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Like I need a hole in the head (Read 16667 times)

TobyD

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Like I need a hole in the head
May 08, 2017, 01:35:10 pm
Hopefully this will help someone, read if you have time and ever tie in:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=9367

Sorry Simon, I know it's on the other side, but hopefully it'll help someone out there not to have an accident.

Will Hunt

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#1 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 08, 2017, 01:48:56 pm
In the accompanying thread on the other channel, somebody mentioned that two people climbing Yosemite Wall yesterday were given grief for using a clipstick. Unbelievable.  :wank:

changement

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#2 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 08, 2017, 05:16:34 pm
Great article and all the best for a swift recovery.

Regarding stick clipping, I can definitely empathise. I'm pretty happy with long run outs in routes and will take lobs all day long provided the first 1-2 bolts are pre-clipped. However, before getting these two clipped, I am totally gripped and basically turn in to a shaking wreck. This comes from what I consider an entirely rational fear of the ground (which I've hit before, thankfully never as bad as the OP).

Yet I often feel self-concious (this could easily be my own personal paranoia) that other people at the crag are judging me for having so many clips in (I'll have 3 if I think it's needed, my regular partner is significantly lighter than me and will usually go straight up to the first draw if I fall). This feeling is particularly prevalent when I do some of the shorter Malham/Kilnsey routes where a degree of the difficulty does come from clipping. I feel, and suspect other people think that the send is somehow cheapened because I have more than the minimum pre-clipped.

And if I'm honest it is, it's both physically and psychologically easier to do some of these routes with an extra draw in.. something that used to bother me a great deal until I decided climbing is a game where you can choose the rules. For me sport climbing is about the physical experience and none of the risk and I'm therefore now happy to do routes in the style I think is safe and enjoy. If it means that the grade decreases or its somehow considered invalid by certain people, I'm okay with that.

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TobyD

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#3 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 10:12:15 am
Great article and all the best for a swift recovery.

Regarding stick clipping,
And if I'm honest it is, it's both physically and psychologically easier to do some of these routes with an extra draw in.. ... For me sport climbing is about the physical experience and none of the risk and I'm therefore now happy to do routes in the style I think is safe and enjoy. If it means that the grade decreases or its somehow considered invalid by certain people, I'm okay with that​

My feeling is that I am honest with myself: I try to question whether I'm clipping for safety or to make it easier. My definition of acceptable risk may now have changed...

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#4 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 10:57:09 am
I stick clip for safety and occasionally to make it easier to work a route. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

Will Hunt

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#5 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 10:59:57 am
Those people who were apparently telling someone off for stick clipping were apparently just bemoaning the bolting on Yorkshire limestone. Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?


Just to play devil's advocate, would somebody who skipped the clip on one of these tricky to clip things be considered to have done the route? When Indra skips clips on Spanish pump fests, should he be sent back around?

duncan

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#6 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 11:15:58 am
Hopefully this will help someone, read if you have time and ever tie in:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=9367

Sorry Simon, I know it's on the other side, but hopefully it'll help someone out there not to have an accident.

Sobering piece. Published in the right place and worthy of wide circulation.

cheque

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#7 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 11:23:52 am
That's a brave and thought-provoking article Toby. Thanks man.

I stick clip for safety and occasionally to make it easier to work a route. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

 :agree: Sport climbing innit.

Those people who were apparently telling someone off for stick clipping were apparently just bemoaning the bolting on Yorkshire limestone.

That sounds a lot more likely. 

Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?

I associate having a high first bolt with safe bolting though- making the first bolt high so that everyone clipsticks it then having quite a short distance before the second bolt is certainly considered the best approach in the places I've climbed in the US. Fully-permadrawed routes over there will always have the first bolt without a perma for this reason. It's an approach that assumes that everyone takes a clipstick to the crag though.


TobyD

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#8 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 02:07:20 pm
Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?


Difficult balance here. YW is the original line. The bolt is high ish (4m?) But the climbing is easy (NB still fall off able, as I demonstrated) but it is a long diagonal. So to strip it you would hit the ground if it was lower, even with Steve Crowes well placed fixed draw. Perhaps a belay/ stripping bolt is a good idea? Sport climbers should understand why and the process involved?

