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Performance Enhancement... (Read 10284 times)

Fultonius

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Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 05:29:14 pm
Difficult subject, but for non-competition climbers the temptation must be pretty high. Any well known examples? No witch hunts please!!

What would be the substance of choice?  Roids would be too bulking, no?   I know the golden age of alpinism was well aided by "heart vials" - amphetamines? 

kelvin

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#1 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 07:00:36 pm
I think I can safely say ketamine might be the daftest choice.

Fultonius

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#2 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 07:16:07 pm
I know a few strong lads who seemed to climb quite well after a weekend long MDMA & coke bender....no idea how that works!

moose

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#3 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 07:58:25 pm
I know a few strong lads who seemed to climb quite well after a weekend long MDMA & coke bender....no idea how that works!

I can't imagine they were eating much... think of the power to weight ratio!  Also, coke, mixed with opium / heroin, speed, and caffeine, known as the "pot Belge", was used by cyclists in the 20-30s - reduce pain and any sensation of fatigue - push through the warning signs of iminent collapse.  More recently (possibly still) I recall reading about amphetimes being used to assist winter training - riding "lit up" to cope with the cold and fatigue of Pyrenean training climbs.  I imagine similar might be useful for climbing where ability to cope with misery and tiredness is key - alpinism etc.

Maybe EPO would be useful for those enduro types who need lots of red blood cells - lovers of long sport routes and trad / alpinism.  Insulin, creatine, and HGH would presumably help for losing fat and gaining lean muscle during training cycles?  Given the likely lack of stringent testing (can't imagine must carbon isotope testing etc is done in the climbing circuit), if a nation took success in climbing very seriously, I suspect its coaches would be very tempted to juice their proteges

Footwork

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#4 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 08:11:50 pm
someone who used to live in Spain said the spanish there would inject themselves. Maybe roids or something?

moose

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#5 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 08:18:44 pm
or possibly EPO, or maybe just vitamins, or possibly they were diabetics legitimately taking insulin!

webbo

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#6 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 08:23:07 pm
I remember reading that Pot Belge and its Dutch and French equivalents were still being used in the 80's.

alx

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#7 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 09:51:48 pm
EPO comes with big risks of stroke. My bet would be Thyroxine, boost your metabolism and lose weight.

Given Nalle, Woods and Webb et al always seem to be stoned when I have met them in SA I would say cannabis may help with keeping calm. 

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#8 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 09:58:29 pm
HGH seemed to (allegedly) work pretty well for Flo-Jo. Everything I’ve heard about the “blood-doping” that cyclists get up to suggests it would be highly effective for endurance climbing too. Not sure how the Jamie Vardy approach would translate to climbing but it does have the advantage of being totally legal  ;).

I had an interesting conversation with a then-pro US climber five years ago who told me that the only US pros who didn’t either have a trust fund or use performance-enhancing drugs were himself and one other.

I didn’t (and still don’t) believe him but it was a bit of an eye-opener- I’d never considered that anyone in rock climbing would consider drugs but then I didn’t think anyone would lie about ascents ‘til the Rich Simpson business either. There must be some people doing it but it can’t feel great to know that you cheated.

Fultonius

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#9 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 29, 2017, 10:40:25 pm
I can't imagine Vardy's heart will be liking his "diet" much. And if he's anything like half the other pro footballers, the coke won't help much either ;-)

moose

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#10 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 07:48:08 am
EPO comes with big risks of stroke. My bet would be Thyroxine, boost your metabolism and lose weight.

Wasn't that in the early 90s when people were using such huge doses that their blood got too "sticky".  There were tales of cyclists having to sleep wearing heart monitors to alert them to the need to get on the turbo trainer for a bit to get the blood back moving!

These days I think EPO is micro-dosed - taken in small quantities that are metabolised below detectable limits within a couple of hours.  Unless the athlete is very unlucky with when the doping control officers arrive, they can then get away with their regime (and even then, they might delay until the "glow period" elapses - get "accidentally" locked in the toilet etc!).

Nibile

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#11 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 07:52:45 am
In sport climbing I don't think Epo would be very useful, considering that it should be mainly targeted to the forearms, that are small muscles after all. But it could help of course.
I read an article on Vertical years ago on this subject.
The choice was towards any anorexia-inducing drug, to reduce weight, and cocaine also.
Other - very useful and legal - stuff is Aspirine and the likes, because of the effects on blood flow and density.
And diuretics, to get light before a redpoint. Big risk of blowing a tendon though.
Anabolic stuff was considered too dangerous for the risk of bulking, but especially for the risk of tendon ruptures.

