[TobyD]

Hopefully this will help someone, read if you have time and ever tie in:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=9367

Sorry Simon, I know it's on the other side, but hopefully it'll help someone out there not to have an accident.

[Will Hunt]

In the accompanying thread on the other channel, somebody mentioned that two people climbing Yosemite Wall yesterday were given grief for using a clipstick. Unbelievable. 

[changement]

Great article and all the best for a swift recovery.

Regarding stick clipping, I can definitely empathise. I'm pretty happy with long run outs in routes and will take lobs all day long provided the first 1-2 bolts are pre-clipped. However, before getting these two clipped, I am totally gripped and basically turn in to a shaking wreck. This comes from what I consider an entirely rational fear of the ground (which I've hit before, thankfully never as bad as the OP).

Yet I often feel self-concious (this could easily be my own personal paranoia) that other people at the crag are judging me for having so many clips in (I'll have 3 if I think it's needed, my regular partner is significantly lighter than me and will usually go straight up to the first draw if I fall). This feeling is particularly prevalent when I do some of the shorter Malham/Kilnsey routes where a degree of the difficulty does come from clipping. I feel, and suspect other people think that the send is somehow cheapened because I have more than the minimum pre-clipped.

And if I'm honest it is, it's both physically and psychologically easier to do some of these routes with an extra draw in.. something that used to bother me a great deal until I decided climbing is a game where you can choose the rules. For me sport climbing is about the physical experience and none of the risk and I'm therefore now happy to do routes in the style I think is safe and enjoy. If it means that the grade decreases or its somehow considered invalid by certain people, I'm okay with that.

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[TobyD]

Great article and all the best for a swift recovery.

Regarding stick clipping,
And if I'm honest it is, it's both physically and psychologically easier to do some of these routes with an extra draw in.. ... For me sport climbing is about the physical experience and none of the risk and I'm therefore now happy to do routes in the style I think is safe and enjoy. If it means that the grade decreases or its somehow considered invalid by certain people, I'm okay with that​

My feeling is that I am honest with myself: I try to question whether I'm clipping for safety or to make it easier. My definition of acceptable risk may now have changed...

[monkoffunk]

I stick clip for safety and occasionally to make it easier to work a route. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

[Will Hunt]

Those people who were apparently telling someone off for stick clipping were apparently just bemoaning the bolting on Yorkshire limestone. Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?


Just to play devil's advocate, would somebody who skipped the clip on one of these tricky to clip things be considered to have done the route? When Indra skips clips on Spanish pump fests, should he be sent back around?

[duncan]

Hopefully this will help someone, read if you have time and ever tie in:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=9367

Sorry Simon, I know it's on the other side, but hopefully it'll help someone out there not to have an accident.

Sobering piece. Published in the right place and worthy of wide circulation.

[cheque]

That's a brave and thought-provoking article Toby. Thanks man.

I stick clip for safety and occasionally to make it easier to work a route. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

  Sport climbing innit.

Those people who were apparently telling someone off for stick clipping were apparently just bemoaning the bolting on Yorkshire limestone.

That sounds a lot more likely. 

Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?

I associate having a high first bolt with safe bolting though- making the first bolt high so that everyone clipsticks it then having quite a short distance before the second bolt is certainly considered the best approach in the places I've climbed in the US. Fully-permadrawed routes over there will always have the first bolt without a perma for this reason. It's an approach that assumes that everyone takes a clipstick to the crag though.

[TobyD]

Apparently Yosemite Wall and Appetite have a poorly/sparsely bolted start?

Difficult balance here. YW is the original line. The bolt is high ish (4m?) But the climbing is easy (NB still fall off able, as I demonstrated) but it is a long diagonal. So to strip it you would hit the ground if it was lower, even with Steve Crowes well placed fixed draw. Perhaps a belay/ stripping bolt is a good idea? Sport climbers should understand why and the process involved?