WilliCrater

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#9 Re: Like I need a hole in the head
May 09, 2017, 07:27:54 pm
A little while ago, whilst pre-clipping the second bolt of a 7c route I was (and still am) attempting to red-point, I over heard another climber stage whisper to his mate "isn't that cheating".  The amusing irony being they then both went on to top-rope a neighbouring 5a route.

Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.

TobyD

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Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.
:lol: boom boom, the old ones are the best ones eh?

WRT your anecdote, ain't that always the way. I have started with 2 clipped on several significant routes to me. I'd tell anyone who was bored enough to ask, the act of doing this hurt neither myself or anyone else. Ergo, it's basically fine.
Things done for the sake of making the route easier, and then covered up concealed, or fully lied about on the other hand deserve some proper bad karma


WilliCrater

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Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.
:lol: boom boom, the old ones are the best ones eh?

WRT your anecdote, ain't that always the way. I have started with 2 clipped on several significant routes to me. I'd tell anyone who was bored enough to ask, the act of doing this hurt neither myself or anyone else. Ergo, it's basically fine.
Things done for the sake of making the route easier, and then covered up concealed, or fully lied about on the other hand deserve some proper bad karma

Absolutely.  No problems with top-roping incidentally.  Often use it on first few forays on projects to get an initial idea of what to do.

Will Hunt

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This popped up on Steve Mac's Facebook just now.

Quote
So the perfect weather finally broke, that run of 50% humidity turned to 90% with a damp drizzle. Still, we turned up, because you have to. But still a good effort, I made the final clip before the crux slap, almost dropping the clip and taking the fall, and then just didn't quite hold the slap. Then sat on the rope I looked down in horror to see the previous clip somehow wasn't clipped. For sure I had clipped it, others had noted, and then somehow it 'undid' itself. If I'd dropped the clip before the crux I'd have been on the ground from 20m. Food for thought before my next effort...

I know it's not related but this is one of the things that gets me about Malham sport routes. They're short and sometimes have little run outs on them for sustained sequency bits. A lot of the time your eggs are in one basket, so to speak. If the bolt, or more likely the quickdraw, below you fails somehow then you're fucked. Grim. I always wear a helmet when sport climbing and feel like a bit of a div doing so at Malham. Stuff like this makes me feel better about making that decision.

petejh

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Agreed, it makes you look like a div but so what.

Events like quickdraws unclipping from bolts/rope unclipping from quickdraws are extremely rare - total guestimate around 1-in-100,000 clips. But the more you climb...
If you climb as much as Steve Mac something's going to occur at some point, just glad he made that clip!

jwi

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I had a quickdraw unclip below me on Le Plaisir qui démonte in Gorges du Tarn. I noticed as I got ready for a pretty aléatoire slap just before the next draw. Afterwards I hung two draws on the bolt

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highrepute

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I had the rope unclip from a draw on Frankenstein at malham, pretty scary when you consider the length of the route. The problem was a dirty wire gate krabs. The gate could stick open so the rope lifted out. Not a problem with solid gates because they are heavy but worth checking your wire gates especially if they are old or you've been to a dirty crag.

T_B

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Patch Hammond fell off Rainbow of Recalcitrance and the q/draw unclipped.
Sam Whittaker fell off Fast and Furious at Dove and the q/draw unclipped from the peg.

It's not that uncommon.

duncan

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Pete’s is a good point. Climbing accidents or near misses happen to the very experienced because it’s a numbers game. Most facets of our play have small risks but if you keep spinning the wheel eventually your number will come up. The typical mountain accident features experienced climbers on not very risky routes (p21-25). I take moderate risks (sketchy trad., descending from a big route) two or three times a year, small risks (soloing to the first bolt, or down to a sea-cliff) dozens of times, and tiny risks (tying in, clipping the autobelay) 1000s of times. Which is more dangerous? It's worth addressing apparently trivial risks if you take them frequently.

I've seen the rope unclipping from a carabiner twice, Mike Highbury on Fish Supper and me on Sunkist, both big falls where other pieces had pulled. I appreciate this is not sport climbing, a zipper fall introduces a whole lot of weirdness, but it's a reminder the system is not infallible. On U.K. sport routes we frequently have “all our eggs in one basket”. It's worth considering locking carabiners on draws when there is one piece between you and the ground. It's unrealistic to use screwgates on a really tenuous clip but why not if you're pre-clipping the first or second bolt? Or use one of the quick locking carabiners, like this perhaps? Not played with one personally, interested if anyone has.