I have met over the years a few subjects that clearly were "juiced". The exterior signs are so clear that you don't even have to test them. People in their fourties or fifties that made me look obese, with veins like the transiberian oil duct and a muscle quality that you won't see in a million regular gym goers... Plus, acne, a specific shape of he hands due to acromegalia, a yellow rim in the cornea, etc. etc.
I spent an entire day climbing with one of them and he didn't eat anything for the whole day, and he basically didn't eat for dinner...

Sarnian

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#12 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 01:09:41 pm
I have no doubt that anyone who wanted to take PED's on the comp scene could away with it easily, I think the question is more how useful they would be. There's a new netflix documentary called Icarus which shows how easily they get around olympic level testing. The most rigorous testing actually happens in the UFC, and they mostly catch people by doing random testing throughout the year, like showing up at your house at 6am on Christmas day.

I think a common misconception is PED's just make you bigger and stronger, but actually testosterone and human growth hormone allow you to recover faster and train harder, so I can imagine the real gain would be from being able to train hard multiple days in a row. I think you could do it without gaining muscle mass. When I train a lot I find the limiting factor or the area I'm most likely to be injured is my tendons/ fingers and I have no clue whether PED's would help heal tendons; although one of the listed symptoms is carpal tunnel syndrome.

I find it interesting what is classed as cheating and what isn't. Sleeping in an altitude replicating tent has similar benefits to taking EPO, but as soon as something has to be injected or has a deemed health risk it becomes illegal. Tiger Woods has had eye surgery to perfect his vision. Currently with some testing organisations you're allowed to take PEDs drugs if it's for recovery, such as testosterone if you are tested to have medically low levels. My hunch is that the future of sporting performance/climbing is going to be to those who can afford stem cell recovery. I'd train a lot harder and crank on monos all day long if I knew I could get an injection to make my finger that goes bang heal super quick.


bigironhorse

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#13 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 01:30:32 pm
Currently with some testing organisations you're allowed to take PEDs drugs if it's for recovery, such as testosterone if you are tested to have medically low levels.


I wonder how they are actually measuring the testosterone? I don't know about testosterone but immunoassays (which I think are used in healthcare) for other steroids such as cortisol are ropey at best compared to mass spec approaches.

jimpopeonarope

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#14 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 02:18:26 pm
Ive heard of some climbers taking beta blockers to stop the effects of adrenaline to keep calm before sends/scary routes. Anyone seen the documentary 'Icarus'? Hard to think the Russians aren't doping in all sports after watching that!

Tommy

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#15 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 03:21:13 pm
I'll give my experience and take on what I've seen and heard in both the coaching world and also the "professional" climbing world.

PEDs - I've come across barely a single consistent mention of it anywhere. Not even a proper hint really. Some really vague stuff from Spain in the sport climbers, plenty of spliff smoking by the Yanks (but is it really useful??) and a few people who've tried Beta-blockers with various success (but prob placebo anyway). I'd have said that more rumours would creep up in drunk conversations if it was really going on that much as you get to hear all sorts of incredibly embarrassing/contraversial stuff in these situations yet the drugs think never arises.

Climbers on Trust funds (or Bank of Mum and Dad) - this is a bit more common than people think, especially in the US. More people with essentially the capacity to go full time climbing without any financial responsibility. Doesn't really take away from what they achieved, but it did help them go full time in the early years... also met plenty of US climbers who think a UK climber on $10K's worth of retainer is getting seriously ripped off. Funny really!

Steroids - I've been offered them straight up just once in 20yrs of climbing. Perhaps not surprisingly, it was from a S&C coach who'd previously worked quite a bit with another well known UK climber who I always thought was "a bit interesting" as their training didn't always make sense to me. On a personal note I wouldn't have a blooming' clue what to do with steroids if I was to take them and I still think that most climbers (even at the top end) wouldn't be prepared to take the risk with their own performance as there's no set cheating path to follow...

That's my experience anyway!



petejh

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#16 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 05:56:54 pm
Some that I'm aware of which might directly or indirectly enhance climbing performance, all 'legal' so not the shady side of 'PED':

Beta Alanine - may lead to increased carnosine, buffer lactic, increased anaerobic performance.
Concentrated beetroot juice - may lead to increased nitric oxide levels, increased aerobic performance.
Yohimbe - may help fat loss while preserving lean muscle mass, powerful stimulant, improved focus but may heighten anxiety, increased NO levels, (and.. ahem..!)
Citrulline Malate - may help increase NO, increased aerobic endurance, increased anaerobic endurance, improved recycling of lactate, improved recovery.
Creatine - may increase ATP, increased power output.
Caffeine - may increase aerobic endurance, stimulant
Water!

