Author Topic: AnCap session ideas  (Read 1365 times)

Offline rcl

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AnCap session ideas
« on: June 29, 2017, 11:38:26 am »
Looking for some advice for AnCap sessions. The standard exercise would be 12-15 moves on a circuits wall or steep board close to my limit then rest time 2-4 times the climb time (from Binney/Randall/Barrows).

Is it better to use mostly vertical moves for this (e.g. on a woodie with lots of holds), or do traverses work as well (circuit board). Different muscles I guess.

What about the idea of linked boulders, e.g. two boulders close together. Then linking them somehow by downclimbing.

Other options would be feet on/off campus board work, though I guess less climbing specific. I also have a lattice board nearby. So that would be another option.

Any more ideas ? Pros and cons of each type ? I'm thinking its good to mix up the different ideas.

Thanks
Roy.

Offline petejh

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 12:29:53 pm »
Earlier this year I did some ancap workouts on a campus board:

1-3-5-7, down ladder hand over hand, back up 1-3-5-7.

Started on the large rungs and progressed to mediums.

Work time is around 30 seconds - so shorter than the recommended 40 seconds+, but intensity is higher and can be increased/reduced easily.

Rest time was 4 times the work time.

I progressed to be able to do 8 reps split between two sets of 4 reps, with a 10 minute rest between sets. Failing with that powered-out feeling on the last two reps of the second set.


Other option is 2 problems back-to-back on a Moonboard or similar. 2 probs = 1 rep. Rest 4 times the work time, repeat 4 times and progress to more reps

Offline highrepute

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 12:52:44 pm »
I'd say you have pretty much answered your own question.

I think woodie and circuit board can be equally effective. The only reason to choose one over the other is if one more closely matches the climbing style of your project.

On the woodie I wouldn't bother down-climbing just drop-off and quickly set off again.

Feet-on campusing would be too easy.


Offline rcl

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 01:13:20 pm »
Thanks for the replies. I had wondered about down-climbing on the woodie, which is awkward. Easier to drop off and get straight back on without resting. Not quite continuous but I guess it is fine.

I was doing similar campus board sessions in the winter. Though I needed to use the larger rungs.

Offline abarro81

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 03:59:16 pm »
Personally I don't like dropping off and pulling back on with An Cap. I know lots of people do use it, and Tom gives it to people in various guises, but I prefer links without stepping off on this kind of training, even if it means having to trav a few moves into and out of an up problem rather than just going upwards...

Offline jwi

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 05:07:51 pm »
[del]

Offline rjtrials

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 08:09:38 pm »
Earlier this year I did some ancap workouts on a campus board:

I want to try to incorporate this into my training in about two months time.  If you dont mind spraying,  what route grade/s were you training for?  I'm trying to break into 8b+ and trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.

Offline bendavison

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 09:36:35 am »

trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.
[/quote]

I don't think this is a thing. You just make it harder as you get better/in order to get better.
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Offline highrepute

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 10:11:00 am »

trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.

I don't think this is a thing. You just make it harder as you get better/in order to get better.
[/quote]
It's like what lattice have done where for example hanging an edge with one arm is equal to 8a. Except the problem is it's not 8a and the best way to tell if you're able to climb 8a is to climb 8a.

Offline jwi

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 11:14:49 am »
the best way to tell if you're able to climb 8a is to climb 8a.

+1

I'd like to add:
The best way to tell if you're strong for your grade is how well you boulder.
The best way to tell if you're fit for your grade is how well you're doing on endless staminaplods.
The best way to tell if you're resistance is good is how well you're doing on short routes that can be done in a minute or so.
Etc

Offline andy_e

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 11:19:26 am »
Power is nothing without control...

Offline jwi

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 11:56:57 am »
Still my favorite ad

Offline rcl

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 04:37:02 pm »
About linked boulders again:

the problems at most bouldering walls are 6-10 moves long (also Moonboard type). So how are you linking together problems to get up to 15-20 moves if not dropping off ? Downclimbing/traversing ?

Apologies if this is obvious. Just interested.

Offline nai

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 05:59:35 pm »
15-20 moves sounds too many, you should really be looking at 12-15.

The trick with setting a circuit is to not let the intensity drop for the downclimb section, otherwise you may as well drop off and quickly get back on.

I only ever perform AnCap on my homeboard so always set my own but what I do is ensure that I finish moving up the whole height of the board so you're pulling out the powerful moves through the fatigue building.  My current circuit only does three up moves initially before a big move sideways then a couple of burly sidepull/undercut moves to drop down, then up diagonally to the top.

So in your case a six move problem at the wall would need maybe three up moves into a traverse/downclimb then the up problem. A 10 move problem barely needs any extra moves.
Careful choosing it though, ideally it needs to be sustained so that you could fail on any move and without any stopper moves, unfortunately you only find this out when you're deep into a session.  I reckon you're always better setting your own.

I also do a session that involves repeating problems three times each dropping off between, bit like a 4x4.  You can use harder moves for this and it's good to advance to after a base phase of circuits.  Of the two I reckon I prefer this workout.
Luck favours the Prepared

Offline rjtrials

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 08:32:16 pm »

trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.