I've never been too impressed with the beta clipsticks. I've used a superclip which worked well and seemed more robust but they're unavailable in the U.K.  Anyone (Munchener?) used the LACD which looks like a superclip head on a tent pole.

TobyD

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Pete’s is a good point. Climbing accidents or near misses happen to the very experienced because it’s a numbers game. Most facets of our play have small risks but if you keep spinning the wheel eventually your number will come up. The typical mountain accident features experienced climbers on not very risky routes (p21-25). I take moderate risks (sketchy trad., descending from a big route) two or three times a year, small risks (soloing to the first bolt) dozens of times, and tiny risks (tying in, clipping the autobelay) 1000s of times. Which is more dangerous? It's worth addressing apparently trivial risks if you take them frequently.

I've seen the rope unclipping from a carabiner twice, Mike Highbury on Fish Supper and me on Sunkist, both big falls where other pieces had pulled. I appreciate this is not sport climbing, a zipper fall introduces a whole lot of weirdness, but it's a reminder the system is not infallible. On U.K. sport routes we frequently have “all our eggs in one basket”. It's worth considering locking carabiners on draws when there is one piece between you and the ground. It's unrealistic to use screwgates on a really tenuous clip but why not if you're pre-clipping the first or second bolt? Or use one of the quick locking carabiners, like this perhaps? Not played with one personally, interested if anyone has.

I've never been too impressed with the beta clipsticks. I've used a superclip which worked well and seemed more robust but they're unavailable in the U.K.  Anyone (Munchener?) played with the LACD which looks like a superclip style head on a tent pole.

I think beta sticks work fine, for about a year. After that they often deteriorate quickly. if I have to get a new one every month now I'll not really care! It'll probably cheer Paul Reeve up when I buy them all in cragX anyway.

TobyD

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Patch Hammond fell off Rainbow of Recalcitrance and the q/draw unclipped.
Sam Whittaker fell off Fast and Furious at Dove and the q/draw unclipped from the peg.

It's not that uncommon.

Agreed. I have seen this happen 3 times. Two on sport climbing falls. An outdoor ed group kicked ropes out of my gear when i was on the runout on supersonic at high tor once, but that doesn't really count!

petejh

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Sure I've seen it happen at least once too but can't remember the details.
I'm interested in trying out one of those Edelrid sliders in the 3rd clip on Mecca..

nai

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You can prolong a beta stick's life by not extending each section fully every time, especially the top ones.

I have one of those edeldrid clips, works well enough, not too difficult to open although I wouldn't want to make a crucial, desperate clip with it. I always use it as the gear end and a screwgate for the rope. Generally use it as the starting clip but also for equipping so that you're not going to knock a snap gate undone, or at belays where you have to untie and thread the lower off. Quite a useful thing to have on a rack.
Recall ste mac examing it quite quizzically when I was using it for the first on raindogs last year.

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tomtom

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Interesting the rope unclipping/slipping out of the QD. I'd have thought that indoor walls would have this 'issue' resolved for safety purposes... any wall owners/workers shed any light on this?

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Classic at walls is "backclipping" as bolts are so close together. Seen a few people do it, not understand why it's so bad, and then look horrified when you show them.

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Classic at walls is "backclipping" as bolts are so close together.

You mean z-clipping shirley?

SA Chris

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No, when they clip the rope so it goes through the 'biner the wrong way.

Comme ca



(I think, can't watch whole vid)

cheque

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Oh yeah, that's what I think of as backclipping. Not sure why the bolts being close together makes it easier to do? It definitely makes z-clipping easier.

At the old Notts wall they used to (possibly still do) have an extra maillon on each draw so you couldn't backclip as the biner that the rope goes in is 90 degrees to the wall. Not sure if that really makes it any safer as you can't clip the right way either.  :-\

Ascary thing I've come across is bolts where the hangar is horizontal, allowing the draw to turn and make a correctly-clipped draw a backclipped one  :blink:. Obviously it's a consequence of hangers turning after becoming loose a bit but I've seen some glue-ins placed horizontally as well.

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Oh yeah, that's what I think of as backclipping. Not sure why the bolts being close together makes it easier to do? It definitely makes z-clipping easier.

