[ghisino]

little climbing psychology question.

My gf, as many intermediate climbers, is severely held back by her fear of falling, to the point she can toprope-redpoint some 7a's, but will have a horrible time leading most 6a's indoors (and 5c's outdoors)

She seems really pissed about it and knows about the falling drills solution, need to lead climb more, and that all of this can be a long process that works best on a "daily routine" basis...

The problem is, it is really hard for her to routinely practice such "unpleasant" situations at small intensity/high volume...she'd rather take a couple of "scary" falls or a try relatively bold lead once every ten sessions, when the stars are aligned correctly, which is useless (or even counter productive...as it may feed a belief that she can be brave enough on a good day)

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers

[Muenchener]

Nothing constructive to add except that I recently fell off a 6a pitch - first time ever, go me! - on an exposed multipitch route, and I feel like that might have done more for my head than any amount of jumping off a climbing wall.

[Paul B]

My better half is now a complete loon very confident when it comes to falling off sport-routes. This year she spent a fair bit of time on the Ashes and was happy lobbing off the final section 'ground up' but it hasn't always been this way and she's definitely chosen to TR things at inopportune moments (i.e. completely impractical routes). Personally, I think getting to the point where you can TR redpoint something is a bit nuts (couldn't that've been the lead go?) and I'd be aiming to be on RP much earlier than that as it helps iron out missing sequences / clipping & even little things like where the rope is in relation to yourself and the key foothold you use on the crux.

The LHS of Malham/Kilnsey lend themselves well to TRing to work routes but I genuinely can't think of many other places where this is the case (additional rope stretch, steepness all play a part in making this a royal PITA) and I think that's the habit to break.

I had a similar experience to Muenchener and ended up a bit over-confident on my return to the UK, i.e. forgetting the much kinder spacing!

I used to think an 'exposure' therapy type approach worked well for these kind of things but these days I'm less convinced and feel my head is directly linked to time on rock and how prepared I am for the given situation (be it trad or sport) and is adversely affected by any outside influences (primarily work; this is also true for my motivation). Doing something mentally taxing doesn't seem to work well for me if I've had a bad day at the office.

[cheque]

She needs to understand that the only thing that reduces the scariness of falling is having it happen regularly. Every sport/ indoor climbing session she has without falling reinforces the idea that falls are unpleasant, particularly if she top-ropes.

I speak from experience as I'm prone to being scared of falling (sometimes pathetically so) and it really holds me back. I made good progress this summer by setting myself two rules; fall (or jump) off at least once per session and never toprope. The more I stuck to them the better I climbed.

I used to say that taking deliberate practice falls was pointless but I think I was just saying that 'cos I didn't want to do it. This summer I had a project that I was absolutely terrified of falling on (probably due to originally working it on toprope a couple of years ago when it was just too hard for me) and a session repeatedly jumping off from all the scariest points of it made me relax to the extent that I improved my beta for three different sections, found a new rest and did it next session.

If your girl's like me then she's very good at coming up with rational-sounding arguments for why she shouldn't lead or shouldn't try hard enuogh to risk taking a proper fall. You try them out on your partner and when they agree (they of course don't care whether you cheat yourself or not- not enough to properly argue about it anyway) you feel justified in being a wimp. It's only driving home that you regret it. I feel so happy driving home when I've tried hard and taken proper falls even if I was successful on the routes and, believe it or not, it's that rather than the desire to succeed that I use to motivate myself to be brave...

[user deactivated]

I don't think falling drills work. You're better off trying hard above your bolt / kit and falling in extremis.

[Muenchener]

I used to say that taking deliberate practice falls was pointless but I think I was just saying that 'cos I didn't want to do it. This summer I had a project that I was absolutely terrified of falling on (probably due to originally working it on toprope a couple of years ago when it was just too hard for me) and a session repeatedly jumping off from all the scariest points of it made me relax to the extent that I improved my beta for three different sections, found a new rest and did it next session.

I think the specificity is key. I find jumping off the spot where I'm scared on a project far more useful than generic jumping off a climbing wall. Although I don't do enough of either really. And actual falling is better still.

[Fiend]

If you're someone who suffers from lack of confidence, commitment inhibitions, fear of falling etc, then falling drills can not only work but be massively important  (to the point of being essential) and progressive. Anyone who doesn't think so very likely doesn't understand what it's like to hugely held back by those issues.

