[Luke Owens]

Lately I've been out on rock a lot instead of indoors and apart from doing antag/core type stuff on my lunch break I have been neglecting max hangs.

I got some good gains a couple of months back doing them them twice a week before my normal wall session on Tues and Thurs consistently every week.

I think subconsciously I've been neglecting them to be as fresh as possible for my sessions on rock.

Ideally I want to carry on with them and make further progression but not sure when is best to do them? When do others fit them in?

I'm usually climbing Tue, Thur and Sun. I don't feel just going bouldering has ever been enough to significantly increase my finger strength.

I read somewhere that 2 - 3 days rest are required from max hangs due to the stress it puts on the nervous system. This doesn't leave much time in a week if you did nothing for three days after some hangs...

Would doing them the day after climbing have a negative effect on recovery from the previous days climbing and also not be classed as max due to being tired from the day before?

Would doing them on lunch the same day as going out in the evening mean I'd be too tired when climbing later that day?

Would going climbing the day after max hangs inhibit the gains I would get if I had just rested instead?

Cheers

[thekettle]

Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

I do max hangs in the morning, before breakfast and reward myself with a coffee. No max hangs - no coffee.
I try and do them after a day off (hard) climbing, and only do core stuff/antag later that day. The day after I'll happily climb or train, but avoid crimpy bouldering. For reference this is my third year of max hangs 1-2 times weekly (weakly). I used to need more rest that I do now after them.

[Muenchener]

Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

[T_B]

Are u prioritising training or climbing. If the former then lunch before, if the latter then after climbing. I sometimes do em at lunch, an evening bouldering session maybe I'm reduced to 90%, the bigger issue is my evening session is shortened as I tire quickly (am 41).

(A positive spin off from doing lunch max hangs is shorter warm up required for evening).

[dave]

For last couple of winters I've regularly done max hang sessions on say a mon and weds, then done a board session on the tues and thurs, with seemingly no noticeable negative impact on the board session. Everyone is different though, but I think a 3 day rest after max hangs seems a bit overkill.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers guys

Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

Cheers, I'll check the podcast out.

Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

Haha, It's just I have a good memory for moves, not really a guru...I saw really positive results from doing hangs for a couple of months. Went from barely being able to hang a 20mm edge to being able to hang it for 10s with 15kg added in quite a short period in time. Outside I felt it made loads of difference, I could do moves I couldn't before.

Are u prioritising training or climbing. If the former then lunch before, if the latter then after climbing. I sometimes do em at lunch, an evening bouldering session maybe I'm reduced to 90%, the bigger issue is my evening session is shortened as I tire quickly (am 41).

(A positive spin off from doing lunch max hangs is shorter warm up required for evening).

I was prioritising training but I've got myself psyched for a local venue that's easy to get to when the little 'uns are in bed. I was thinking of doing them on lunch the same day as climbing but was more worried that the climbing would ruin the recovery from the max hangs? Maybe I'm just over thinking it...

For last couple of winters I've regularly done max hang sessions on say a mon and weds, then done a board session on the tues and thurs, with seemingly no noticeable negative impact on the board session. Everyone is different though, but I think a 3 day rest after max hangs seems a bit overkill.

Sounds good Dave, I must admit I like the sound of doing them on a seperate day. Similar to the above I was thinking it might just not be enough rest to get the most gains out of all the sessions going from the less is more point of view... Should probably just give it a go and see how I get on.

[Duma]

Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

I do max hangs in the morning, before breakfast and reward myself with a coffee. No max hangs - no coffee.
I try and do them after a day off (hard) climbing, and only do core stuff/antag later that day. The day after I'll happily climb or train, but avoid crimpy bouldering. For reference this is my third year of max hangs 1-2 times weekly (weakly). I used to need more rest that I do now after them.

Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

Haha, It's just I have a good memory for moves, not really a guru...

not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

[Luke Owens]

not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

Haha, I did wonder. Don't worry Duma I'm under no illusion that I'm a guru of anything.

[Muenchener]

not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

Haha, I did wonder. Don't worry Duma I'm under no illusion that I'm a guru of anything.

I didn't like to come right out and say it, but yes. I have no opinion either way on whether or not Luke is a well known movement guru.