At the old Notts wall they used to (possibly still do) have an extra maillon on each draw so you couldn't backclip as the biner that the rope goes in is 90 degrees to the wall. Not sure if that really makes it any safer as you can't clip the right way either.  :-\

Ascary thing I've come across is bolts where the hangar is horizontal, allowing the draw to turn and make a correctly-clipped draw a backclipped one  :blink:. Obviously it's a consequence of hangers turning after becoming loose a bit but I've seen some glue-ins placed horizontally as well.

I z clipped once in a nest of cams before the headwall of Warpath, turbo-drag the like of which I hope to never feel again, had to stop at little rests to pull through the required bits of slack. Fell off.

TobyD

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Events like quickdraws unclipping from bolts/rope unclipping from quickdraws are extremely rare - total guestimate around 1-in-100,000 clips. But the more you climb...


I like the idea of the locking dmm revolvers for bolts you have clipsticked.

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I climbed past a QuickDraw and it unclipped on a long runout in the Verdon once. Very scary at the time, on reflection it must have been due to the draw twisting. Hi Toby  :wave:

Johnny Brown

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I like the idea of the locking dmm revolvers for bolts you have clipsticked.

I wouldn't use a revolver on the first bolt - it will increase the fall distance due to less friction, and increase the force on the belayer, at the point in the climb when both are least desirable.

You can't do a screwgate up remotely either. Surely one of those new double-gate designs must work with a clipstick?

Paul B

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That accepted, don't they make a lot of difference on the first bolt as there's often a reasonable change in direction due to the belayer being out from the cliff? Where do you think they best serve their purpose, changes in angle / direction / crux (reduced wear on the rope)?

I forgot my sling-draws had revolvers on them last year and fluffed a spaced out section. I was very surprised with how far I fell.

Johnny Brown

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I've never used them sport climbing so maybe not the man to ask. Cowboyhat borrowed a couple for some marginal gains on Mecca extension, but I don't know which bolts he used them on. I appreciate the first bolt can cause drag but I suspect better belaying can solve most of it as it's the one bolt with no rope drag below it.

But yes, changes in angle. I carry 4 or 5 mostly on sling draws for trad and winter, which generally get used on runners off to the side, under roofs or spaced on long easy sections.

For the rope wear I normally see sport climbers with, it's a case of hammering one end which is fairly unavoidable. The cure is to just cut it off earlier.

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I used two at Dulas for drag and change of direction. Quite spicey there as the ground is closeish.

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Z-clipping makes you stronger. Just ask Richie Crouch.

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Good article. I will pre-clip first 2 or even occasionally 3 bolts if it will save me from danger of a ground fall, every time. Have been sniffed at once or twice but I don't care, I'm climbing for my own enjoyment and fulfilment. Unless someone is trashing the rock, putting themselves in danger through inexperience or ruining everyone else's enjoyment at the crag by loud music or something, I'd never think to comment on someone's style of ascent or approach. It's none of my business - I take the view that my climbing is none of theirs.

Have never seen the rope unclipping thing but food for thought, does make me think about wearing a helmet sport climbing, have seen it more often more recently (especially in Europe).

Luke Owens

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I always have the first in no matter how easy the route. 2nd in generally on hard (for me) redpoints if it's hard to clip.

Anyone listen to the recent Moffat interview with Björn Pohl?

They discuss stick clipping first bolts; Jerry's opinion was that it should be expected that climbing is dangerous and if you're likely to fall off going for the first bolt you should climb something easier. He seemed completely againist it even for the safety aspect. Struck me as a bit daft but I guess it's because things were just different back then.

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Would wearing a helmet not mitigate consequences of decking from first second/bolt? I agree that second bolts should be placed (if possible) close enough to the first to avoid the risk of decking when clipping it. But stick clipping bolts is not just a matter of faff v safety. The fact is, that on lots of routes clipping the bolts adds significantly to the difficulty - pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best. Someone doing a short intense route (ie lots of UK routes) with the first 2 or 3 pre clipped is reducing the physical challenge, not just increasing safety margin. Saying everyone do their own thing is only makes sense if we accept that everyone's not taking on the same challenge (physical not mental). Taken to the extreme why not just be happy to top rope a route clean?

