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motivation for lead falling drills. (Read 8606 times)

ghisino

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motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 11:55:55 am
little climbing psychology question.

My gf, as many intermediate climbers, is severely held back by her fear of falling, to the point she can toprope-redpoint some 7a's, but will have a horrible time leading most 6a's indoors (and 5c's outdoors)

She seems really pissed about it and knows about the falling drills solution, need to lead climb more, and that all of this can be a long process that works best on a "daily routine" basis...

The problem is, it is really hard for her to routinely practice such "unpleasant" situations at small intensity/high volume...she'd rather take a couple of "scary" falls or a try relatively bold lead once every ten sessions, when the stars are aligned correctly, which is useless (or even counter productive...as it may feed a belief that she can be brave enough on a good day)

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers

Muenchener

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#1 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 12:07:46 pm
Nothing constructive to add except that I recently fell off a 6a pitch - first time ever, go me! - on an exposed multipitch route, and I feel like that might have done more for my head than any amount of jumping off a climbing wall.

Paul B

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#2 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 12:28:06 pm
My better half is now a complete loon very confident when it comes to falling off sport-routes. This year she spent a fair bit of time on the Ashes and was happy lobbing off the final section 'ground up' but it hasn't always been this way and she's definitely chosen to TR things at inopportune moments (i.e. completely impractical routes). Personally, I think getting to the point where you can TR redpoint something is a bit nuts (couldn't that've been the lead go?) and I'd be aiming to be on RP much earlier than that as it helps iron out missing sequences / clipping & even little things like where the rope is in relation to yourself and the key foothold you use on the crux.

The LHS of Malham/Kilnsey lend themselves well to TRing to work routes but I genuinely can't think of many other places where this is the case (additional rope stretch, steepness all play a part in making this a royal PITA) and I think that's the habit to break.

I had a similar experience to Muenchener and ended up a bit over-confident on my return to the UK, i.e. forgetting the much kinder spacing!

I used to think an 'exposure' therapy type approach worked well for these kind of things but these days I'm less convinced and feel my head is directly linked to time on rock and how prepared I am for the given situation (be it trad or sport) and is adversely affected by any outside influences (primarily work; this is also true for my motivation). Doing something mentally taxing doesn't seem to work well for me if I've had a bad day at the office.

cheque

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#3 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 12:41:29 pm
She needs to understand that the only thing that reduces the scariness of falling is having it happen regularly. Every sport/ indoor climbing session she has without falling reinforces the idea that falls are unpleasant, particularly if she top-ropes.

I speak from experience as I'm prone to being scared of falling (sometimes pathetically so) and it really holds me back. I made good progress this summer by setting myself two rules; fall (or jump) off at least once per session and never toprope. The more I stuck to them the better I climbed.

I used to say that taking deliberate practice falls was pointless but I think I was just saying that 'cos I didn't want to do it. This summer I had a project that I was absolutely terrified of falling on (probably due to originally working it on toprope a couple of years ago when it was just too hard for me) and a session repeatedly jumping off from all the scariest points of it made me relax to the extent that I improved my beta for three different sections, found a new rest and did it next session. 8)

If your girl's like me then she's very good at coming up with rational-sounding arguments for why she shouldn't lead or shouldn't try hard enuogh to risk taking a proper fall. You try them out on your partner and when they agree (they of course don't care whether you cheat yourself or not- not enough to properly argue about it anyway) you feel justified in being a wimp. It's only driving home that you regret it. I feel so happy driving home when I've tried hard and taken proper falls even if I was successful on the routes and, believe it or not, it's that rather than the desire to succeed that I use to motivate myself to be brave...

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#4 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 12:56:54 pm
I don't think falling drills work. You're better off trying hard above your bolt / kit and falling in extremis.

Muenchener

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#5 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 01:00:04 pm
I used to say that taking deliberate practice falls was pointless but I think I was just saying that 'cos I didn't want to do it. This summer I had a project that I was absolutely terrified of falling on (probably due to originally working it on toprope a couple of years ago when it was just too hard for me) and a session repeatedly jumping off from all the scariest points of it made me relax to the extent that I improved my beta for three different sections, found a new rest and did it next session. 8)

I think the specificity is key. I find jumping off the spot where I'm scared on a project far more useful than generic jumping off a climbing wall. Although I don't do enough of either really. And actual falling is better still.

Fiend

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#6 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 01:16:20 pm
If you're someone who suffers from lack of confidence, commitment inhibitions, fear of falling etc, then falling drills can not only work but be massively important  (to the point of being essential) and progressive. Anyone who doesn't think so very likely doesn't understand what it's like to hugely held back by those issues.

Quote
The problem is, it is really hard for her to routinely practice such "unpleasant" situations at small intensity/high volume...she'd rather take a couple of "scary" falls or a try relatively bold lead once every ten sessions, when the stars are aligned correctly, which is useless (or even counter productive...as it may feed a belief that she can be brave enough on a good day)

That is indeed a problem for the reasons you mention. It's very unlikely to be actually progressing with the issue.

