[tomtom]

Aloha! Somehow seemed ironically appropriate given the weather...

M: Anston with Nai. Great session - though managed nothing. Worked moves on Beretta and Fine Art (which I managed to get the first 3-4 moves very wired) for next time... Nai had a good session (I'm sure he'll report)

Tu & We Work

Thu: Desperate to find somewhere outdoors in Snowmageddon, I headed to Craig Y Longridge. Great conditions (rock wise) spindrift on a 30+ mph wind made it less hospitable. Lasted 10 min. Went to Brownstones (west facing) and got stuck into Lifeline and Colt (again) felt I made marginal progress on the latter but it was a mission. Had to wade through some knee deep drifts on the approach path etc.. was find under the cliff...

Fr: Hmm... started to get a cold

Sa: Cold developed - Picked up hire van at 8:30am Drove Manchester to S.London to pick up a load of furniture (clearing out Brother in laws house that was being sold after he died last year..) and back again. Got home about 8:30pm. Roads were wonderfully clear (apart from 40min stationary at the blackwall tunnel).

Su: Unpack van and take back to rental place. Had a short pass out for the afternoon, but felt shit still, so pottered about with the boy.

[measles23]

Thanks Tom

69.2kg

M- nul

T- Bailed going to Anston for fear of the beast from the east.
Max hangs open crimp on BM micros (10mm): 8 sets up to (+30kg x 5s) x 3
Strength Asylum: DL - 14 sets including 6 singles at 225; first with speed, all solid feeling very strong and stable with newish setup. Joy and passion for the DL at the mo - I can smell big PBs in the air..

W- nul

T- Strength Asylum: DL(conventional) - 11 sets up to another conventional PB at 215kg
1-armers: 8 sets up to +2.5kg on right, +5kg on left and several eccentrics with added weight, all good quality.

F- ace DOMS in arms must do more eccentrics 

S- Max hangs open crimp on BM micros (10mm): 8 sets up to +35kg x 5s but just for one peak set

S- spotted for the others at the wall

Not getting out, not climbing indoors, basically now a Powerlifter who owns a fingerboard..

[Dolly]

I’ve started again
M Autobelay routes at gym
T Wave. Took it very steadily. Lots of level 1, good few level 2 and one level 3. Left shoulder very limiting. I’m going to see a third physio this week to get another opinion
W HIT
T Shed power
F HIT
S Routes at gym. More than usual with 2 of the harder ones
S Some quick dirty deadlifts in the cellar


First week in ages I’ve felt like. Climber again rather than a slug

[Coops_13]

M:
T: Moonboard volume sesh. Did 22 Benchmarks 6B+ - 6C+
W:
T: Moonboard higher intensity sesh, did 8 problems including a couple of low 7s Benchmarks
F: Drove to Brum midday to avoid Beast
S: Parisella's with Yetix who was looking strong Brutally cold so climbing like a sack of  Finally managed Cave Righthand 6B though... Did RWT 7A, Lipstick RH 6C and Dust Kick Low 7A. Failed at the end of both Lipstick and Clever Beaver. Couldn't even pull off the floor of CBLS
S: Low psyche led me indoors to try out the Depot in Birmingham. Problems felt hard and not fun so went and played on their woodie. Such a sick board, had a lot of fun and ended up having a good session!

Heavy gravity weekend for me, last weekend outside till after Easter so will have to make some indoor training pay off!

[shark]

11.2-4 (Average 157.0 up 1.6lb on last week - disaster - 158.8 this morning  )

M. Tor with Nick -1deg alternated between nice winter sun and snow showers. Worked last half of Ben's roof. Did Too Hard for Mark Leach a couple of times and also from crimps in roof to Too Hard a couple of times. Felt solid on this section especially compared to a few years ago. Now done whole problem on 4 sections

T.  Had a taster session with a coach - Tim C. Highlighted all manner of wonkiness including the tightest lats he'd ever come across. Felt glum about it especially the bit where he said that to properly address the issues I would have to cut down on climbing and climb worse to get better. Not sure I can sign up to that. Felt more glum later sacking off going to Malham

W. Had meant to be a second session on the Oak but drive would have been epic even in an a 4WD. Instead had first fingerboard session for 4 weeks. Max hangs on 12mm edge. PB's! (2 secs half crimp with +10kg and 7 secs drag on 12mm edge with +22.5kg).

T. Foundry. Did some easy autobelay and forearms felt sore and tired. Did a level2 on wave then struggled on the next one so sacked the session off.

F.

S.  Extended session at home. Strted out fingerboarding but semed like I was still not fully recvered from weds. Went on old Oak replica board project. Hard and gnarly! Idea was to fashion an AnCap workout based on this but too hard for that at the moment. Something to aim for. Will try this once or twice a week 

S.