Helmets on sport routes seem a better option than pre clipping 2 or more bolts (to me, obviously all this is a completely personal decision)

Sorry this is all a bit rambling

T_B

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It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter. I can think of two examples where I pre-clipped the second bolt (Caviar and Raindogs). With Caviar it makes it easier to have it pre-clipped, but saves cocking up and breaking your ankles. With Raindogs it saves you breaking your ankles and maybe makes it a little bit easier, but it's more the worry of skating off the footholds than having the bolt pre-clipped. I don't view sport climbing as an area of climbing where I like to take risks, my head's not in that zone. If I want to risk breaking my ankles/getting a hole in my head I go tradding. Maybe for the very top people pushing 9b+ it might be a cause for comment, but to be honest I'm even surprised this is being discussed. You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

T_B

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Helmets on sport routes seem a better option than pre clipping 2 or more bolts (to me, obviously all this is a completely personal decision)


What, placed at the bottom in the hope that you'll land on one, it'll break your fall and stop you breaking your ankles?

Duma

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Woah, chill out T_B, was just musing.
It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter.
  ;)

If you want to remove all the risk when sport climbing why not top rope? (serious question, would it "not count"? If so how many bolts pre clipped mean it wouldn't count? Why wouldn't it count?)

Head injuries are much more likely to be life changing than breaking an ankle, and the risk of such is somewhat mitigated by a helmet.

You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

Climbing full stop doesn't really matter after all
:kiss2:



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Saying everyone do their own thing is only makes sense if we accept that everyone's not taking on the same challenge (physical not mental).

Have we not accepted that already? In case nobody has noticed we're all different shapes and sizes, we all wear different shoes, our draws are different lengths, and the temperature/humidity/wind is not constant.

I can think of two examples where I pre-clipped the second bolt (Caviar and Raindogs). With Caviar it makes it easier to have it pre-clipped, but saves cocking up and breaking your ankles.

Technically I think you had the third bolt clipped on Caviar. But that's the one everyone does it with, I think on of the first two bolts was a later addition, a dogging bolt maybe, or at least that's what I was told.

T_B

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Woah, chill out T_B, was just musing.
It's sport climbing FFS. It doesn't really matter.
  ;)

If you want to remove all the risk when sport climbing why not top rope? (serious question, would it "not count"? If so how many bolts pre clipped mean it wouldn't count? Why wouldn't it count?)

Head injuries are much more likely to be life changing than breaking an ankle, and the risk of such is somewhat mitigated by a helmet.

You know what you've done and if you choose to have the 3rd clipped on the lip of Chimes then fine with me, so long as you don't make out you're the next Yuji.

Climbing full stop doesn't really matter after all
:kiss2:

I don't see there being much risk leading sport routes, as you're clipping bolts. It's supposed to be very safe as far as I'm concerned. Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Breaking an ankle can be fairly life changing actually*. Of course not as much as a serious head injury, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of what it might mean to someone who is keen on sport and needlessly (in my view, if they're sport climbing and deck out due to not stick-clipping) breaks an ankle.

*I should point out that both my wife and I have broken ankles climbing. Hers is what's technically known as f*ct and means she can't run on it, nor even walk properly. She can still climb, luckily. I was incredibly lucky not to have a worse injury, but am now paying for my stupidity since getting into fell running. So, please excuse me not being completely chilled out, when I read 'musing' comments that I think are a bit daft!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 12:16:09 pm by T_B »

T_B

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Technically I think you had the third bolt clipped on Caviar. But that's the one everyone does it with, I think on of the first two bolts was a later addition, a dogging bolt maybe, or at least that's what I was told.

Right you are Dave. It's a good example in that it makes a point. It's a bit of a cheat having the 3rd clipped, but most people do and as it's a lowly 8a+ no-one is going to care. It's not like some youth has claimed a ground up E10 but it transpires crucial gear was pre-placed.

Johnny Brown

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Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Bollocks. The risk of banging your head in a fall is obviously lower when falling top-roping compared to lead. Anchor failure is mostly a theoretical risk a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. And I can't think of any sport routes that rely on a single bolt lower-off. And if one exists back it up.

T_B

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Did I say anchor failure? Sorry, didn't mean that really. No, I'm thinking pilot error.

There are enough anecdotes (swinging into features/the ground on steep routes, unclipping the belay having not backclipped the last bolt). Top roping (invariably steep) sport routes gives me the heebeejeebies. I'd always prefer to be on lead, personally.


