
I really miss not being phisically able to play as I liked to. Technique hasn't improved either in the last 25 years of not playing at all...

[cheque]

Do you mean basketball Nibs? We never abbreviate it over here- I think that's what confused TTT.

[Nibile]

Oh sorry! I didn't know it.
Yes, basketball.

[tommytwotone]

Oh sorry! I didn't know it.
Yes, basketball.

Aha - that's a shame though, I had pictured you performing some mega-hardcore weightlifting / wickerwork crossover type thing.

Despite being of more modest proportions I also used to play a fair bit of b-ball back in the day. Would love to get back into it but I suspect my overall fitness / hand-eye co-ordination have gone downhill a long way since!

[cheque]

We never abbreviate it

b-ball

 

[Yossarian]

Bit late this week...

STG - Continue shrinking, get stronger, press on with sandstone (re)apprenticeship
MTG - 7A / 7b+ / E3+
LTG - 8a, etc

Mon - Chimera. Good structured-ish session on the board. Tried to figure out some aerocap traverse routes, but tricky getting the intensity right.
Tues -  Statham megamix
Wed - Beastmaker - repeaters, inc the slopers which I’ve struggled with previously. Nice efficient session.
Thursday - Statham megamix
Friday - Beastmaker - ditto Wednesday
Saturday - Chimera. Started off with session on the board - took a while to get acclimatised, prob thanks to fingerboard the previous evening. Then had major breakthrough session on problems on the main walls. Suddenly found myself cruising problems that had felt desperate the week before. Overweight dad on fire, etc.
Sunday - Well-earned rest...

Weight: 97.3kg - 96.9kg

Good style still, despite being stuck indoors all week. Feeling substantially stronger than I was last year, and trying to focus on how much fun things might be if / when I lose another 10kg+. Achilles feels better too, so am going to try to reintroduce some more running.

[Yossarian]

Good syke even...

[Murph]

Achilles feels better too, so am going to try to reintroduce some more running.

A bit of unsolicited advice, but I had achilles problems last year and when I felt up to running again (no pain doing hop tests, or raising and lowering on one foot etc) I got back into it very steadily. It was initially one minute jog, one minute walk x3....then the next day two minutes jog, one minute walk x3 then three minutes, then 1k run one minute walk x 3.

Sounds super cautious but I had paid a lady to look at my ankle and tell me what to do to rehab. That’s what she said. I haven’t been injured since touch wood.

Good luck.