So much for psyche restoration. Even if had got to Malham it would have been a bit pointless - the snow melt means it is going to seep soon and what I was planning on was regular visits but that needs a consistent window of the route being dry.

Session with Tim was thought provoking. I am sceptical that the benefits are worth the sacrifice of going all out to correct muscular and postural inefficiencies especially as I am reasonably adept at keeping injury at bay. Will see him again Fri and work on a plan that isn't too disruptive and focuses on the worst aspects.In meantime I have been foam rolling body parts into submission. 

Nice as it was to score a couple of PB's on the fingerboard I clearly should have eased back into it more gradually after a break given that I hadn't fully recovered after 3 days. Had been meaning to get back on the old bard project for ages so glad to have at last pulled my finger out with that

[yetix]

STG: Rock Atrocity. Just going to keep working it until it goes
MTG: Paint It Black + Suavito
LTG: 8A

63kg


M: Depot. quick session on the 30 board 1 arm hangs 3/6/9secondsx5.
T: Yoga
W: Depot. Completed all but 3 of the purple circuit. 1 arm hangs 3/6/9secondsx5. Bench press 4x8. Shoulder Press 4x8
T: Yogax2 and scapular.shoulder exercises
F: Rest
S: Parisella's cave with Coops and Pete. It was baltic! Average session, no progress on Rock Atrocity!
S: Depot Manchester. Was shattered. Fell off the end of a couple of the new oranges, did a few yellows. Must be soft! 

[T_B]

M -
T - Lunch: Furnace board. It took so long to get warmed up that it ended up being a very short session.
W - Furnace board warm up, then campus board middle rungs (first time since end Jan last year that I've done any campussing). Took 2 x elbow-knocking boobs off. Managed 1-4-6 on both arms. Felt better on left arm than last couple of years, when I definitely had a shoulder issue/weakness. A long way off Oct/Nov 2015 when I could do 1-5-8 on my right.
T -
F - Wave. Felt really good. Rinsed stuff first go that I couldn't touch last wk.
S -
S - Garage board 1.5hrs. Strongest session on this board ever I think. Did all hard problems. Broke hold on fingery project as I was pulling so hard on it!

Weird week with all the snow. Ended up running 56Km (mostly in and out of work), and pretty knackered come Thursday. Some good, short intense climbing sessions, which weren't too badly affected.

Plan to do some more campussing this wk.

[shark]

S - Garage board 1.5hrs. Strongest session on this board ever I think. Did all hard problems. Broke hold on fingery project as I was pulling so hard on it!

 

[nai]

M - Anston with tt.  After Thursday I was confident Colt and Fine Art would go without too much hassle giving me the chance to move on to something else.  The number of times I've headed out feeling like that I should know better really and indeed things didn't go according to plan with both requiring further beta tweaks (or at least understanding the slight difference in hand and body position when climbing into moves rather than pulling on at them), Fine Art eventually giving up in last-chance saloon and Colt needing a penalty shoot-out.  Glad to do them but also glad to see the back of them, must have tried them both on 4/5 visits.

T massage, 50:50 left hip/thigh, right shoulder.

W - bit sore, might have been tempted by LI Aero but saved by the snow/school closure. Sledging.

Th -
AM - AnCap, 10/12 completed (maight have finished lst rep but a foothodl span). Intensity possibly a tiny bit low. 

Eve - LI AeroCap.  Sort of LI anyway, 40s laps of jugs, 20s rest x10 x3, too cold for 10 minutes on the easier angle board maybe more MI.

F - intended to fingerboard but wasn't recovered enough so conditioning & HI AeroCap. Felt very hard, was pumping out quite early and had to reduce intensity (after nailing this circuit last week and having to add extra moves)

S- hour of mobility plus some core

S - tried to get going to fingerboard but forearms weren't having it

Came up with a bit of a plan for mobility and conditioning from stuff to do daily starting with basics that can be done while making breakfast in the morning through to comprehensive weekly workouts to be fitted into the bigger picture.

Only climbed 3 days so best call that a rest week and crack on with putting some effort in. 

[Nibile]

Power Club
26-4 mar

Mon - weights, very tired. 
Tue - rest.
Wed - cleans 5-3-1, second week of fourth cycle, 68x10. Brilliant session with 5 degrees in the garage.
Thu - a few one arm hangs, boxing bag. Tired.
Fri -   Quick dumbbell complex: press, curls, high pulls.
Sat - basket game.
Sun - boxing bag.

[Murph]

Afternoon chaps.

Still post-viral. Slowly easing back into it now.