[WilliCrater]

A little while ago, whilst pre-clipping the second bolt of a 7c route I was (and still am) attempting to red-point, I over heard another climber stage whisper to his mate "isn't that cheating".  The amusing irony being they then both went on to top-rope a neighbouring 5a route.

Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.

[TobyD]

Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.

boom boom, the old ones are the best ones eh?

WRT your anecdote, ain't that always the way. I have started with 2 clipped on several significant routes to me. I'd tell anyone who was bored enough to ask, the act of doing this hurt neither myself or anyone else. Ergo, it's basically fine.
Things done for the sake of making the route easier, and then covered up concealed, or fully lied about on the other hand deserve some proper bad karma

[WilliCrater]

Nowt so queer as folk - as my grandma was fond of saying.  Until my grandad glued her false teeth together, that is.

boom boom, the old ones are the best ones eh?

WRT your anecdote, ain't that always the way. I have started with 2 clipped on several significant routes to me. I'd tell anyone who was bored enough to ask, the act of doing this hurt neither myself or anyone else. Ergo, it's basically fine.
Things done for the sake of making the route easier, and then covered up concealed, or fully lied about on the other hand deserve some proper bad karma

Absolutely.  No problems with top-roping incidentally.  Often use it on first few forays on projects to get an initial idea of what to do.

[Will Hunt]

This popped up on Steve Mac's Facebook just now.

So the perfect weather finally broke, that run of 50% humidity turned to 90% with a damp drizzle. Still, we turned up, because you have to. But still a good effort, I made the final clip before the crux slap, almost dropping the clip and taking the fall, and then just didn't quite hold the slap. Then sat on the rope I looked down in horror to see the previous clip somehow wasn't clipped. For sure I had clipped it, others had noted, and then somehow it 'undid' itself. If I'd dropped the clip before the crux I'd have been on the ground from 20m. Food for thought before my next effort...

I know it's not related but this is one of the things that gets me about Malham sport routes. They're short and sometimes have little run outs on them for sustained sequency bits. A lot of the time your eggs are in one basket, so to speak. If the bolt, or more likely the quickdraw, below you fails somehow then you're fucked. Grim. I always wear a helmet when sport climbing and feel like a bit of a div doing so at Malham. Stuff like this makes me feel better about making that decision.

[petejh]

Agreed, it makes you look like a div but so what.

Events like quickdraws unclipping from bolts/rope unclipping from quickdraws are extremely rare - total guestimate around 1-in-100,000 clips. But the more you climb...
If you climb as much as Steve Mac something's going to occur at some point, just glad he made that clip!

[jwi]

I had a quickdraw unclip below me on Le Plaisir qui démonte in Gorges du Tarn. I noticed as I got ready for a pretty aléatoire slap just before the next draw. Afterwards I hung two draws on the bolt

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[highrepute]

I had the rope unclip from a draw on Frankenstein at malham, pretty scary when you consider the length of the route. The problem was a dirty wire gate krabs. The gate could stick open so the rope lifted out. Not a problem with solid gates because they are heavy but worth checking your wire gates especially if they are old or you've been to a dirty crag.

[T_B]

Patch Hammond fell off Rainbow of Recalcitrance and the q/draw unclipped.
Sam Whittaker fell off Fast and Furious at Dove and the q/draw unclipped from the peg.

It's not that uncommon.

[duncan]

Pete’s is a good point. Climbing accidents or near misses happen to the very experienced because it’s a numbers game. Most facets of our play have small risks but if you keep spinning the wheel eventually your number will come up. The typical mountain accident features experienced climbers on not very risky routes (p21-25). I take moderate risks (sketchy trad., descending from a big route) two or three times a year, small risks (soloing to the first bolt, or down to a sea-cliff) dozens of times, and tiny risks (tying in, clipping the autobelay) 1000s of times. Which is more dangerous? It's worth addressing apparently trivial risks if you take them frequently.