The problem is, it is really hard for her to routinely practice such "unpleasant" situations at small intensity/high volume...she'd rather take a couple of "scary" falls or a try relatively bold lead once every ten sessions, when the stars are aligned correctly, which is useless (or even counter productive...as it may feed a belief that she can be brave enough on a good day)

That is indeed a problem for the reasons you mention. It's very unlikely to be actually progressing with the issue.

Why is it really hard for her?? In terms of the thread title, the motivation is: it will be tackling real issues with her climbing and will almost certainly work. Even if it's really hard that could be motivation enough??

The only thing I can think is start the drills as per the Arno's Espresso Lessons, i.e. start falling practise with bouncing on top-rope, falling on top-rope with some slack, slumping onto a lead rope level with a bolt, 1' falls etc etc etc. He highlights very clearly how important it is to build up and gently expand the comfort zone.


Edit: even writing this post has got me more motivated for falling practise lol.

[thekettle]

I think taking practice falls is certainly a good thing, as long as the 'graduated exposure' process is followed: Take regular falls that feel mildy exciting (think butterfiles) rather than negative and gripping (feelings of dread beforehand). I usually suggest aiming for a 3 out of 10 on the climbers internal 'fear scale', 1 being totally relaxed, 10 being panic. What size of fall comprises a 3/10 is not important, and with practice that size fall will become a 2/10, then it's time to lengthen it to achieve 3/10 again. Bear in mind some folks find falls higher up, or on steeper walls much scarier than others, so they need to adjust the fall size as they ascend, to still achieve 3/10's.
The other approach is to learn to relax above bolts/gear, and trust your hands/feet for security rather that the feeling of a tight rope. This is where top-ropes are really unhelpful. They reinforce a physical association between upward tension (from the rope) and security. This can then lead to bolt-led climbing, fixating on getting runners in, clipping early etc. All unhelpfully stealing mental attention from the real issue of moving well between the holds.
Leading up and down indoors (on rainbow or super easy ground) can be good for tackling this, as it repeatedly puts you in a 'runout' position whilst on non-threatening holds.
And finally, coaching your partner is very hard - good luck!

[seankenny]

I had a similar problem with my head being a bit rubbish, got frustrated with myself and basically followed something similar to what Mr Kettle describes very well above. I can say it totally works, yes there is a difference between "real" falling off on lead and throwing yourself off, and yes there is a difference between the climbing wall and the crag. All those differences can be deal with in exactly the same way - gradual exposure to the scary thing.

However, as Dave Mac says, you've got to do it a  lot. Starting around this time of year, I gave myself a goal of something like 300 falls before Xmas, and once a week I'd go to the wall and throw myself off 10 or 15 times or whatever. I was pretty anal about logging them too, somewhere in my filofax there is a lot of little five bar gates from that time! I can't remember if I reached the 300 within the timescale but I know I've taken hundreds and hundreds of falls since then and I'm much calmer about it (but not all the time, still work to do). I think you've got to make the target number pretty big, it's no use saying you'll do 20 because you'll do that in a week or two and go back to old habits. It gets easier quite quickly but that long plateau when it's "sort of okay" is the killer that you have to break through, because you don't want it to be sort of okay, you want it to be casual.

I'm afraid I can offer no insight into the motivation issue tho! You just have to want to be able to fall off I suppose. I've heard a few people say "oh I should practice some falling" and then never do it. Perhaps fall practice is to climbing as dieting is to the overweight?

[Nibile]

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers

What's going on: she hates you, or she's cheating on you, or she is going to dump you, or all the above.
Solution: quit. Or get her into bouldering.
You're welcome.
 

[bendavison]

For me, falling drills didn't help. Doing lots of volume in terrain I was comfortable in did though - I found that I naturally increased the level I was happy to lead at.

[ghisino]

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers

What's going on: she hates you, or she's cheating on you, or she is going to dump you, or all the above.
Solution: quit. Or get her into bouldering.
You're welcome.
 

haha.

brilliant side thinking lore. i have only 3 issues:
1) she fractured her talus bouldering in 2014
2)i just moved to an area rich in roped climbs and poor in bouldering
3) the scariest: i'm temporarily staying at her mothers' place!!!

[Paul B]

For me, falling drills didn't help. Doing lots of volume in terrain I was comfortable in did though - I found that I naturally increased the level I was happy to lead at.

You mean you pushed the problem up a few grades 

[SimonB]

The motivation has to come from her, you can tell her why she should do something and why its rational until your blue in the face.

Does she climb with other people besides you? Its easy to be scared and back off when your with your partner than others.

