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Like I need a hole in the head (Read 16668 times)

SA Chris

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No, when they clip the rope so it goes through the 'biner the wrong way.

Comme ca



(I think, can't watch whole vid)

cheque

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Oh yeah, that's what I think of as backclipping. Not sure why the bolts being close together makes it easier to do? It definitely makes z-clipping easier.

At the old Notts wall they used to (possibly still do) have an extra maillon on each draw so you couldn't backclip as the biner that the rope goes in is 90 degrees to the wall. Not sure if that really makes it any safer as you can't clip the right way either.  :-\

Ascary thing I've come across is bolts where the hangar is horizontal, allowing the draw to turn and make a correctly-clipped draw a backclipped one  :blink:. Obviously it's a consequence of hangers turning after becoming loose a bit but I've seen some glue-ins placed horizontally as well.

Wood FT

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Oh yeah, that's what I think of as backclipping. Not sure why the bolts being close together makes it easier to do? It definitely makes z-clipping easier.

At the old Notts wall they used to (possibly still do) have an extra maillon on each draw so you couldn't backclip as the biner that the rope goes in is 90 degrees to the wall. Not sure if that really makes it any safer as you can't clip the right way either.  :-\

Ascary thing I've come across is bolts where the hangar is horizontal, allowing the draw to turn and make a correctly-clipped draw a backclipped one  :blink:. Obviously it's a consequence of hangers turning after becoming loose a bit but I've seen some glue-ins placed horizontally as well.

I z clipped once in a nest of cams before the headwall of Warpath, turbo-drag the like of which I hope to never feel again, had to stop at little rests to pull through the required bits of slack. Fell off.

TobyD

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Events like quickdraws unclipping from bolts/rope unclipping from quickdraws are extremely rare - total guestimate around 1-in-100,000 clips. But the more you climb...


I like the idea of the locking dmm revolvers for bolts you have clipsticked.

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I climbed past a QuickDraw and it unclipped on a long runout in the Verdon once. Very scary at the time, on reflection it must have been due to the draw twisting. Hi Toby  :wave:

Johnny Brown

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I like the idea of the locking dmm revolvers for bolts you have clipsticked.

I wouldn't use a revolver on the first bolt - it will increase the fall distance due to less friction, and increase the force on the belayer, at the point in the climb when both are least desirable.

You can't do a screwgate up remotely either. Surely one of those new double-gate designs must work with a clipstick?

Paul B

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That accepted, don't they make a lot of difference on the first bolt as there's often a reasonable change in direction due to the belayer being out from the cliff? Where do you think they best serve their purpose, changes in angle / direction / crux (reduced wear on the rope)?

I forgot my sling-draws had revolvers on them last year and fluffed a spaced out section. I was very surprised with how far I fell.

Johnny Brown

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I've never used them sport climbing so maybe not the man to ask. Cowboyhat borrowed a couple for some marginal gains on Mecca extension, but I don't know which bolts he used them on. I appreciate the first bolt can cause drag but I suspect better belaying can solve most of it as it's the one bolt with no rope drag below it.

But yes, changes in angle. I carry 4 or 5 mostly on sling draws for trad and winter, which generally get used on runners off to the side, under roofs or spaced on long easy sections.

For the rope wear I normally see sport climbers with, it's a case of hammering one end which is fairly unavoidable. The cure is to just cut it off earlier.

Doylo

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I used two at Dulas for drag and change of direction. Quite spicey there as the ground is closeish.

Monolith

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Z-clipping makes you stronger. Just ask Richie Crouch.

Rocksteady

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Good article. I will pre-clip first 2 or even occasionally 3 bolts if it will save me from danger of a ground fall, every time. Have been sniffed at once or twice but I don't care, I'm climbing for my own enjoyment and fulfilment. Unless someone is trashing the rock, putting themselves in danger through inexperience or ruining everyone else's enjoyment at the crag by loud music or something, I'd never think to comment on someone's style of ascent or approach. It's none of my business - I take the view that my climbing is none of theirs.