M-20k cycle commute. This took it out of me tbh.
T-pinkle (f4?) power hour. Nothing apart from that. Even found a couple of them a bit stiff.
W-full on Homer Simpson mode engaged.
T-HS
F-more HS, but found the energy for some 16kg kettlebells and dishes. I love my simple kettlebell routine.
S-24/16kg kettlebells, 5 minute dishes, 5 minute supermans. Got a pass for a 6k run in the snow. Also snuck in a fingerboard, peaking at +40kgs on small BMs for 4s, 5s. A long way from my best but surprised by this effort really.
S-24/16kg kettlebells, 10 Minute superdish routine, works pinkles circuit (felt easy this time), works BM session peaking at 10s, 9.5s on the same holds and weight as the day before.

Weight 62.5->66.5->65.1 over the last ten days. Think I’m back now though.

Training talk, I’ve been reading up on studies that look at comparative effectiveness of polarized training for endurance athletes versus “threshold” type modalities. Reminded me that Tom Randall mentioned the “black hole of the middle” that is to be avoided. Think I’m going to more fully embrace this in both Climbing and running training. Basically, make most of it really easy but some of it really hard. Try to avoid the hard-but-not-too-hard middle ground. Pinkles + 40kg hangs might fit this pattern. Anyone seriously embraced or rejected this sort of thing in their training?

[galpinos]

Training talk, I’ve been reading up on studies that look at comparative effectiveness of polarized training for endurance athletes versus “threshold” type modalities. Reminded me that Tom Randall mentioned the “black hole of the middle” that is to be avoided. Think I’m going to more fully embrace this in both Climbing and running training. Basically, make most of it really easy but some of it really hard. Try to avoid the hard-but-not-too-hard middle ground. Pinkles + 40kg hangs might fit this pattern. Anyone seriously embraced or rejected this sort of thing in their training?

Climbing is a skill sport. Climbing hard is not just about being strong and I would imagine your approach (though I have no idea what pinkles are but am assuming they are relatively easy problems at the Works) misses this vital aspect.

[jwi]

Training talk, I’ve been reading up on studies that look at comparative effectiveness of polarized training for endurance athletes versus “threshold” type modalities. Reminded me that Tom Randall mentioned the “black hole of the middle” that is to be avoided. Think I’m going to more fully embrace this in both Climbing and running training. Basically, make most of it really easy but some of it really hard. Try to avoid the hard-but-not-too-hard middle ground. Pinkles + 40kg hangs might fit this pattern. Anyone seriously embraced or rejected this sort of thing in their training?

Climbing is a skill sport. Climbing hard is not just about being strong and I would imagine your approach (though I have no idea what pinkles are but am assuming they are relatively easy problems at the Works) misses this vital aspect.

Funny enough, long distance runners (who, lets face it, do a sport that has almost nothing to do with climbing) have started to do much fever 'long easy' runs and concentrate on running at competition speed. "There are no competitions of endurance, only competitions of speed" as legendary running coach Renato Canova puts it.

https://runningscience.co.za/elite-athletes-training-log/renato-canova/

[nai]

Training talk, I’ve been reading up on studies that look at comparative effectiveness of polarized training for endurance athletes versus “threshold” type modalities. Reminded me that Tom Randall mentioned the “black hole of the middle” that is to be avoided. Think I’m going to more fully embrace this in both Climbing and running training. Basically, make most of it really easy but some of it really hard. Try to avoid the hard-but-not-too-hard middle ground. Pinkles + 40kg hangs might fit this pattern. Anyone seriously embraced or rejected this sort of thing in their training?

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
And when these studies talk about "endurance athletes" I think they're talking about their endurance training, i.e. AeroCap.
In running (other endurance sports are available) it's a common protocol whereby you perform the majority of your AeroCap at around 60% of MHR with less work at around 85% of MHR.  You'd also do Strength and perodically PE sessions to compliment this.

Sounds like you're trying to apply this protocol to pure strength work?

[highrepute]

Training talk, I’ve been reading up on studies that look at comparative effectiveness of polarized training for endurance athletes versus “threshold” type modalities. Reminded me that Tom Randall mentioned the “black hole of the middle” that is to be avoided. Think I’m going to more fully embrace this in both Climbing and running training. Basically, make most of it really easy but some of it really hard. Try to avoid the hard-but-not-too-hard middle ground. Pinkles + 40kg hangs might fit this pattern. Anyone seriously embraced or rejected this sort of thing in their training?

I've also been laid low with something recently. Looks like you recovered by the end of the week tho.

Nai posted while I was writing this but I think it still applies...

I think Randall's point as it relates to climbing is... If it's low intensity then it's aerocap (staying on the wall for bloody ages but not pumped) or if it's high intensity then you should be trying bloody hard (whether that is strength or some endurance activity). So i think doing the pinkles (which I assume are piss for you) would only fall into the low-intensity category if you did them pretty much continuously without resting between problems for >10 minutes so that you are engaging your aerocap. Is this what you did? Technique is ignored here.

