[tommytwotone]

So after the Whitehouses thing, then Dave's article in Project Magazine, then the 3rd Rock thing, then the Almscliff thing...having spent a few weeks ill and mulling the thing over I've had an idea and thought I'd post it up here to gather opinion before I go too far down the line with it.


It feels to me like there needs to be a programme of basic education out there, going to the places where new climbers are starting up and offering to go through what good looks like / what is to be avoided when making the transition to outdoors. You will note I avoided the phrase "best practice", which I despise with a passion.


I would happily spend some time putting together a brief presentation, in conjunction with / alongside BMC (think it would be good to involve someone from BMC to ensure messages are factually correct and in line with policy / guidance or whatever) and anyone else who gives a flying one about this stuff.


I'm conscious of tone, i.e. it would need to be as non-preachy as possible, and more of a "learn how to get the best out of bouldering outdoors" or whatever, and most probably aimed primarily at new people, who have probably never been outdoors before. I think there is potential to make it look nice / be informative and vaguely entertaining as well.


I guess my next thought is where would I take it? Would it be something people would go to? How would it get publicised?


Off the top of my head, round here (Leeds / Bradford area) there are at least 5-10 walls within an hour's reach of my house - I'd happily travel to them, go through the thing with as many people as they can drum up.


Would the wall owners/staff on here think that would fly? Would it be falling on deaf ears or preaching to the converted?


My other thought was doing it as a Dan Turner style vlog thing that could be shared around instead / as well...


Apologies if this is all a bit vague, I've been seething about a few of the things I've seen on social media etc the last few weeks and rather than whinge from my armchair I think it that action may be the best course of...errr...action.


Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not post up in public but I am (despite the non-serious tone of a lot of my posts) serious about this.

[tomtom]

Great idea 3T. Sounds like something the BMC should support/help with? Thinking in particular of Gus/Grimers Dog behaviour video... Shark - you're the man on the inside?

[mrjonathanr]

Good effort.  Further BMC involvement in promoting crag behaviour as part of supporting transition from in to outdoors would be good.

[danm]

Doing something about this came up in discussion with Rob Dyer (BMC access dude) last week in the office, we were talking about posters for climbing walls and whether a "good practice when climbing outside" poster would be useful. I'll give him a nudge but I believe he's already working on it. Stuff like this has been done before, like the bouldering 10 commandments posters etc. A video might be a good idea as well. The big question really is that we can try lots of different things, but will they change peoples behaviour? The "no dogs" signs at Bamford are often ignored, for example. Got to be worth a shot though before we lose any more quality venues.

[Will Hunt]

Dan, something that came up in the Whitehouses thread which I thought was a good idea was getting the pad manufacturers to start putting a slip on crag etiquette (or whatever you want to call the instruction manual for not behaving like a dickhead) into the pads that they ship. It puts things under people's noses in a place that's difficult to ignore. I think posters at walls can only have a limited effect because there are so many things stuck on the wall at climbing wall.

[Oldmanmatt]

Seeing Ben’s “wall walking” post on Instagram and Duma’s Bovey parking post on Dartmoor Bouldering; we’ll be lucky if we can climb anywhere legally, soon.
So, yep, any good leaflets/posters etc, I’ll put them up at the wall.
Vlog? I have a redundant tv in the cafe, I’ll play it on a loop as long as you add subtitles.
Make a funny movies of it (Grimmer?) and you’ll get better results.

[highrepute]

Dan, something that came up in the Whitehouses thread which I thought was a good idea was getting the pad manufacturers to start putting a slip on crag etiquette (or whatever you want to call the instruction manual for not behaving like a dickhead) into the pads that they ship. It puts things under people's noses in a place that's difficult to ignore. I think posters at walls can only have a limited effect because there are so many things stuck on the wall at climbing wall.

I like this idea but maybe it would be better if it were climbing shops distributing the flyers. Which might work well with independent/climber owned shops who I imagine would be happy to get involved. but be more problematic with the Go Outdoors/Cotswolds/Decathlons of the world.

The cost could be large though, how many flyers would you need?