I don't think this is a thing. You just make it harder as you get better/in order to get better.
It's like what lattice have done where for example hanging an edge with one arm is equal to 8a. Except the problem is it's not 8a and the best way to tell if you're able to climb 8a is to climb 8a.
[/quote]

So in essence, if you were trying to get to 8a, your finger strength regime would try to get you to hang this edge one handed.  These baselines have definitely been discussed on both one and two handed hangs.

I am interested in an AnCap campus board workout baseline, hence my question regarding grades.

There is an obvious progression of difficulty as you progress through the Foot On Campus protocols on the large, medium and small rungs.  Trying to complete the FOC on the small campus rungs with +15% of my bodyweight felt like trying to do links on an 8b route. 

Is doing this workout sans feet on the large campus rungs akin to 8c redpoints? 

I am a way better rock climber than I am a trainer for rock climbing and understanding how certain workouts ON AVERAGE pertain to a redpoint grade helps in structuring an overall training plan.  For example, if you can hang the 8a edge, then just maintaining finger strength and focusing on other things will offer the most bang for the buck.

Offline jwi

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 08:43:06 pm »
I maintain that hanging on a juggy wooden edge is a crap way of finding if your fingers are strong enough for your goals.

Offline rcl

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 08:56:58 pm »
Thanks nai. Really useful detailed explanation. I don't have a home board but I reckon I can do what you suggest on some of the boards covered in holds near me, e.g. Depot Manchester, Rockover or Hangar. Same with the repeated problem/dropping off technique.

Offline csl

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 11:57:26 am »
I am interested in an AnCap campus board workout baseline, hence my question regarding grades.

There is an obvious progression of difficulty as you progress through the Foot On Campus protocols on the large, medium and small rungs.  Trying to complete the FOC on the small campus rungs with +15% of my bodyweight felt like trying to do links on an 8b route. 

Surely there is not enough standardisation between campus board setups to ever be able to put a grade on workouts? Certainly at the two walls I climb at - the campus boards are different enough to make FOC an entirely different intensity.

Whether theres any benefit to trying to grade these feats is another matter.

Offline petejh

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 12:37:19 pm »
Earlier this year I did some ancap workouts on a campus board:

I want to try to incorporate this into my training in about two months time.  If you dont mind spraying,  what route grade/s were you training for?  I'm trying to break into 8b+ and trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.

I was also trying to climb around 8b+.

Not sure if you meant actually grading your workouts..? I'd not bother thinking about this. I just try to replicate in training the level of effort required by the goal route/s.
JWI that's great and all and I don't disagree but we have weather, bird bans and conditions. You can't get on your project here most of the time!

Offline bendavison

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 12:51:42 pm »

trying to wrap my head around what workouts correspond to different RP grades.

I don't think this is a thing. You just make it harder as you get better/in order to get better.
It's like what lattice have done where for example hanging an edge with one arm is equal to 8a. Except the problem is it's not 8a and the best way to tell if you're able to climb 8a is to climb 8a.

So in essence, if you were trying to get to 8a, your finger strength regime would try to get you to hang this edge one handed.  These baselines have definitely been discussed on both one and two handed hangs.

I am interested in an AnCap campus board workout baseline, hence my question regarding grades.

There is an obvious progression of difficulty as you progress through the Foot On Campus protocols on the large, medium and small rungs.  Trying to complete the FOC on the small campus rungs with +15% of my bodyweight felt like trying to do links on an 8b route. 

Is doing this workout sans feet on the large campus rungs akin to 8c redpoints? 

I am a way better rock climber than I am a trainer for rock climbing and understanding how certain workouts ON AVERAGE pertain to a redpoint grade helps in structuring an overall training plan.  For example, if you can hang the 8a edge, then just maintaining finger strength and focusing on other things will offer the most bang for the buck.
[/quote]

As others have said, trying to put grades to sessions may be a waste of effort and unnecessary - though I'm sure Tom R will have a measure of it, if you're willing to pay. But, sounds like you're also wondering (1) how to determine what your weakness is and (2) how to make ancap sessions progressively harder.

(1) I think Tom R has a method for this, which is something like repeatedly doing foot-on campussing/lattice circuiting to failure, resting the same amount as your climbing time. After a handful of goes you'll find that your climbing time doesn't really decrease any/much more - a 'level-off time'. I'm not too sure what his threshold is, but if the level-off time is > 15% of your max time, then your ancap isn't a weakness. Obviously it will depend on the route etc...

(2) I think the general advice is to make them harder, not longer or with shorter rest. I guess it's just a bit of a skill to make things a little bit harder every time. My advice would be to aim too easy at first, and build from them.

Other bit of general advice is to stop worrying about whether or not your plan is optimal. For most people, it doesn't really matter IMO - they'd make more progress if they got better at make sessions incrementally harder and did them consistently.
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Offline jwi

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Re: AnCap session ideas
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2017, 04:50:49 pm »

JWI that's great and all and I don't disagree but we have weather, bird bans and conditions. You can't get on your project here most of the time!
Sounds just like where I live. It's either too hot or too wet for climbing.

And surely you also have the great indoors? I know that climbing gyms can't grade for toffee (I boulder 6C+ indoors après-travail in Toulouse, but flashes V8 indoors in California so I gather V8=6B... ) but usually you can make a mental translation table by taking note of what you can do within 5 goes indoors vs outdoors.