[Nibile]

I haven't gone through the entire discussion with attention, because I'm very busy enjoying perfect weather in the Dolomites  , but I've noticed that a max hangs session focused on half crimps doesn't leave me particularly wrecked, and I can climb after one day off. On the other hand, if I mix half crimps and some drags, my forearms are exploded for up to four days.
Currently I'm enjoying doing front3 and back3 one arm hangs. One max hang followed by one submax hang, x 5 x each prehension.
Some two finger and monos work at the end. Job done.

[BicepsMou]

Would going climbing the day after max hangs inhibit the gains I would get if I had just rested instead?

 

That’s an interesting one, and there seem to be different opinions around.
Anderson Bros would probably say <<yes>>, as they recommend to do pure strength (HB) phases with as little combined climbing sessions as possible, IIRC. Their argument being that the body can only handle so much adaptions at a time and splitting the adaption and recovery potential btw. different stimuli reduces the effects.

Fair point on paper. However, my personal experience is that if I mix in middle to low intensity climbing (no extreme volumes) with HB, the adaptions transfer much better into actual climbing.

For one, the climbing sessions facilitate an ongoing integration of the augmented strength potential into adapted movement patterns. And also, my subjective feeling is that this kind of active recovery helps with strength development as well. Not sure if my memory cheats me, but I think that Tommy made a similar point in an interview/podcast, saying that low intensity work helps developing strength in combination with a high intensity main stimulus (such as HB).

[cha1n]

Nothing to input but keen to bump the thread as I've currently been doing an hour of max hangs (including warm-ups and core/antag during rests between reps) followed by an hour of maximal bouldering. It seemed to be working well and be very efficient but I'm now getting finger 'niggles', so am worried I'm over doing it.

Is having even 10 hours rest between FB and climbing (from morning to evening) enough or is most of the recovery happening overnight whilst sleeping? It's bloody hard to not want to climb after max hangs as you feel like you've done bugger all!

[Krank]

the best finger strength gains i ever had were from doing something similar to cha1n.
 
Monday- max hangs (4x4), followed by an hour on the board (10 attempts of hard problems)
tues- board session
thursday-max hangs (4x4), followed by a 1 hour board session (10 attempts of hard problems)

has anyone ever had any success/experience with a "greasing the groove" approach to finger strength?

[thekettle]

Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

Assuming this is referring to me, I'm not averse to training, and see good results when done appropriately, like everyone else. I've just found that because it's easy to quantify and make measurable gains in physical fitness (and there's lots of good advice freely available), many folk are drawn to it as an 'easy target' for improvement, long before it's really a priority. It's easy to neglect technical/psychological improvements because they're so hard to pin down, measure results in, or find good quality information on. That's probably why appear I to focus on movement/tactics when coaching - I'm trying to fill in the biggest gaps in peoples knowledge.
Apologies for the OT.

[Murph]

Hey Luke, here's my two pee:

I've had pretty good results from basically prioritising fingerboarding as the thing I put effort into, at home, convenient, and I really enjoy it. The climbing is then sort of an ancillary exercise to that, and I look to get low intensity high volume to just enjoy climbing, so easy circuits at the wall or easy problems outside. But not anything hard mind you.

The key here is that fatigue has no place in strength training. It isn't about feeling the burn or pump or anything like that. After training strength you should sort of feel like you haven't done anything. Except you have, of course, and the numbers don't lie. Im a believer that training after you've finished is just delaying your recovery. Do it if you want of course but know there is a price you're paying.

So it's great - not a very long session, easy to fit in after kids in bed and packed lunches made - leaving you time to do the things you find fun. Much better, for someone in my situation, of full time this and that, than having to do endless sessions.

Current routine is FB tues, thurs, sun evening. If I get a climb on those days too then great. But it's not all that important. For my goals it's all about the fingers.

Context: I am genuinely the shittest climber I personally know. I've backed off Hard Severes, many times, I have no stamina and almost can't climb anything without endless beta. But yet I've climbed 7B.

[Muenchener]

Not OT if it's answering a direct question, Mr Kettle. Thanks for the considered response.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers for all the replies. It looks like everyone has some sort of gains from, doing them before a session, after a session and on consecutive day's "on". It makes sense like the Andersons suggest and a few of you have said you'd get the most gains from the hangs if you don't inhibit the rest.