[jwi]

You mean you pushed the problem up a few grades 

This, for me it's definitely this.

Lots of people don't have a problem when they go all out on RPs, or try onsights so well within the abilities that they can tell if they're going to fall or not. But when there are many on-off moves in a row and the bolts are spaced, then you can tell who are comfortable falling and who are not...

[Wil]

...when there are many on-off moves in a row and the bolts are spaced, then you can tell who are comfortable falling and who are not...

This is me. If I can see an endpoint where I'll be able to stand in balance, or a good jug then I'm happy to wobble my way through some insecure sequences. I'm not happy if I'm off balance while I'm clipping, or if I feel that I'm going to struggle with the next clip/gear. Generally on redpoint it isn't such a problem for me because I know what's coming and how long I'll have to focus for, but onsight it can be a big factor and make me climb badly, exacerbating the problem.

[Sarnian]

I do quite a lot of fall practice and it's helped me loads. If I'm on a trip I try and get into a habit of doing it every session as my warm up if there's a suitable route (not a slab full of ledges). It's a good way to warm up as you get to do the route twice and it's also good dynamic belay practice for my belayer.

I like to start off really gently by falling off with the second bolt clipped above me, and then falling off at every bolt as I go up but increasing the distance slightly each time. I put no pressure on myself that I have to be taking a huge whipper at the top, if I'm still falling just above the bolt by the end that's fine too but I can usually jump off a typical bolt distance by the end without much fear.

If your gf is lighter than you then giving a soft catch is super important, the best trick I've learnt is to crouch down ready to jump. Belay glasses make it harder to get the timing right.

[highrepute]

The motivation has to come from her, you can tell her why she should do something and why its rational until your blue in the face.

Does she climb with other people besides you? Its easy to be scared and back off when your with your partner than others.

These are both key issues i think.

If she doesn't really want to lead harder and therefor doesn't have a strong need to overcome her fear then it'll be very hard for her to do the fall practice.

On this front reading something like "The Rock Warrior's Way" or "Espresso Lessons" (as mentioned by fiend) might be useful. Certainly I found it useful it tackling my ego and motivations.

[Fultonius]

My lass has a fear of falling, so generally doesn't. Weirdly, she pretty much started off lead climbing (didn't see the point in top roping) so actually is quite comfortable askng as she's not having to make hard moves above a bolt. She leads around 6b on a good day, but dienst top rope any harder - strangely she cannot push herself even on TR...

I've suggested falling practise, but as others have said, it's difficult to encourage a partner to do something unpleasant. The motivation has to be internal.

I've noticed the best motivation is  for them to inb with other people who are:

At a similar level to them, or just above.
Not afraid of falling, or actively practising falling (even better).

Or,

Pay for a coaching session. Good advice from a coach, even when it's *exactly* the same advice you've just given, is usually well received.

My fear of falling disappeared when I took an 8m whipper onto a small grey bd camalot on the big zipper at Dumby, when my hand slipped off the final wet hold.

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[ghisino]

thanks everyone, i think i may just print the thread :D.

a part of the issue i wasn't thinking of is that, fear apart, she has a low tolerance for "ego-painful" experiences.

one example: most of her routine climbing is on a short wall, bouldery routes, close to vertical.

when we visit a longer and steeper wall with a very specific endurance style on rounded holds, she obviously gets pumped out of her mind, on grades she considers warmups. it is hard to accept for her and doesn't motivate her to train on that style more often, but rather to end the "wrong" session...

[grimer]

The thing about fall-training, I have found, is the belayer.

Sometimes at the wall when I fall, the belayer still does that thing of trying to reduce the length of fall by pulling in the rope. And these are often really experienced climbers I'm with. And I say, but I think belaying properly takes as much training as falling. It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

[Paul B]

It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Find a waif to belay you and if the catch still isn't soft enough then introduce a roller. They won't know what hit them (apart from perhaps the rock near the 1st bolt).

[Oldmanmatt]

It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Find a waif to belay you and if the catch still isn't soft enough then introduce a roller. They won't know what hit them (apart from perhaps the rock near the 1st bolt).

TobyD (<60kg) did this for me (currently 83kg) on Empire a couple of weeks ago, when I lobbed off at the second clip.

Was a really soft catch until his head hit my arse at something approximating the speed of sound...

Yesterday at Torbryan, he was clipping into the ground to avoid further intimate encounters.

