[Will Hunt]

Does this start up Velveteen Rabbit, an independent start, or a start up Hoodoo Guru?
Thanks in advance.

[moose]

I think Angel Heat and Hoodoo share a choice of two starts, both to the right of Velveteen Rabbit.  The left was the original but broke, so a new one was adopted; then the original was restored.  The left is meant to be harder, the right better.  Extract from the dedicared mini guide:

8 Angel Heart 16m F7c/7c+ *
The blunt arête above the start of Hoodoo Guru leads to the final ramp of Angel Dust. The grade depends on which of the two starts is used and how direct one climbs - although it is pretty tough for a move or few!

9 Hoodoo Guru 16m F7b **
Recently repaired to re-establish this route. It now has two possible starts both of which gain the obvious flat hold.
The original on the left is the hardest but the right-hand perhaps best. Steep moves lead to the roof and up right to
gain the obvious corner of Angel Dust which is follow to its resting place. Reach out right to the diagonal overlap that leads to a steep finish. Bolt belay shared with Cold Turkey.

[Smith42]

FWIW I did the first ascent of Angel Heart way back.  We started at Velveteen Rabbit, traversing right until we could make hard moves up to the undercuts.

Incidentally this was a consolation prize as we were trying the line of VR.  When we couldn't climb VR we escaped to the arete from the small under cut, this has since been claimed as Moddey Dhoo. 

Cos we wanted to keep the VR line as a project we never publicized this ascent and added a different start to the arete which we called Angel Heart.
   

[nik at work]

And I did Moddey Dhoo unaware of all this

Angel Heart was originally given 8a wasn't it? Which if it is actually the line of Moddey Dhoo seems fair (or a smidge harsh). It's certainly a fair bit harder than the start to the right.

I did Moddey Dhoo for exactly the same reason you dud Angel Heart. Crome could do 'the move' on the direct and I couldn't (it's a fair pull).

[Will Hunt]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm trying to work out what's what for the new guide, so I really want the info to be right.

FWIW I did the first ascent of Angel Heart way back.  We started at Velveteen Rabbit, traversing right until we could make hard moves up to the undercuts.

Incidentally this was a consolation prize as we were trying the line of VR.  When we couldn't climb VR we escaped to the arete from the small under cut, this has since been claimed as Moddey Dhoo. 

Ah, OK. Nik has a vid of Moddey here:


Is this what you did then?

Cos we wanted to keep the VR line as a project we never publicized this ascent and added a different start to the arete which we called Angel Heart.

From Paul, Dave and Nigel's online guide, it sounds like HG has two starts. Presumably the start you describe here is the same as HG's left hand start, but that the two starts can be used interchangeably for both routes. This would align with what Moose described above.


From this info it sounds like the FA of Moddey Dhoo should really be attributed to Paul Smith (sorry, Nik).

[uptown]

I don't see how AH could have been climbed as MD, mainly due to the lack of bolts.
When I bolted VR there were no old bolts in it, apart from Mick Ryans project to the left, which I believe James Ibbertson was trying.
MD is pretty hard and sustained to climb without bolts non?
Maybe AH came across lower

[nik at work]

Uptown launches a cat grenade on the pigeons

I did think that it wasn't bolted before I did MD (or is it AH?) and you did VR, but couldn't 100% remember.

It's a relatively minor link up Will so I wouldn't go expending too much energy on an extensive investigation if I were you.
If Paul Smith says he climbed the line that's fine by me.

[uptown]

No grenade intended chaps 
I just assumed that sport routes tend to follow the bolt lines.
I put 3 or 4 bolts in VR up to where Nik traversed out right from it for MD.
Fwiw, poor vimeo failure of VR here if anyone fancies grabbing beta for a 2nd ascent?

[Smith42]

Just watched the two videos, yes we climbed the line of MD.  The original bolts in VR were 8mm hand drilled, before my time by Iain or Simon when they put the 8mm bolts in Cold Turkey and the White Zone.  I started climbing with both of them in the early 90s and they showed me the project at some point thereafter. The 8mm bolts always worried me as they looked corrorded to me even back then so i almost always worked the route on a top rope from the tree.
I put some SS 10mm stud bolts up the arete and later at the start but didnt replace any bolts on the VR line. 
To answer the orginal question, we strarted up VR and traversed right from the big pocket shown in the VR video at 5 seconds.
 

[Ru]

I have no interest in this apart from that I might go and try these this summer. I'm still confused though.

Just watched the two videos, yes we climbed the line of MD.

To answer the orginal question, we strarted up VR and traversed right from the big pocket shown in the VR video at 5 seconds.

MD looks to traverse right about 8-10ft higher than the big pocket. So if AH originally traversed right from the big pocket it's a different line, no?

[Smith42]

Not sure why you are confused?
The original post was where does AH start.  It starts at same point as VR and moves right.

MD climbs up then moves right.