I guess the tricky part is finding a balance of not having too little rest and not ever getting to go climbing.

[metalens]

I actually find that if I keep the volume low, max hangs only help to improve my climbing in the rest of the day / the day after. They seem to really help get the forearm flexors firing before I go out climbing.

FWIW, I have heard of a few other strong climbers specifically doing this sort of thing before they make the drive out to the crag because it is so hard to warm up properly outdoors.

[Nibile]

It works indeed like that. Most of the times.
But when it works like that, it's more a matter of recruitment rather than training in strict sense.
The gains last very little and are mostly due to CNS recruitment.
Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

[Luke Owens]

Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

Isn't your board the Holy Grail Nibs? 

On the hangs front I've been doing them the day before a climbing day and haven't experienced any impact on the climbing session. How much going climbing the day after the hangs is inhibiting the gains from the hangs I have no idea.

I usually climb Tue, Thur and Sun. Should probably do hangs more on a Friday as that leaves a rest day before Sunday... Currently doing them on Monday.

[Sasquatch]

Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

Isn't your board the Holy Grail Nibs? 

On the hangs front I've been doing them the day before a climbing day and haven't experienced any impact on the climbing session. How much going climbing the day after the hangs is inhibiting the gains from the hangs I have no idea.

I usually climb Tue, Thur and Sun. Should probably do hangs more on a Friday as that leaves a rest day before Sunday... Currently doing them on Monday.

Are you seeing steady and progressive gains?
If so, then great.  If not, then you're wasting time, unless  you are doing them as a finger strength maintenance activity. 

[yetix]

Reviving this in hope that someone could provide a little insight.

I'm approaching the end of a fitness phase and about to move into a strength phase.

I'm planning to climb on a board tuesdays, limit boulder thursdays and get outside limit bouldering at the weekend (got to continue being the weekend warrior) - much like the OP

My question is would it be better to do max hangs for strength gains on say monday/wednesday as Dave mentions or in the mornings of say tuesday/thursday to improve recruitment?

Thanks

[SimonB]

From my experience, a lot of it is down to how "trained" you are. For the first few sessions of finger boarding after a break I climb very badly if i try to climb after the session.

However after a period of finger boarding I can happiley Boulder before the fingerboard session then do some Aerobic work after.

[T_B]

I'm a believer in fingerboard training (repeaters or max hangs) as 'recruitment' the day before a hard bouldering session. Anecdotally I often climb better/feel stronger if I've done a short deadhanging session the day before.

[monkoffunk]

I'm a believer in fingerboard training (repeaters or max hangs) as 'recruitment' the day before a hard bouldering session. Anecdotally I often climb better/feel stronger if I've done a short deadhanging session the day before.

I find that too. Not done finger boarding but certainly light bouldering. How much less than a full session do you do? Hard to balance doing enough and too much.

[Luke Owens]

Just thinking about this after seeing the thread pop up.

On Sat and Sun just gone I training max hangs and some endurance stuff on the fingerboard for a couple of hours both days. Went out bouldering on Monday even though my forearms felt pretty worked and felt really strong (for me) and recruited. Didn't feel tired at all, felt like the hangs had helped for sure.

[k2ted]

Similar story for me. Did a short Eva style fingerboard session at lunch today. This evening I went to Brownstones and did a Pigswill eliminate and Pigswill sit start, that I've never managed before YYFY! Never done a fingerboard session and climbed on same day before. Seemed to work for me. As others have said, it's finding a balance and not doing too much.

[moose]

I've found that a quick (15-30 min) fingerboard session is a good warmup for a day of RPing.  My usual pre-crag routine is 6x 7s/3s repeaters on 18mm, 14mm, 12mm, and 10mm edges, then a single 10s hang on a 9mm, 8mm, then a 7mm edge.  I find it reassuring to arrive at the crag feeling I've done harder hangs than anything on my project - and it seems to get me in the zone far better than a desultory trip up Consenting Adults or Open Road (I've done 8a'ish links as a "warm-up" at the crag, having arrived with my fingers pre-tested by a bit of fingerboarding - which given how creaky I feel on a morning seems a pretty good sign).