[user deactivated]

It's be interesting to see some non anecdotal evidence of falling drills working. Falling drills are undertaken in a controlled way where the climber is most likely sure they're not going to hurt themselves, as oposssc to being at the crag etc where the climber is going to be fearful of injury. If the you had the thought going above your kit 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' then there'd be no need for falling practice. It's a perceptual control thing

[Muenchener]

That's why I like to go for specificity: hopping off the crux of a project a few times so I can think "well I know nothing bad happens if I fall off here"

[TobyD]

It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Find a waif to belay you and if the catch still isn't soft enough then introduce a roller. They won't know what hit them (apart from perhaps the rock near the 1st bolt).

TobyD (<60kg) did this for me (currently 83kg) on Empire a couple of weeks ago, when I lobbed off at the second clip.

Was a really soft catch until his head hit my arse at something approximating the speed of sound...

Yesterday at Torbryan, he was clipping into the ground to avoid further intimate encounters.

Currently doing my best to get fatter, just so I can belay you safely Matt. 

But I think you have to fall off trying properly and preferably unexpectedly as well. (In a safe situation!) Jumping off isn't the same. Nothing like an unexpected 40ft lob to calm the nerves.

[Oldmanmatt]

I fall a lot.


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[Fultonius]

I think, but I'm not sure, that it is probably necessary to go beyond the practice drills in a staged progression, as I do think there is  a risk that doing drills will mainly improve your ability to... do drills.

One way of stepping it up to the "red point" level, that could still be done indoors, or at a crag, is find a hard route (between onsight and red point level) and just climb it until you fall, the important bit being that the fall is  much less controlled. I also like meunchener's idea of jumping of the crux (if safe).

I do worry about what happens if my girlfriend falls off unexpectedly, because she's not "practiced" in falling. She's not gripped by fear of falling and is progressing, so I've got no inclination to push her, just this nagging unease at the back if my mind.

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[Nutty]

The progression of practiced falls described in Espresso Lessons goes further than jumping off in to practicing falls where you're out-of-balance and not preparing to jump off. From memory, once you've progressed through slumping on a rope, falling level with a bolt and then jumping off progressively higher above a bolt, you start dropping off from different positions and then progress to dropping off as soon as the belayer/partner calls out 'drop' or similar so that you practice falling without preparing for it.

[Fiend]

It's be interesting to see some non anecdotal evidence of falling drills working. Falling drills are undertaken in a controlled way where the climber is most likely sure they're not going to hurt themselves, as oposssc to being at the crag etc where the climber is going to be fearful of injury. If the you had the thought going above your kit 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' then there'd be no need for falling practice. It's a perceptual control thing

And that is exactly why you don't understand how falling drills can work so well, because you don't understand that fear of falling is NOT always about conscious fear of injury, and you don't understand that a climber can rationally think 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' AND still be emotionally bloody terrified of falling. It's been usefully termed phantom fear, it has very little to do with actual danger, it is irrespective of logically understanding the lack of danger in a situation, it can be utterly debilitating to progressing with climbing (and committing to situations where you might risk a safe fall), and it can be tackled directly and very effectively by falling drills.

[Rocksteady]

The progression of practiced falls described in Espresso Lessons goes further than jumping off in to practicing falls where you're out-of-balance and not preparing to jump off. From memory, once you've progressed through slumping on a rope, falling level with a bolt and then jumping off progressively higher above a bolt, you start dropping off from different positions and then progress to dropping off as soon as the belayer/partner calls out 'drop' or similar so that you practice falling without preparing for it.

I have had real issues with falling, I think because I spent about two years when I started climbing only climbing on toprope. I am still not great - I find unless I practice regularly and in different environments, different crags, I get freaked out again.
I had a mate who really helped me with getting over fear of falling indoors at least who just made me practice loads of falls. Started little, then bigger, then skipping a clip at the top of the wall. Then progressed to him just shouting fall and me having to let go. He would usually do this whenever he sensed I was getting nervous, like on a difficult clip. This really helped.
Outdoors I find I am comfortable in some situations and not others. I had a complete 'mare on my trip to Gorges du Tarn this year where I was on climbs right at my limit with longish runouts. I've noticed in particular I freak out where the line goes in a diagonal and has insecure feet - I feel very conscious of ensuring the rope is in front of my feet having seen videos of inverted falls. Redpointing definitely helps as you end up falling off a lot - it works to deliberately fall at the point where you're worried (as long as you've sussed it's safe).