Have never seen the rope unclipping thing but food for thought, does make me think about wearing a helmet sport climbing, have seen it more often more recently (especially in Europe).

Luke Owens

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I always have the first in no matter how easy the route. 2nd in generally on hard (for me) redpoints if it's hard to clip.

Anyone listen to the recent Moffat interview with Björn Pohl?

They discuss stick clipping first bolts; Jerry's opinion was that it should be expected that climbing is dangerous and if you're likely to fall off going for the first bolt you should climb something easier. He seemed completely againist it even for the safety aspect. Struck me as a bit daft but I guess it's because things were just different back then.

Duma

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Would wearing a helmet not mitigate consequences of decking from first second/bolt? I agree that second bolts should be placed (if possible) close enough to the first to avoid the risk of decking when clipping it. But stick clipping bolts is not just a matter of faff v safety. The fact is, that on lots of routes clipping the bolts adds significantly to the difficulty - pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best. Someone doing a short intense route (ie lots of UK routes) with the first 2 or 3 pre clipped is reducing the physical challenge, not just increasing safety margin. Saying everyone do their own thing is only makes sense if we accept that everyone's not taking on the same challenge (physical not mental). Taken to the extreme why not just be happy to top rope a route clean?

Helmets on sport routes seem a better option than pre clipping 2 or more bolts (to me, obviously all this is a completely personal decision)

Sorry this is all a bit rambling

T_B

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It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter. I can think of two examples where I pre-clipped the second bolt (Caviar and Raindogs). With Caviar it makes it easier to have it pre-clipped, but saves cocking up and breaking your ankles. With Raindogs it saves you breaking your ankles and maybe makes it a little bit easier, but it's more the worry of skating off the footholds than having the bolt pre-clipped. I don't view sport climbing as an area of climbing where I like to take risks, my head's not in that zone. If I want to risk breaking my ankles/getting a hole in my head I go tradding. Maybe for the very top people pushing 9b+ it might be a cause for comment, but to be honest I'm even surprised this is being discussed. You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

T_B

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Helmets on sport routes seem a better option than pre clipping 2 or more bolts (to me, obviously all this is a completely personal decision)


What, placed at the bottom in the hope that you'll land on one, it'll break your fall and stop you breaking your ankles?

Duma

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Woah, chill out T_B, was just musing.
It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter.
  ;)

If you want to remove all the risk when sport climbing why not top rope? (serious question, would it "not count"? If so how many bolts pre clipped mean it wouldn't count? Why wouldn't it count?)

Head injuries are much more likely to be life changing than breaking an ankle, and the risk of such is somewhat mitigated by a helmet.

You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

Climbing full stop doesn't really matter after all
:kiss2:



dave

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Saying everyone do their own thing is only makes sense if we accept that everyone's not taking on the same challenge (physical not mental).

Have we not accepted that already? In case nobody has noticed we're all different shapes and sizes, we all wear different shoes, our draws are different lengths, and the temperature/humidity/wind is not constant.

I can think of two examples where I pre-clipped the second bolt (Caviar and Raindogs). With Caviar it makes it easier to have it pre-clipped, but saves cocking up and breaking your ankles.

Technically I think you had the third bolt clipped on Caviar. But that's the one everyone does it with, I think on of the first two bolts was a later addition, a dogging bolt maybe, or at least that's what I was told.

T_B

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Woah, chill out T_B, was just musing.
It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter.
  ;)

If you want to remove all the risk when sport climbing why not top rope? (serious question, would it "not count"? If so how many bolts pre clipped mean it wouldn't count? Why wouldn't it count?)

Head injuries are much more likely to be life changing than breaking an ankle, and the risk of such is somewhat mitigated by a helmet.