[T_B]

From talking anecdotally to some folk I get the impression climbers are doing more intensity on these modern training programmes than runners would be. Runners tend to do a lot of base work at really low aerobic intensity ('easy miles'), then specific workouts. Climbers seem to do the equivalent of loads of tempo runs and hill reps! No wonder they can't recover properly and get injured.

I don't know how useful it is to compare endurance sport such as running with climbing. There's definitely some crossover in terms of how you might structure training, but unless you really understand both...

[nai]

From talking anecdotally to some folk I get the impression climbers are doing more intensity on these modern training programmes than runners would be. Runners tend to do a lot of base work at really low aerobic intensity ('easy miles'), then specific workouts.

Just a bit

https://ylmsportscience.com/2018/02/25/typical-training-weeks-for-a-world-class-cross-country-skier-approaching-the-upper-limits-of-human-endurance/

[Murph]

Lots of good responses here! Not read every link yet.

Highrepute - no the pickles weren’t so easy that I could stay on the wall for ages. I took them one at a time and ticked 36 in 40 minutes, with all the waiting that being in the works on a busy day involved. It wasn’t one of those ARC sessions I’ve heard about (and probably misunderstood!)

Galapinos - yep agreed about skill. I think that is maybe where the read across from energy systems gets a bit blurred. Doing easy problems well is still, I think, practicing some aspects of climbing that might be handy in the real world.

TB - agree with the analogy about hill sprints and tempo.

Nai - yeah that’s the sort of example. Lots of training going on there and nearly all of it is very easy. As in, nose breathing, walk up hills easy.

The term “black hole”, in endurance training, was coined by a Norwegian/American academic called Stephen Seiler. He was influenced by the training that elite athletes actually do (particularly cross country skiers - the fittest people on earth) and they were doing a lot of easy pace stuff. And then some “legendary” hard stuff.

There’s a bunch of studies he’s had a hand in that I’ve dug out and found really fascinating. But while it’s got strong relevance to running training (obv), supporting the notion that easy should be super easy and that won’t be a waste of effort, but (and I’m extrapolating here) won’t compromise climbing gains and recovery too much.

However....whether a diet of easy pottering plus fingerboarding will pay dividends...well there’s not been a lot of studies looking into that one. Most people seem to go full gas and either break or crush.

Of course, the ideal training really does depend on the goals. Sprinters almost certainly don’t go out doing 2hr jogs and that’s a more obvious crossover to bouldering...

[duncan]

Preparing for Yosemite four years ago, I did a number of “Half Dome Days” which, inadvertently, seemed to help sport onsighting. Due to the proposed physiological effects? Or because it was low-impact and I could train consistently without getting injured? /speculation (and at very low grades).

At the other end of the spectrum, part of the skill of climbing is being able to try really hard. High intensity training may, in part, help with this even when it’s not particularly specific to climbing movement. /more speculation

STG - Manage aches and pains. Shoulder stretches and strength work 3x weekly. 7b at Siurana. Vertical V4 indoors by end March.
MTG - A classic Pembroke E5; a proper 7b+; a long free route somewhere interesting I’ve not visited before.
LTG - tbc

M - Fingerboard. Micro session of ‘max’ hangs.
T - Stretches. Shoulder strengthening
W - Westway easy bouldering to ~V3. Scarpa demo: I’ve tried various Scarpa shoes over the years, none fitted, all in the same way. Small revelation: Instinct VSs feel great.
T - Stretches. Sledging.
F - Shoulder strengthening. Epic sledging scenes.
S - Fingerboard. Micro session of ‘max’ hangs.
S - Stretches.

Decent week, survived snow shenanigans without injury. Also survived first fingerboard hang sessions since December: didn’t feel disastrously weak, fingerboard ‘pick-ups’ may have some carry over.

Off to Siurana on Friday. Current training style is the antithesis of the last time I was there, I’m interested to see if performance is any different.

[galpinos]

Galapinos - yep agreed about skill. I think that is maybe where the read across from energy systems gets a bit blurred. Doing easy problems well is still, I think, practicing some aspects of climbing that might be handy in the real world.

I think you miss a lot of skill acquisition if the only problems you try are well within your ability. Limit bouldering teaches you to pull hard and really climb at your limit (as Duncan says) and also forces you to find the best technique for you for a move. Problems of which you can do 36 in 40 m ins implies you can get away with sloppy technique as the level is well beneath you.

Of course, the ideal training really does depend on the goals. Sprinters almost certainly don’t go out doing 2hr jogs and that’s a more obvious crossover to bouldering...

I'be no idea what training sprinters actually do, that would be quite interesting. However, with bouldering, if you are sessioning a problem that is very different to one sprint then rest half a day till the next round. You be having 5, 10, 20 attempts or varying length and intensity and I'm not sure the pinkles and hangs plan would help much in this regard.