In terms of 'motivation' for fall practice - it has to come from within, from the desire to improve. And also enjoy climbing more. I've had days where I'm a bit paralysed on routes within my limit due to lack of commitment because of fear of falling. That's not fun. I'd love to get to the stage where I don't worry about it at all and can just focus on enjoying climbing. Sometimes that feels close, sometimes far away.

[Muenchener]

One way of stepping it up to the "red point" level, that could still be done indoors, or at a crag, is find a hard route (between onsight and red point level) and just climb it until you fall, the important bit being that the fall is  much less controlled.

Mr Kettle recommended precisely this to me - round off a wall session with a no-takes go on something just above onsight level. Then you either do it - hurrah! - or get used to falling whilst trying hard. I've been doing it for a couple of weeks now, seems ike a good idea.

[user deactivated]

It's be interesting to see some non anecdotal evidence of falling drills working. Falling drills are undertaken in a controlled way where the climber is most likely sure they're not going to hurt themselves, as oposssc to being at the crag etc where the climber is going to be fearful of injury. If the you had the thought going above your kit 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' then there'd be no need for falling practice. It's a perceptual control thing

And that is exactly why you don't understand how falling drills can work so well, because you don't understand that fear of falling is NOT always about conscious fear of injury, and you don't understand that a climber can rationally think 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' AND still be emotionally bloody terrified of falling. It's been usefully termed phantom fear, it has very little to do with actual danger, it is irrespective of logically understanding the lack of danger in a situation, it can be utterly debilitating to progressing with climbing (and committing to situations where you might risk a safe fall), and it can be tackled directly and very effectively by falling drills.

Hey Fiend  I did think about that after my post and wondered if it was right. Still I think there's some level of 'cognition' propelling the problem even in the situation you described above. Emotional reasoning for example - being scared is unacceptable or means I may fail or indicates danger. That could be improved just by falling drills but adjustment of perception is important here even if it's not immediately consciously apparent. Some people think anxiety / fear / excitement etc only become this based on interpretation (cognition / perception)  without this it is just a state of arousal.

[ghisino]

It's be interesting to see some non anecdotal evidence of falling drills working.

unless some sport science/ sports psychology student wants to have a go at this, lots of anecdoctal evidence is the best you can hope for.

personally speaking:

-i was very reluctant for a long time
-when i finally gave them a chance, i did it systematically and the difference was simply too obvious to ignore. it really does work, especially if you approach it as you would approach any "progression" : constant work with steady little increments. My own target was being able to dyno at a blank spot on the wall, with the last bolt at my feet. When i got to the point where i was "enjoying" the exercise, i was also ok with 95% of outdoors sport climbing situations.

-the results do not last forever. If i go a long time without "spontaneous" falls, i need a little falling drills session to get back to my usual level of fear/bravery.

an interesting and more controversial question (maybe that's what you are really asking?) is : does it help for those sketchy situations, where you can objectively and rationally state that falling is a very bad idea?

My feeling is that it helps marginally by removing the some of the "irrational" part of the fear, and also indirectly, as my "usual" climbing style is a bit less tense. Overall i'm more relaxed, less irrational, and enjoy the experience more.
However for me it is not a substitute for actual practice of any kind of sketchy climbing, rather a useful complement

[petejh]

Most people have this fear to some extent - it's natural to not feel relaxed about falling from height, despite the safeguards in place!

Fear of falling, if all the safeguards are working properly, is an irrational fear. You won't come to harm other than perhaps a few bruises and perhaps a hurt ego.
Irrational fear is still fear, it makes no difference to the subjective experience of fear whether the danger is real or perceived danger - anxiety attacks are an extreme fear response and are normally triggered by non-threatening scenarios being perceived by the person as life-threatening.

Spiders is a classic. I'm fearful of spiders - do I think they're life-threatening or injurious (in the UK, outlier black widows in bananas aside), no! I know they pose no 'real' danger.

I think I'm correct in saying the only way to overcome an irrational fear is exposure therapy. Maybe hypnosis can also do it?  But the motivation to expose yourself to the fear has to be there - I'm content to live my life being irrationally fearful of small non-poisonous spiders because it doesn't really impact enough on my day-today living.

I'm not content to be fearful of falling on lead because it would hold me back from doing something I love. I'll probably always be a little fearful, and so will probably always need to expose myself to lead falling in a controlled way - 'controlled' can mean different things at different times, or for different people, depending on where they are on the scale of fearfulness. From a bit of slack on a top-rope, to big whippers onto trad gear (with nothing to hit!).