Why is it really hard for her?? In terms of the thread title, the motivation is: it will be tackling real issues with her climbing and will almost certainly work. Even if it's really hard that could be motivation enough??

The only thing I can think is start the drills as per the Arno's Espresso Lessons, i.e. start falling practise with bouncing on top-rope, falling on top-rope with some slack, slumping onto a lead rope level with a bolt, 1' falls etc etc etc. He highlights very clearly how important it is to build up and gently expand the comfort zone.


Edit: even writing this post has got me more motivated for falling practise lol.

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#7 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 09:38:06 pm
I think taking practice falls is certainly a good thing, as long as the 'graduated exposure' process is followed: Take regular falls that feel mildy exciting (think butterfiles) rather than negative and gripping (feelings of dread beforehand). I usually suggest aiming for a 3 out of 10 on the climbers internal 'fear scale', 1 being totally relaxed, 10 being panic. What size of fall comprises a 3/10 is not important, and with practice that size fall will become a 2/10, then it's time to lengthen it to achieve 3/10 again. Bear in mind some folks find falls higher up, or on steeper walls much scarier than others, so they need to adjust the fall size as they ascend, to still achieve 3/10's.
The other approach is to learn to relax above bolts/gear, and trust your hands/feet for security rather that the feeling of a tight rope. This is where top-ropes are really unhelpful. They reinforce a physical association between upward tension (from the rope) and security. This can then lead to bolt-led climbing, fixating on getting runners in, clipping early etc. All unhelpfully stealing mental attention from the real issue of moving well between the holds.
Leading up and down indoors (on rainbow or super easy ground) can be good for tackling this, as it repeatedly puts you in a 'runout' position whilst on non-threatening holds.
And finally, coaching your partner is very hard - good luck!

seankenny

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#8 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 03, 2017, 09:54:47 pm
I had a similar problem with my head being a bit rubbish, got frustrated with myself and basically followed something similar to what Mr Kettle describes very well above. I can say it totally works, yes there is a difference between "real" falling off on lead and throwing yourself off, and yes there is a difference between the climbing wall and the crag. All those differences can be deal with in exactly the same way - gradual exposure to the scary thing.

However, as Dave Mac says, you've got to do it a  lot. Starting around this time of year, I gave myself a goal of something like 300 falls before Xmas, and once a week I'd go to the wall and throw myself off 10 or 15 times or whatever. I was pretty anal about logging them too, somewhere in my filofax there is a lot of little five bar gates from that time! I can't remember if I reached the 300 within the timescale but I know I've taken hundreds and hundreds of falls since then and I'm much calmer about it (but not all the time, still work to do). I think you've got to make the target number pretty big, it's no use saying you'll do 20 because you'll do that in a week or two and go back to old habits. It gets easier quite quickly but that long plateau when it's "sort of okay" is the killer that you have to break through, because you don't want it to be sort of okay, you want it to be casual.

I'm afraid I can offer no insight into the motivation issue tho! You just have to want to be able to fall off I suppose. I've heard a few people say "oh I should practice some falling" and then never do it. Perhaps fall practice is to climbing as dieting is to the overweight?

Nibile

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#9 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 05:41:40 am

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers
What's going on: she hates you, or she's cheating on you, or she is going to dump you, or all the above.
Solution: quit. Or get her into bouldering.
You're welcome.
 :hug:

bendavison

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#10 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 08:04:53 am
For me, falling drills didn't help. Doing lots of volume in terrain I was comfortable in did though - I found that I naturally increased the level I was happy to lead at.

ghisino

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#11 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 11:35:18 am

Any clues about what's going on and how she may overcome her motivation issue???

Cheers
What's going on: she hates you, or she's cheating on you, or she is going to dump you, or all the above.
Solution: quit. Or get her into bouldering.
You're welcome.
 :hug:

haha.

brilliant side thinking lore. i have only 3 issues:
1) she fractured her talus bouldering in 2014
2)i just moved to an area rich in roped climbs and poor in bouldering
3) the scariest: i'm temporarily staying at her mothers' place!!!

Paul B

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#12 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 11:55:41 am
For me, falling drills didn't help. Doing lots of volume in terrain I was comfortable in did though - I found that I naturally increased the level I was happy to lead at.

You mean you pushed the problem up a few grades  ;D

SimonB

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#13 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 01:03:34 pm
The motivation has to come from her, you can tell her why she should do something and why its rational until your blue in the face.

Does she climb with other people besides you? Its easy to be scared and back off when your with your partner than others.

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#14 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 01:06:19 pm

You mean you pushed the problem up a few grades  ;D
;D
This, for me it's definitely this.

Lots of people don't have a problem when they go all out on RPs, or try onsights so well within the abilities that they can tell if they're going to fall or not. But when there are many on-off moves in a row and the bolts are spaced, then you can tell who are comfortable falling and who are not...