Who knows, interesting discussion.......

[nai]

T.  Had a taster session with a coach - Tim C. Highlighted all manner of wonkiness including the tightest lats he'd ever come across. Felt glum about it especially the bit where he said that to properly address the issues I would have to cut
down on climbing and climb worse to get better. Not sure I can sign up to that.

Session with Tim was thought provoking. I am sceptical that the benefits are worth the sacrifice of going all out to correct muscular and postural inefficiencies especially as I am reasonably adept at keeping injury at bay. Will see him again Fri and work on a plan that isn't too disruptive and focuses on the worst aspects.In meantime I have been foam rolling body parts into submission.

That's interesting, just looked him up and he seems to promote the same sort of Calisthenic movement I've been getting into. I'm sold on the benefits of movement and posture but have been a bit lost since my last program ended and am currently mulling over buying another and also having my shoulder assesed by someone new, so he sounds like somone I should speak to.

[shark]

Yes - he fits your bill

[Murph]

Galapinos & Duncan - great point...Trying really hard is certainly a massively important skill. And yeah, that’s not going to be tested at all on the easy problems.

Set against this though, getting injured is a right PITA. And trying really hard can be a good way of getting that. I did my shoulder in a year ago by trying really hard with poor form and stressing an underlying weakness. It wasn’t a lifetime project type thing, it was just a mid grade problem that didn’t go the way I was trying it.

Similarly flappers earnt on last problem of the day type lunges. Not recommended. People even break bones while trying hard.

Contrast with a properly warmed up max hang session, limit bouldering is high risk.

Totally agree though there’s a place for engaging hard mode and clearly being stuck on easy mode is no long term plan. Both must have their place tho.

Thinking out loud a bit more, but I’ve had great gains recently by “greasing the groove” with my kettlebell routine. I’ve deliberately made it super easy but consistent and frequent. I’ve not been injured doing it once. Previously I was trying too hard and rushing to go heavier and it felt like I was continually banging up against an injury or niggle. Might be reading too much into that, but I was nowhere near the level I am now. This very much does go against the progressive overload orthodoxy though, so that’s a bit controversial too.

The more I think about it the more interesting this topic is!

[teestub]

Murph are these circuit problems at the wall ones you can flash quite easily? IMO this is the definition of ‘junk miles’ applied to climbing: you won’t really get the skill element out of them if you’re not trying hard enough to be under similar stress as you would be when trying hard, and you’re not a route climber so there’s no requirement to hit the easy aerocap/arc difficulty level.

IMO wall sessions (actual climbing that is, for training rather than for fun) to be valuable should either be working hard problems (projecting, repeating limit problems) or focused on PE if you have a project where that is required (linked boulders/up down up/4x4/ on the minute etc.)

[tomtom]

Murph are these circuit problems at the wall ones you can flash quite easily? IMO this is the definition of ‘junk miles’ applied to climbing: you won’t really get the skill element out of them if you’re not trying hard enough to be under similar stress as you would be when trying hard, and you’re not a route climber so there’s no requirement to hit the easy aerocap/arc difficulty level.

IMO wall sessions (actual climbing that is, for training rather than for fun) to be valuable should either be working hard problems (projecting, repeating limit problems) or focused on PE if you have a project where that is required (linked boulders/up down up/4x4/ on the minute etc.)

^^ this. Absolutely.

At a wall I warm up - then quickly go up (via 3-6 ascending difficulty problems) to a level of difficulty around "can just do/can nearly do/can't do but shows promise." *

You can of course vary what type of problems you are 'trying hard' on - e.g. one session crimpy walls, another compression roofs etc.. etc..

Unless I've been injured and am re-habbing, or not climbed for ages so easing back into it - then spending an hour doing easy problems can feel 'nice' but doesn't help my bouldering.

* not dissimilar from TurnipTurneds 12 problems routine on his board?? (my memory might be hazy on this..)

[James Malloch]

* not dissimilar from TurnipTurneds 12 problems routine on his board?? (my memory might be hazy on this..)

I think this was 5 problems with 4 100% goes on each. All around the current max grad with an aim to do them all in a session within 6 weeks?

Interesting discussion though. I often run around the red/purple circuits at the depot either flash, get them in 2/3 goes or don't bother with them (i.e. slabs, eurgh).

More recently I've been trying harder problems, both on the board and at the wall, and have noticed a big improvement in my strength in the last month. I quite like teestub's term "junk miles". It seems appropriate!

[tommytwotone]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

[Yossarian]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

[Murph]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

In running (other endurance sports are available) it's a common protocol whereby you perform the majority of your AeroCap at around 60% of MHR with less work at around 85% of MHR.  You'd also do Strength and perodically PE sessions to compliment this.