Oldmanmatt

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Quote
Top roping isn't safer, it's more dangerous (you're relying on one anchor).

Bollocks. The risk of banging your head in a fall is obviously lower when falling top-roping compared to lead. Anchor failure is mostly a theoretical risk a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. And I can't think of any sport routes that rely on a single bolt lower-off. And if one exists back it up.

I agree, qualified by knowing of and witnessing so many serious fuckups on top-rope over the last 30 years. I think it gives a false sense of security.
Classic mistake that I've seen twice personally, once with a nasty outcome (although not tragic); is forgetting to do up your harness/tie in.
Didn't Destivile or Isabel, do something similar in the '80s?

There was also the big fat French dude, climbing with his young (12/13 ish) son in the Ardeche. He was climbing, lad belaying, he slipped high on the route. Son shoots up 10m or so as physics does it's thing, panics and lets go of rope and both took a 10m groud fall.
So, yeah, safer, but...


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Johnny Brown

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I agree top-roping doesn't work very well on overhanging ground, but British sport climbing is not 'invariably steep'. Far from it.

But suggesting leading is safer because you somehow 'take it more seriously' is utter bollocks. It's just not up for debate.

Do you let inexperienced climbers lead in your wall Matt? No. Because it's more dangerous.

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I agree top-roping doesn't work very well on overhanging ground, but British sport climbing is not 'invariably steep'. Far from it.

But suggesting leading is safer because you somehow 'take it more seriously' is utter bollocks. It's just not up for debate.

Do you let inexperienced climbers lead in your wall Matt? No. Because it's more dangerous.
No, no! I said I agree with you. But it gives me the heebi-jeebies when people assume top roping is safe.
And they do.
Even quite experienced climbers get blasé about it, I have in the past. Some of the rigs I've seen set up by climbers (non-instructors) when introducing a mate to climbing are the stuff of nightmares...


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SA Chris

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[quote author=Oldmanmatt link=topic=28054.msg552104#msg552104
Classic mistake that I've seen twice personally, once with a nasty outcome (although not tragic); is forgetting to do up your harness/tie in.
Didn't Destivile or Isabel, do something similar in the '80s?

[/quote]

Lynne Hill. Not that it's particularly relevant to the discussion. It you forget to tie in, it doesn't matter if you preclip one bolt, twelve  bolts or toprope.

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They discuss stick clipping first bolts; Jerry's opinion was that it should be expected that climbing is dangerous and if you're likely to fall off going for the first bolt you should climb something easier. He seemed completely againist it even for the safety aspect. Struck me as a bit daft but I guess it's because things were just different back then.

I spoke to Jerry about Verbal Abuse recently. He said he'd be happy for it to be bolted, but only if the bolts were where the pegs were "to keep it spicy". It is a generational thing, that if you were coming into sport climbing when the bolts were bad, you were using double ropes and climbing them as trad routes with some fixed gear you're on a totally different game to what modern sport climbing is about.

WRT toproping - who cares? The grade is for a physical difficulty, and fair enough it might be slightly harder if you're making the clips, but I don't really give a monkeys what anyone does and wants to call a tick.

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I have one of those edeldrid clips, works well enough, not too difficult to open although I wouldn't want to make a crucial, desperate clip with it. I always use it as the gear end and a screwgate for the rope. Generally use it as the starting clip but also for equipping so that you're not going to knock a snap gate undone, or at belays where you have to untie and thread the lower off. Quite a useful thing to have on a rack.

Used one in anger last weekend. Easy to clip gear with but I struggled to get a rope in one handed. This chap manages, perhaps I need more practice. As you say, it's ideal on the first bolt: works well with a clipstick, locking automatically when released.



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Would wearing a helmet not mitigate consequences of decking from first second/bolt?
Sorry this is all a bit rambling

I just looked back at this thread, thanks for all the contributions everyone. Mainly I just wanted to get people to think about what risks they actually take, and not to be sniffy about the choices of others with all the usual provisos of honesty, not being antisocial etc.
Duma, I think I covered your point in the article? If I'd had a helmet on, I am pretty certain I'd still have fractured my right wrist, which still hurts a year later, and sustained serious concussion at best. This often results in the grim fatigue which I've had anyway, and can have significant neurological consequences; the long term results of concussion are not fully understood as far as I know. I'll go for a clipstick in future for myself, I think.

 

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