[Yossarian]

Surely the best way of doing something like this now would be across Twitter / Instagram / Facebook? Or at least, a majority of effort on those, backed up by some posters?

I’d be interested in getting involved in doing something illustrated. Possibly. The way I see it, its the kind of thing that relies on an an approach other than being dictatorial / don’t do this don’t do that.

[powderpuff]

Totally agree that more needs to be done to safe guard our crags.

All ideas mentioned so far in this post would have an impact in my humble opinion so why not pursue all of them.

I would be happy to approach my 2 local walls about putting posters up. Not sure I have the skill set to offer more support, other than politely challenging climbers who don't respect the crags when I'm out and about.

To give this campaign impact with younger climbers what is really need is an endorsement of a famous climber (cheesey but effective). I think that's what the 10 bouldering commandments poster lacked,
 it also alienated non Christian  climbers!

[gme]

Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff and despite years of that being drummed into peoples heads through tv campaigns, posters and booklets it still doesn't get followed. I dont think posters at walls would work.

In my opinion you just need to confront those who you see doing it. I know people dont like to do this but its the best way. Likewise with landowners you just need to go and talk through it and most, not all, are pretty cool.

There have been Problems at the Stell and kyloe in the county and i was quite taken aback with climbers reactions which were predominantly" fuck the toff landowners we have a right to do the fuck what we want when i have driven an hour to get here". In both cases the issues have been resolved by face to face discussions with the land owners.

I think bouldering has caused the problem to become more common as we have started climbing on some tiny lumps of rock that no one has ever looked at before and its often done on mass. Its a shame when we cant climb on something but maybe we just have to accept it sometimes.

[PipeSmoke]

Could approach companies such as moon, dmm and alpkit to put said flyers in with any bouldering pads sold ? Even the distributors for the other pads may be persauded

Sorry missed that it's already been said

[spidermonkey09]

I suspect flyers in pads will simply get immediately chucked away upon buying the pad, no?

[bigironhorse]

Some walls do beginners bouldering days or evenings out. Could be a good idea to make sure they are getting the message across about what is and isn't considered acceptable behaviour at the crag. As someone who was brought up in the outdoors this behaviour seems incredibly obvious to me but I guess if you've never been to the countryside and suddenly start going out bouldering you might be ignorant of the standard common sense practices.

[nai]

Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff

which is mostly just common sense and courtesy. 

Very tricky subject because people are basically selfish bastards when asked to inconvenience themselves, even when they know what they should do: no dogs doesn't apply to mine beacuse he's a good boy; not damaging walls doesnt apply because the path is muddy; I can climb even though it's wet because I drove for an hour.  You see someone else do something and assume it's ok to do it as well.

I'm a bit sceptical about this, I'm not sure lectures or leaflets or posters will work although obviously something needs to be done so it's something to try. 

Guess the question is who has influence on new/young/disrespectful climbers, who will they take notice of?  Is it folk who post instagram, facebook, youtube?  UKC?  These are possibly the outlets where the message will have an audience (whether it get across is another matter).

[galpinos]

Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff

It is, but I’m not sure everyone sees it like that. I started climbing via the old school walking leading into scrambling leading into climbing route. That’s probably not true for 95% of new boulderers. If your first exposure to bouldering is at the Depot in Manchester say, your perception is big groups, load music, lots of chalk and shouting encouragement. When you head outside for the first time, you and your group take those perceptions with you and transpose it to the countryside.

People don’t necessarily have an appreciation of the issue with access, noise pollution, visual pollution, crag etiquette etc (I’ve found myself using more chalk now than I ever used to and have to actively try to reign it in, whack holds instead of excessively brushing them etc). They also might not mind changing their behaviours, they might just need a push in the right direction.

I agree this needs to be a multi-faceted approach. BMC video pushed out across social media, playing on wall café TVs, posters, active engagement from walls with new customers, especially big new bouldering walls that are opening up bouldering to people more used to an urban environment. Consideration of others seems to be on the general decline (maybe I’m getting old but the yoof seem to be less inclined to consider their impact on others – e.g. tinny shite music from phone speakers on every street corner) so I think we (the climbing community) need to do something.

Well done TTT for starting the discussion. I’m quite happy to chip in and help.