The polarized protocol that has been studied, is to avoid the zone between the two "Thresholds" where (from my interpretation), the bottom end is so easy you could do it with masking tape over your mouth, and the other is so hard it's more like 91% of MHR. Basically anything between 70-90 is out.

The endurance training split is more like easy = aerobic/stamina, hard = anaerobic/speed.

......
Sounds like you're trying to apply this protocol to pure strength work?

I don't know. If I was to say what pinkles + max hangs really means I'd say it was a really good warm up before a max hang session. I can't believe the pinkles are less than useless and they aren't hard to recover from. It normally takes 15-20 minutes to warm up for a max hang session anyway.

Murph are these circuit problems at the wall ones you can flash quite easily? IMO this is the definition of ‘junk miles’ applied to climbing

Yes. Easily flashable.

And Tom, James (and pretty much everyone else!) I see you agree. Yep it does sound like junk. Randall's split doesn't apply here anyway, as all he was talking about AeroCap and the ploarized training studies were not on 5 move boulder problems!

So Tom - you advocate trying hard (and the specifics are useful)
James - you've given trying hard a go (and I saw your YYFY good work)
Duncan - trying hard is a skill
Highrepute - high intensity should involve "trying bloody hard" - I do try hard on the fingerboard, but maybe need to try hard to get to the top of the motherboard one day. Surely it's possible.
Galapinos - I think your first reply is really good "climbing is a skill...not just about being strong...easy misses this vital aspect"
TB - in contrast, climbers do too many hill sprints and tempo. I guess boulderers are allowed to so long as they aren't planning on any of those really long problems like Stamina and Ben's Roof.
jwi - running has nothing to do with climbing. Amen.

That sounds pretty bloody unanimous! Thanks all for engaging with this and sharing your thoughts and tips.

[tomtom]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

I'm waiting for pro celebrity big game fishing to come up...

[nai]

In defence of easy climbing, when I'm AeroCapping I use the time to practice movement skills, I'll be mindful to have shoulders engaged, hips in and do a series of cross throughs, cross feet, climbing sideways using outside edges, do sticky hands/feet, I'll use unecessary Egyptians and heels to take weight off arms and be hanging around on aretes trying to contrive heel-toes and shift weight so I can get hands-off.  It really does all help when you're out on rock.

Doing this specifically for bouldering you might need to come up to a level that is moderately challenging, maybe a circuit that you can onsight some and get the rest in a couple of attempts, climb with purpose rather than trying to steam straight through it as fast as possible and repeat problems if you feel you've scraped your way up it until you've done it efficiently, maybe choose a 20 problem circuit and spend 3 minutes per problem and climb it a few times.

[tomtom]

Murph - one +ve of doing loads of easy problems - is good for refining technique (for me at least - coughs loudly at technique..) e.g. making sure hips are close to wall, climbing open, practicing deadpoint body position (missing out holds on jug ladders) etc.. In other words drumming good body position/technique into me...

[nai]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

Remember those number were for a boulderer wishing to do a specific long boulder (20ish moves iirc) problem on a trip, if you're after doing a 40m route that amount of endurance work might get you to bolt three

[tomtom]

When Tom was talking about it (traingingbeta podcast?) I'm fairly sure it was in relation to Aerobic Capacity training.
......

Re-listened last night. Yes you're quite right Nai, it was specifically around aerobic capacity work. (episode 38, 56:00 in)
What he said was that he has found "split intensity"  to work really well.
Low intensity being 5 minutes continuously very easy, with 5 minutes rest.
High intensity being e.g. 20 moves 1:45 on, 1:45 off something that could be done 3x if tried hard - getting "a little bit pumped" but no more.
Wasted miles being a 40 move circuit that could be done 4 times in a row, shaking out, recovering and just getting through it at lactate threshold.

Remember those number were for a boulderer wishing to do a specific long boulder (20ish moves iirc) problem on a trip, if you're after doing a 40m route that amount of endurance work might get you to bolt three

This is why I'm so glad I don't do routes

[nai]

I don't know. If I was to say what pinkles + max hangs really means I'd say it was a really good warm up before a max hang session. I can't believe the pinkles are less than useless and they aren't hard to recover from. It normally takes 15-20 minutes to warm up for a max hang session anyway.

The best warm up for a max hangs session could be max bouldering. Yesterday I tried 3 problems. First an exisiting 8 move problem that I worked sections then repeated three times; next a new 6 moves problem that I did 2-3 move links on; finally a basic 2 mover that I could only do one move at a time.  Then got on my fingerboard and turned all my recent PBs to history.  2+2?

[teestub]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

On the wider topic of the previous page's discussions, where I can see some sense in using aerobic activity training theory for the fitness side of long routes, trying to use that theory as any basis for training for bouldering would seem to be completely flawed. You wouldn't try and increase your deadlift by spending 80% of your time doing 50 reps at 10kg...