You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

Climbing full stop doesn't really matter after all
:kiss2:

I don't see there being much risk leading sport routes, as you're clipping bolts. It's supposed to be very safe as far as I'm concerned. Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Breaking an ankle can be fairly life changing actually*. Of course not as much as a serious head injury, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of what it might mean to someone who is keen on sport and needlessly (in my view, if they're sport climbing and deck out due to not stick-clipping) breaks an ankle.

*I should point out that both my wife and I have broken ankles climbing. Hers is what's technically known as f*ct and means she can't run on it, nor even walk properly. She can still climb, luckily. I was incredibly lucky not to have a worse injury, but am now paying for my stupidity since getting into fell running. So, please excuse me not being completely chilled out, when I read 'musing' comments that I think are a bit daft!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 12:16:09 pm by T_B »

T_B

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Technically I think you had the third bolt clipped on Caviar. But that's the one everyone does it with, I think on of the first two bolts was a later addition, a dogging bolt maybe, or at least that's what I was told.

Right you are Dave. It's a good example in that it makes a point. It's a bit of a cheat having the 3rd clipped, but most people do and as it's a lowly 8a+ no-one is going to care. It's not like some youth has claimed a ground up E10 but it transpires crucial gear was pre-placed.

Johnny Brown

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Quote
Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Bollocks. The risk of banging your head in a fall is obviously lower when falling top-roping compared to lead. Anchor failure is mostly a theoretical risk a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. And I can't think of any sport routes that rely on a single bolt lower-off. And if one exists back it up.

T_B

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Did I say anchor failure? Sorry, didn't mean that really. No, I'm thinking pilot error.

There are enough anecdotes (swinging into features/the ground on steep routes, unclipping the belay having not backclipped the last bolt). Top roping (invariably steep) sport routes gives me the heebeejeebies. I'd always prefer to be on lead, personally.


Oldmanmatt

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Quote
Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Bollocks. The risk of banging your head in a fall is obviously lower when falling top-roping compared to lead. Anchor failure is mostly a theoretical risk a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. And I can't think of any sport routes that rely on a single bolt lower-off. And if one exists back it up.

I agree, qualified by knowing of and witnessing so many serious fuckups on top-rope over the last 30 years. I think it gives a false sense of security.
Classic mistake that I've seen twice personally, once with a nasty outcome (although not tragic); is forgetting to do up your harness/tie in.
Didn't Destivile or Isabel, do something similar in the '80s?

There was also the big fat French dude, climbing with his young (12/13 ish) son in the Ardeche. He was climbing, lad belaying, he slipped high on the route. Son shoots up 10m or so as physics does it's thing, panics and lets go of rope and both took a 10m groud fall.
So, yeah, safer, but...


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Johnny Brown

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I agree top-roping doesn't work very well on overhanging ground, but British sport climbing is not 'invariably steep'. Far from it.

But suggesting leading is safer because you somehow 'take it more seriously' is utter bollocks. It's just not up for debate.

Do you let inexperienced climbers lead in your wall Matt? No. Because it's more dangerous.

Oldmanmatt

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I agree top-roping doesn't work very well on overhanging ground, but British sport climbing is not 'invariably steep'. Far from it.

But suggesting leading is safer because you somehow 'take it more seriously' is utter bollocks. It's just not up for debate.

Do you let inexperienced climbers lead in your wall Matt? No. Because it's more dangerous.
No, no! I said I agree with you. But it gives me the heebi-jeebies when people assume top roping is safe.
And they do.
Even quite experienced climbers get blasé about it, I have in the past. Some of the rigs I've seen set up by climbers (non-instructors) when introducing a mate to climbing are the stuff of nightmares...


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SA Chris

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[quote author=Oldmanmatt link=topic=28054.msg552104#msg552104
Classic mistake that I've seen twice personally, once with a nasty outcome (although not tragic); is forgetting to do up your harness/tie in.
Didn't Destivile or Isabel, do something similar in the '80s?

[/quote]

Lynne Hill. Not that it's particularly relevant to the discussion. It you forget to tie in, it doesn't matter if you preclip one bolt, twelve  bolts or toprope.

 

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