Examine.com


Climbers on Trust funds (or Bank of Mum and Dad) - this is a bit more common than people think, especially in the US. More people with essentially the capacity to go full time climbing without any financial responsibility. Doesn't really take away from what they achieved, but it did help them go full time in the early years...


Performance Enhancing Dad..


I think it's not 'that' unusual in the UK too. Johnny Dawes being a high-profile example from the 80s/90s. Other, more recent, examples no doubt.. it's that type of activity/lifestyle.


mrjonathanr

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#17 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 07:04:27 pm

I think a common misconception is PED's just make you bigger and stronger, but actually testosterone and human growth hormone allow you to recover faster and train harder, so I can imagine the real gain would be from being able to train hard multiple days in a row.


That's exactly it as I understand it,  the training makes you bigger and stronger,  the drugs just massively compress recovery time allowing for far more training to take place.

Sarnian

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#18 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 08:01:48 pm
Beta Alanine - I've tried this, didn't really notice much difference but I was just climbing outdoors so not a fair trial. I do know some Wads who take it though.
 
Concentrated beetroot juice - I've not tried the concentrated, but I am a big advocate of beetroot juice (you can buy it in big supermarkets). There are studies showing big improvements for running and cycling. Even if it's a placebo effect, it's a good form for a placebo as it makes the stuff that comes out of you bright pink, so you're like 'whoaa it's working'. No idea where this ridiculous claim comes from but I've also heard that Ethan Pringle attributes his ascent of jumbo love to beetroot juice!

Citrulline Malate - I've not tried this but I think it's aiming to get the similar NO effects of beetroot juice, but from what I've heard on podcasts it's not as effective as beetroot juice because it lacks antioxidants required for processing the NO.

Creatine - I find it gives me a similar effect to caffeine. It's often mentioned that it affects some peoples kidneys but I recently read on forums (very anecdotal) that it can cause carpal tunnel syndrome. I don't care about my kidneys but I will no longer take it for my precious tendons sake.

Water! - not very good, makes you heavy.

/quote]

Probably the biggest PED in climbing since chalk is Antihydral.

Sarnian

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#19 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 08:03:18 pm
Oops sorry I was supposed to delete the quote marks on the above post.

Tommy

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#20 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 09:21:17 pm

Climbers on Trust funds (or Bank of Mum and Dad) - this is a bit more common than people think, especially in the US. More people with essentially the capacity to go full time climbing without any financial responsibility. Doesn't really take away from what they achieved, but it did help them go full time in the early years...


Performance Enhancing Dad..


I think it's not 'that' unusual in the UK too. Johnny Dawes being a high-profile example from the 80s/90s. Other, more recent, examples no doubt.. it's that type of activity/lifestyle.

I'm not sure .... I mean, if we have to use JD as an example from a window of 30-40 yrs seems like there aren't that many?! It feels a bit personal to name names on the "silver spoon" side, but honestly I can't think of hardly anyone in the UK. Everyone seems pretty normal and is either working hard (or worked hard) or getting by on the minimum! Maybe I just notice the hard workers more as I respect that.

Caff, Pearson, Bransby, Whittaker, Pasquill, Findlay, McClure, MacLeod, Birkett.... etc etc.... I think they had it fair and square. Maybe it's just the people I see or talk to, but I hardly ever come across a semi-pro or professional climber in the UK and think "lucky bugger" they got a nice head start....


moose

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#21 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 30, 2017, 09:39:43 pm
 + 1 agree

My own experience is admittedly of 8aish pluggers around Malham /Kilnsey, but there are no trust-fundees amidst them - just people on short-term contracts, living in vans and wondering if they should purchase a pension.  Whilst mooching around Spain on my twice-a-year holidays, I encounter lots of folk on extended van trips, but they are never trust-fund types, rather itinerants / or people in trades where you can earn a lot, last, and then bugger off to Thailand.

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#22 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 31, 2017, 08:19:00 am
My comment was only about North America. US GDP per capita is ~40% higher than the UK so it shouldn't be surprising that symptoms of wealth, like young people with no pressure to work, are more common.

Am I the only one who has absolutely no problem with this?

In fact, I am available for adoption...

Considering how some wealthy brats turn out, I commend their lifestyle choice.

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#23 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 31, 2017, 09:00:40 am
Plenty of American trustafarians at Ceuse when we went there, doing a whole updated 1920s Americans in Paris and Spain thing. Gilded Age innit? The over entitled little shits even brought their copies of Ayn Rand to the crag. Still, I guess that helped them learn that the English are not always reticent.

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#24 Re: Performance Enhancement...
October 31, 2017, 09:11:26 am
There's a known link between using steroids and having tendon problems. Which wouldn't be ideal for climbers.

 

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