[tommytwotone]

Sat - basket game.

I swear every week Nibs makes up a random-but-plausible-sounding exercise to see if we're actually paying attention!

I'm waiting for pro celebrity big game fishing to come up...

My update for the week (this version's a lot more interesting than the real one which is "nowt, still injured":

M - Petanque
T - Korfball
W - Greco Roman Wrestling
T - Figure skating
F - Darts
S - Kabaddi
S - Street Luge

[cheque]

I quite like teestub's term "junk miles". It seems appropriate!

Junk mileage is what the Anderson brothers call it too.

Between getting injured at the end of 2013 and doing 24HHH two years later I did so much easy-moderate climbing mileage and while it gave me lots of chance to practice what Nai's taking about here...

I use the time to practice movement skills, I'll be mindful to have shoulders engaged, hips in and do a series of cross throughs, cross feet, climbing sideways using outside edges, do sticky hands/feet, I'll use unecessary Egyptians and heels to take weight off arms and be hanging around on aretes trying to contrive heel-toes and shift weight so I can get hands-off.  It really does all help when you're out on rock.

...the benfits were largely helpful in (surprise surprise) easy climbing- I cruised 24HHH and on trad routes with a high crux I could climb all the way back down to the floor, stripping the gear as I went if I didn't fancy it. This is a perfect example of the problem- it gave me a massive comfort zone but very little skill and experience outside of it. I was hopeless at bouldering or in fact any climbing above a certain level of difficulty. Getting back to my best took a lot of work, with the work being doing nothing but climbing as hard as I could and leaving my comfort zone every time I went climbing.

[nai]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

On the wider topic of the previous page's discussions, where I can see some sense in using aerobic activity training theory for the fitness side of long routes, trying to use that theory as any basis for training for bouldering would seem to be completely flawed. You wouldn't try and increase your deadlift by spending 80% of your time doing 50 reps at 10kg...

No not a priority and I'm not suggesting it should be, rather that use easier climbing to build skills and improve movement, etc.

And while I have seen a stidy that suggests lifting as heavy as possible isn't as important as liftong to failure, I'm sure there's a cut-off point to that at something like 10-12 reps rather than 50odd

[highrepute]

Nai, would you agree that whilst Aerocap work is important for those trying to develop fitness, it would be almost a complete waste of time (or at least a very low priority) for a time-short boulderer?

I usually do 5-10 mins to warm up and warm down. Find it very effective for this as I get very warm doing it. I half believe that it helps with recovery (?).

I think Lattice might still prescribe it for boulders. Something like a strong aerobic base will help you recover between goes and session allowing harder/more/more intense training sessions.

[highrepute]

but maybe need to try hard to get to the top of the motherboard one day. Surely it's possible.

This would be good training for Advanced Training. Similar angles, fingery and feet cut loose. It's easier to get to the top now they have LEDs lighting the way

[Murph]

I think Lattice might still prescribe it for boulders.

Yeah the 5:00 on / 5:00 off & 1:45 20-move circuit / 1:45 rest scenario was for a boulderer with a poor aerobic capacity looking to do a 16 move 8A.

16 moves though...that sounds like a route. Obviously the guy needed to get his stamina up. Proper boulder problems don't need any stamina.

Pinkles...fucksake...no wonder I've been stuck on the low 7s for the last two years.

[Nibile]

TTT, Tom, Yos: bunch of mofos. 
If you check some Power Club entries you'll find a few basket games thrown in. I got back into it thanks to a friend of mine, so far I've played four or five games, let's say once per month. It's very fun, but it really takes a lot of effort. I usually take a few days to recover, especially my glutes and hamstrings, but mostly my lower back.
I really miss not being phisically able to play as I liked to. Technique hasn't improved either in the last 25 years of not playing at all...

[cheque]

Do you mean basketball Nibs? We never abbreviate it over here- I think that's what confused TTT.

[Nibile]

Oh sorry! I didn't know it.
Yes, basketball.

[tommytwotone]

Oh sorry! I didn't know it.
Yes, basketball.

Aha - that's a shame though, I had pictured you performing some mega-hardcore weightlifting / wickerwork crossover type thing.

Despite being of more modest proportions I also used to play a fair bit of b-ball back in the day. Would love to get back into it but I suspect my overall fitness / hand-eye co-ordination have gone downhill a long way since!

[cheque]

We never abbreviate it

b-ball

 

[Yossarian]

Bit late this week...