[Nibile]

I think that there's a difference between recruitment hangs and really max hangs, especially if we consider the latter as a form of training with a long term progression aim.
Recruitment hangs are rarely maximal, and they are project specific, with very little volume.
Max hangs in a training cycle are a different thing, you need the intensity and the volume, and you don't want to simply recruit your CNS or to "grease the groove" for a session, but to keep progressing over a long period of time.
This is much trickier in my opinion.
I got back into fingerboarding more seriously and more constantly in the last weeks, and I figured out four sessions that I do at the beginning of every week, one session per week. They target different aspects.
I try to fingerboard every Monday, after taking Sunday off or doing non fingery stuff. Then Tuesday is off, then usual training the other days but no fingerboarding.
Depending on the session, I need up to four days to recover completely, so I plan my board climbing accordingly.
Not having any rock related goal helps a lot, I don't need to peak for a trip.
HTH.

[tomtom]

Quick Max hangs Q thats not related to the OP, but didn't seem worth a new post...

How often do you up the weight? Been on the same max weight for about 3 weeks now and need to go up.. best to creep it up (e.g. 1-2kg a time)?? or is there a different way to calc weight to add?

(I'm only pulling c.15kg at the moment... I weigh 70)

[andy_e]

I was wondering about this too. Do you need to have a dedicated recalibration session where you find your new max hang weight?

[gme]

I am not the most experienced at hangs having only gotten into them this year but i put the weight up once i can complete a a session.

My sessions are 9 hangs x 7- 10 secs on three minutes. I aim for 10 secs but allow a drop off to 7 secs. If i manage to complete all 9 hangs within these rules i up the weight next session. I normally go up 2 1/2 kg which usually means i will only complete the 1st 4-5 hangs.

I suspect if you have done lots of hanging you will be nearer your max and have to go up in smaller increments.

[monkoffunk]

Not something you'd want to be doing too regularly (edit: full recalibration session I mean)? In Dave Mason's video he adds a little based on how comfortable the previous hang was. I'm guessing there will be some minor variability up and down depending on how you feel on the day. I suppose important thing is logging it to ensure that overall progression is upwards. Not sure how rapidly it should be going up!

[moose]

No science in this (and n=1) but my own regime has been to stick with the same added weight for 3-4 weeks, then, to have a calibration. 

My approach for calibration is to have a curtailed session of max hangs at the "old max weight", to make sure that I am firing on all cylinders  - less hangs than normal, so fatigue does not give a falsely low impression of my capacity.  I then calibrate - trial and error to identify the weight that I can hang for 12-13s on the chosen hold, and use that added weight for the next 3-4 week block of 10s max hangs.

[andy_e]

I like the rigour of that approach moose.

[tomtom]

Cheers Moose - Stubbsy tweeted me a link http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/fingerboarding-for-maximum-strength.html which did something similar...

Though I might try just adding a kg or two every couple of weeks if it feels OK...

[Nibile]

Late reply, sorry.
Looking back at my progression, it took me a few years to get to the current values. I went up by 2 kg increments, judging basically on how good I feel and felt in the previous sessions. It's not scientific at all.
As of late I decided to stick to training at 90% of max, and it gave me good references also about my 100%. I can definitely feel 90% as much easier than 100%, hang times and sets go up quite a notch.
I'll stick to this because I like that it's less condition dependant and can bear more volume. Probably it's a good mix between CNS activation and long term sustainability.

[dave]

Remember the main thing is you need to be having to try bastard hard. If you're completing your sets every time then by definition you can't be trying quite hard enough, so either go longer or heavier. How often that happens is clearly going to differ widely for different people.

[tomtom]

Thanks all - I did a load last year (or before - forgotten) but used my cheaty open handed beastmaker hold and got up to 20kg.. I'm doing this years plan training myself to use the half crimp... and gone up from 10 to 15kg (I think).

They've gone (over the last month) from being only just holding for ten secs trying really hard, to being straightforward - so defo time to chuck some more weight in my weight bag...

[gme]

I guess i am still a bit old school but very much believe that if i dont fail on the last few hangs its not hard enough.
If i manage to complete a whole session i up the weight and do a few more to failure at the end.