[SA Chris]

I'm a bit sceptical about this, I'm not sure lectures or leaflets or posters will work although obviously something needs to be done so it's something to try. 

Doing something is always going to be better than doing nothing, just need to target it best. Even if it enlightens just a 1/4 (or 1/10) of people climbing outside, it's better than nothing.

[Yossarian]

The message needs to resonate with the crush everything, fist bump, YOLO brigade. It’s not easy...

People who are fed a diet of YouTube videos of their heroes turning up at crags and crushing / #vanlife / bushshit, etc will want to emulate that.

A polite piece of paper isn’t going to change very much.

I agree that the message would be more potent if it came from the influencers.

[highrepute]

I agree this needs to be a multi-faceted approach. BMC video pushed out across social media, playing on wall café TVs, posters, active engagement from walls with new customers, especially big new bouldering walls that are opening up bouldering to people more used to an urban environment.
[...]
I think we (the climbing community) need to do something.

I agree, there's no single solution.

And the argument that we've been having these discussions for years and nothings changed is not helpful. Probably the previous discussions, 10 commandments  posters etc did have an effect. But times change and posters need updating and supplementing with social media and the like now. This isn't  something we do now to fix forever it's on going drive that will continue for as long as people go climbing.

Climbers as a community are doing things. Dan's Vlog, #respecttherock, @chosscollective , bmc videos, ukc articles, indoors to outdoors courses etc

But we can always do more. It's  good that this discussion is taking place. This thread is good place to have a discussion and any suggestions are welcome.

Although it feels a bit bureaucratic I think a set of guidelines, produced by the BMC, that makes suggestion about how this problem can be tackled. I.e. what can walls do, what can the bmc do, what can shops do, what can suppliers/manufacturers do, what can individuals do.... would be a useful start. Perhaps that already exists?

[nai]

Ok, here goes.
I'll suggest that what influences new climbers, and probably young climbs most is social media and that would be the way to engage them.

So the BMC  (in conjunction with?) produce a series of 5-10s videos about the issues which relate to normal life. E.g. A group of climbers driving down an urban street looking for a parking space, they pull into a gap and start unloading pads as the owner of the drive they've just blocked jumps out of his car and starts to remonstrate in the background. The scene transforms to the same scene in front of a gate with a farmer now in the background. Then the tagline something like "you wouldn't block a drive so why would you a gate?".Think before you park.

BMC gets brands on board who get their athletes to use the videos as an intro to their promo vids or just to post them occasionally when they see an example of bad behaviour at a crag.
Also identify (I hate to use this term) British climbings biggest "social influencers" and get them to do the same.  And of course anyone else could sign up to the campaign and do the same.
Videos need to be short not to exceed attention span and so folk aren't tempted to forward through them.

[mrjonathanr]

Mountain Training should integrate this into assessments for indoor quals such as CWA as well as outdoor where most candidates will already have a clue.

[T_B]

Brands sponsoring the influencers could have a credit system, whereby the sponsored heroes get points and rewards for continually pushing home the message across their SM platforms.

Climbers should support these brands.

We're a long way off that when the likes of Nalle basically brags about how many long haul flights he takes a year!

Posters? Really?

[nai]

Ooh and for every video of bad behaviour one of some wads demonstrating correct behaviour, no we can't park there because.... we'll have to go elsewhere and walk a bit further.

[teestub]

We're a long way off that when the likes of Nalle basically brags about how many long haul flights he takes a year!

Bit tight, he does a lot to publicise the font clean ups when they come around and it pretty good at warnings not to climb at Red Rocks after rain etc. Carbon footprint issues are not the same as access issues!

[highrepute]

So the BMC  (in conjunction with?) produce a series of 5-10s videos about the issues which relate to normal life. E.g. A group of climbers driving down an urban street looking for a parking space, they pull into a gap and start unloading pads as the owner of the drive they've just blocked jumps out of his car and starts to remonstrate in the background. The scene transforms to the same scene in front of a gate with a farmer now in the background. Then the tagline something like "you wouldn't block a drive so why would you a gate?".Think before you park.

 

[petejh]

Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.