STG - Continue shrinking, get stronger, press on with sandstone (re)apprenticeship
MTG - 7A / 7b+ / E3+
LTG - 8a, etc

Mon - Chimera. Good structured-ish session on the board. Tried to figure out some aerocap traverse routes, but tricky getting the intensity right.
Tues -  Statham megamix
Wed - Beastmaker - repeaters, inc the slopers which I’ve struggled with previously. Nice efficient session.
Thursday - Statham megamix
Friday - Beastmaker - ditto Wednesday
Saturday - Chimera. Started off with session on the board - took a while to get acclimatised, prob thanks to fingerboard the previous evening. Then had major breakthrough session on problems on the main walls. Suddenly found myself cruising problems that had felt desperate the week before. Overweight dad on fire, etc.
Sunday - Well-earned rest...

Weight: 97.3kg - 96.9kg

Good style still, despite being stuck indoors all week. Feeling substantially stronger than I was last year, and trying to focus on how much fun things might be if / when I lose another 10kg+. Achilles feels better too, so am going to try to reintroduce some more running.

[Yossarian]

Good syke even...

[Murph]

Achilles feels better too, so am going to try to reintroduce some more running.

A bit of unsolicited advice, but I had achilles problems last year and when I felt up to running again (no pain doing hop tests, or raising and lowering on one foot etc) I got back into it very steadily. It was initially one minute jog, one minute walk x3....then the next day two minutes jog, one minute walk x3 then three minutes, then 1k run one minute walk x 3.

Sounds super cautious but I had paid a lady to look at my ankle and tell me what to do to rehab. That’s what she said. I haven’t been injured since touch wood.

Good luck.

[Yossarian]

I went for a run before reading this! Was quite prepared to walk, but in the end it was ok. Having had a few weeks off and it being only my 3rd run on a hard surface since starting again, everything feels battered except that Achilles... Bizarre.

Far prefer running off-road, but getting there involves a drive, and running by the sea is not exactly unpleasant.

Having said that, I did feel pretty fatigued from a fairly intense session at the wall the previous day, and I subsequently felt not especially fresh at the wall the following day. Hopefully this effect will dissipate with some more running, otherwise I’ll get back on my bike.

Keen to do some rings training and get the one armer training going, but I think it’s probably sensible to save that till I’m a bit lighter. Daughter keeps nagging me about fitting a pull-up bar though - she seems even more syked than I am...

[csl]

This week

-3 sessions. 1 moonboard, 2 bouldering
- stretching x2 - fail
- try and sneak a day outside on saturday - snow stopped play

March

- 4 days out
- 2 Greens at The Arch - new goal, 4 Greens at the Arch
- stretching at least 2x a week

this year

7C
hands flat on floor with legs straight + various flexibility benchmarks

Weight: ~ 73.3kg

Monday

Moonboard
1 each from 6B+ to 7B

Thursday

Good session on boulders, did a green in a few goes. Good conditions at 1º

Friday

Did another green quite quickly. Plus tried a few others.

[duncan]

Galapinos & Duncan - great point...Trying really hard is certainly a massively important skill.

Robbie Phillips three days later

“Trying hard is a skill in itself”

[Murph]

Good share Duncan. And thanks Robbie. The weakest muscle is in the mind. Been thinking (and acting on it) a fair bit about it since this weeks good discussion.

Also saw this one today from the no more mystery thread, which is a different take on trying hard...

trying hard or the day my knee gave up

[teestub]

I was going to say, there’s a hair’s breadth between ‘last to try hard’ that Phillips seems to be extolling, and 6 months on no climbing with SLAP tear, ACL rupture/ A1-4 pulley rupture etc etc. Max efforts should be when you’re feeling fresh, and when your performance starts to drop off, or you start getting sloppy, it’s time to can that exercise for the day.

Who cares if you scraped your way up a moon board problem if you take yourself out of the game?

[measles23]

Good share Duncan. And thanks Robbie. The weakest muscle is in the mind. Been thinking (and acting on it) a fair bit about it since this weeks good discussion.

Also saw this one today from the no more mystery thread, which is a different take on trying hard...

trying hard or the day my knee gave up

Thoughts on trying:

I think worked bouldering is interesting in that while you’re working a problem you’re trying to find the easiest way of doing something so your mentality is looking for easy, but at some point you have to jack it up to “beast mode” and try hard for the ascent - I used to be quite bad at that, particularly finishing problems off post crux if there was ongoing trickiness (eg AT) so I deliberately worked on it indoors to develop the approach that post crux I was NOT coming off, and now I think I’m pretty good at trying hard, and having the “want” to finish something off.

Certainly when murph and I were working Advanced Training, murph looked so much more static and strong on it than I was, and was lapping the crux I don’t know how many times, while I just needed to slap my way through the crux once, and there was no way I was coming off - I think you’d need something harder than pinkles to train that degree of want though!

Can I be predictable and say there is absolutely no better way of training the desire to compete a difficult movement than a 1RM deadlift 

My DL strategy at the mo is the polar opposite to pinkles/junk mileage - I now only train singles, cycling the height and the number of singles per session..