Wil

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#15 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 01:23:04 pm
...when there are many on-off moves in a row and the bolts are spaced, then you can tell who are comfortable falling and who are not...

This is me. If I can see an endpoint where I'll be able to stand in balance, or a good jug then I'm happy to wobble my way through some insecure sequences. I'm not happy if I'm off balance while I'm clipping, or if I feel that I'm going to struggle with the next clip/gear. Generally on redpoint it isn't such a problem for me because I know what's coming and how long I'll have to focus for, but onsight it can be a big factor and make me climb badly, exacerbating the problem.

Sarnian

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#16 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 01:29:20 pm
I do quite a lot of fall practice and it's helped me loads. If I'm on a trip I try and get into a habit of doing it every session as my warm up if there's a suitable route (not a slab full of ledges). It's a good way to warm up as you get to do the route twice and it's also good dynamic belay practice for my belayer.

I like to start off really gently by falling off with the second bolt clipped above me, and then falling off at every bolt as I go up but increasing the distance slightly each time. I put no pressure on myself that I have to be taking a huge whipper at the top, if I'm still falling just above the bolt by the end that's fine too but I can usually jump off a typical bolt distance by the end without much fear.

If your gf is lighter than you then giving a soft catch is super important, the best trick I've learnt is to crouch down ready to jump. Belay glasses make it harder to get the timing right.

highrepute

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#17 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 04, 2017, 01:42:37 pm
The motivation has to come from her, you can tell her why she should do something and why its rational until your blue in the face.

Does she climb with other people besides you? Its easy to be scared and back off when your with your partner than others.

These are both key issues i think.

If she doesn't really want to lead harder and therefor doesn't have a strong need to overcome her fear then it'll be very hard for her to do the fall practice.

On this front reading something like "The Rock Warrior's Way" or "Espresso Lessons" (as mentioned by fiend) might be useful. Certainly I found it useful it tackling my ego and motivations.

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#18 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 06:49:00 am
My lass has a fear of falling, so generally doesn't. Weirdly, she pretty much started off lead climbing (didn't see the point in top roping) so actually is quite comfortable askng as she's not having to make hard moves above a bolt. She leads around 6b on a good day, but dienst top rope any harder - strangely she cannot push herself even on TR...

I've suggested falling practise, but as others have said, it's difficult to encourage a partner to do something unpleasant. The motivation has to be internal.

I've noticed the best motivation is  for them to inb with other people who are:

At a similar level to them, or just above.
Not afraid of falling, or actively practising falling (even better).

Or,

Pay for a coaching session. Good advice from a coach, even when it's *exactly* the same advice you've just given, is usually well received.

My fear of falling disappeared when I took an 8m whipper onto a small grey bd camalot on the big zipper at Dumby, when my hand slipped off the final wet hold.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


ghisino

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#19 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 09:40:18 am
thanks everyone, i think i may just print the thread :D.

a part of the issue i wasn't thinking of is that, fear apart, she has a low tolerance for "ego-painful" experiences.

one example: most of her routine climbing is on a short wall, bouldery routes, close to vertical.

when we visit a longer and steeper wall with a very specific endurance style on rounded holds, she obviously gets pumped out of her mind, on grades she considers warmups. it is hard to accept for her and doesn't motivate her to train on that style more often, but rather to end the "wrong" session...

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#20 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 09:46:50 am
The thing about fall-training, I have found, is the belayer.

Sometimes at the wall when I fall, the belayer still does that thing of trying to reduce the length of fall by pulling in the rope. And these are often really experienced climbers I'm with. And I say, but I think belaying properly takes as much training as falling. It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Paul B

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#21 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 11:24:55 am
It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Find a waif to belay you and if the catch still isn't soft enough then introduce a roller. They won't know what hit them (apart from perhaps the rock near the 1st bolt).

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#22 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 02:13:18 pm
It really hurts, getting whipped into the wall. Enough to put you off.

Find a waif to belay you and if the catch still isn't soft enough then introduce a roller. They won't know what hit them (apart from perhaps the rock near the 1st bolt).

TobyD (<60kg) did this for me (currently 83kg) on Empire a couple of weeks ago, when I lobbed off at the second clip.

Was a really soft catch until his head hit my arse at something approximating the speed of sound...

Yesterday at Torbryan, he was clipping into the ground to avoid further intimate encounters.


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#23 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 07:46:48 pm
It's be interesting to see some non anecdotal evidence of falling drills working. Falling drills are undertaken in a controlled way where the climber is most likely sure they're not going to hurt themselves, as oposssc to being at the crag etc where the climber is going to be fearful of injury. If the you had the thought going above your kit 'I've nothing to be worried about here even if I fall' then there'd be no need for falling practice. It's a perceptual control thing

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#24 Re: motivation for lead falling drills.
October 05, 2017, 07:59:50 pm
That's why I like to go for specificity: hopping off the crux of a project a few times so I can think "well I know nothing bad happens if I fall off here"

 

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