I've seen the rope unclipping from a carabiner twice, Mike Highbury on Fish Supper and me on Sunkist, both big falls where other pieces had pulled. I appreciate this is not sport climbing, a zipper fall introduces a whole lot of weirdness, but it's a reminder the system is not infallible. On U.K. sport routes we frequently have “all our eggs in one basket”. It's worth considering locking carabiners on draws when there is one piece between you and the ground. It's unrealistic to use screwgates on a really tenuous clip but why not if you're pre-clipping the first or second bolt? Or use one of the quick locking carabiners, like this perhaps? Not played with one personally, interested if anyone has.

I've never been too impressed with the beta clipsticks. I've used a superclip which worked well and seemed more robust but they're unavailable in the U.K.  Anyone (Munchener?) used the LACD which looks like a superclip head on a tent pole.

[TobyD]

Pete’s is a good point. Climbing accidents or near misses happen to the very experienced because it’s a numbers game. Most facets of our play have small risks but if you keep spinning the wheel eventually your number will come up. The typical mountain accident features experienced climbers on not very risky routes (p21-25). I take moderate risks (sketchy trad., descending from a big route) two or three times a year, small risks (soloing to the first bolt) dozens of times, and tiny risks (tying in, clipping the autobelay) 1000s of times. Which is more dangerous? It's worth addressing apparently trivial risks if you take them frequently.

I've seen the rope unclipping from a carabiner twice, Mike Highbury on Fish Supper and me on Sunkist, both big falls where other pieces had pulled. I appreciate this is not sport climbing, a zipper fall introduces a whole lot of weirdness, but it's a reminder the system is not infallible. On U.K. sport routes we frequently have “all our eggs in one basket”. It's worth considering locking carabiners on draws when there is one piece between you and the ground. It's unrealistic to use screwgates on a really tenuous clip but why not if you're pre-clipping the first or second bolt? Or use one of the quick locking carabiners, like this perhaps? Not played with one personally, interested if anyone has.

I've never been too impressed with the beta clipsticks. I've used a superclip which worked well and seemed more robust but they're unavailable in the U.K.  Anyone (Munchener?) played with the LACD which looks like a superclip style head on a tent pole.

I think beta sticks work fine, for about a year. After that they often deteriorate quickly. if I have to get a new one every month now I'll not really care! It'll probably cheer Paul Reeve up when I buy them all in cragX anyway.

[TobyD]

Patch Hammond fell off Rainbow of Recalcitrance and the q/draw unclipped.
Sam Whittaker fell off Fast and Furious at Dove and the q/draw unclipped from the peg.

It's not that uncommon.

Agreed. I have seen this happen 3 times. Two on sport climbing falls. An outdoor ed group kicked ropes out of my gear when i was on the runout on supersonic at high tor once, but that doesn't really count!

[petejh]

Sure I've seen it happen at least once too but can't remember the details.
I'm interested in trying out one of those Edelrid sliders in the 3rd clip on Mecca..

[nai]

You can prolong a beta stick's life by not extending each section fully every time, especially the top ones.

I have one of those edeldrid clips, works well enough, not too difficult to open although I wouldn't want to make a crucial, desperate clip with it. I always use it as the gear end and a screwgate for the rope. Generally use it as the starting clip but also for equipping so that you're not going to knock a snap gate undone, or at belays where you have to untie and thread the lower off. Quite a useful thing to have on a rack.
Recall ste mac examing it quite quizzically when I was using it for the first on raindogs last year.

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[tomtom]

Interesting the rope unclipping/slipping out of the QD. I'd have thought that indoor walls would have this 'issue' resolved for safety purposes... any wall owners/workers shed any light on this?

[SA Chris]

Classic at walls is "backclipping" as bolts are so close together. Seen a few people do it, not understand why it's so bad, and then look horrified when you show them.

[cheque]

Classic at walls is "backclipping" as bolts are so close together.

You mean z-clipping shirley?