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Fitting in max hangs (Read 13910 times)

Luke Owens

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Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 03:44:14 pm
Lately I've been out on rock a lot instead of indoors and apart from doing antag/core type stuff on my lunch break I have been neglecting max hangs.

I got some good gains a couple of months back doing them them twice a week before my normal wall session on Tues and Thurs consistently every week.

I think subconsciously I've been neglecting them to be as fresh as possible for my sessions on rock.

Ideally I want to carry on with them and make further progression but not sure when is best to do them? When do others fit them in?

I'm usually climbing Tue, Thur and Sun. I don't feel just going bouldering has ever been enough to significantly increase my finger strength.

I read somewhere that 2 - 3 days rest are required from max hangs due to the stress it puts on the nervous system. This doesn't leave much time in a week if you did nothing for three days after some hangs...

Would doing them the day after climbing have a negative effect on recovery from the previous days climbing and also not be classed as max due to being tired from the day before?

Would doing them on lunch the same day as going out in the evening mean I'd be too tired when climbing later that day?

Would going climbing the day after max hangs inhibit the gains I would get if I had just rested instead?

Cheers


thekettle

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#1 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 08:00:02 pm
Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

I do max hangs in the morning, before breakfast and reward myself with a coffee. No max hangs - no coffee.
I try and do them after a day off (hard) climbing, and only do core stuff/antag later that day. The day after I'll happily climb or train, but avoid crimpy bouldering. For reference this is my third year of max hangs 1-2 times weekly (weakly). I used to need more rest that I do now after them.

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#2 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 08:20:31 pm
Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

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#3 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 08:24:02 pm
Are u prioritising training or climbing. If the former then lunch before, if the latter then after climbing. I sometimes do em at lunch, an evening bouldering session maybe I'm reduced to 90%, the bigger issue is my evening session is shortened as I tire quickly (am 41).

(A positive spin off from doing lunch max hangs is shorter warm up required for evening).

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#4 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 08:34:57 pm
For last couple of winters I've regularly done max hang sessions on say a mon and weds, then done a board session on the tues and thurs, with seemingly no noticeable negative impact on the board session. Everyone is different though, but I think a 3 day rest after max hangs seems a bit overkill.

Luke Owens

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#5 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 27, 2017, 10:57:13 pm
Cheers guys

Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

Cheers, I'll check the podcast out.

Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

Haha, It's just I have a good memory for moves, not really a guru...I saw really positive results from doing hangs for a couple of months. Went from barely being able to hang a 20mm edge to being able to hang it for 10s with 15kg added in quite a short period in time. Outside I felt it made loads of difference, I could do moves I couldn't before.

Are u prioritising training or climbing. If the former then lunch before, if the latter then after climbing. I sometimes do em at lunch, an evening bouldering session maybe I'm reduced to 90%, the bigger issue is my evening session is shortened as I tire quickly (am 41).

(A positive spin off from doing lunch max hangs is shorter warm up required for evening).

I was prioritising training but I've got myself psyched for a local venue that's easy to get to when the little 'uns are in bed. I was thinking of doing them on lunch the same day as climbing but was more worried that the climbing would ruin the recovery from the max hangs? Maybe I'm just over thinking it...

For last couple of winters I've regularly done max hang sessions on say a mon and weds, then done a board session on the tues and thurs, with seemingly no noticeable negative impact on the board session. Everyone is different though, but I think a 3 day rest after max hangs seems a bit overkill.

Sounds good Dave, I must admit I like the sound of doing them on a seperate day. Similar to the above I was thinking it might just not be enough rest to get the most gains out of all the sessions going from the less is more point of view... Should probably just give it a go and see how I get on.

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#6 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 08:27:21 am
Many questions there. Have listen to the Power Company podcast interviews with Steve Bechtel - might help with deciding how to structure your rest and training.

I do max hangs in the morning, before breakfast and reward myself with a coffee. No max hangs - no coffee.
I try and do them after a day off (hard) climbing, and only do core stuff/antag later that day. The day after I'll happily climb or train, but avoid crimpy bouldering. For reference this is my third year of max hangs 1-2 times weekly (weakly). I used to need more rest that I do now after them.
Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.

Haha, It's just I have a good memory for moves, not really a guru...

not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

Luke Owens

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#7 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 08:50:06 am
not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

Haha, I did wonder. Don't worry Duma I'm under no illusion that I'm a guru of anything.

Muenchener

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#8 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 08:58:38 am
not to piss on yr chips luke, but I think Munch was replying to thekettle...

Haha, I did wonder. Don't worry Duma I'm under no illusion that I'm a guru of anything.

I didn't like to come right out and say it, but yes. I have no opinion either way on whether or not Luke is a well known movement guru.

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#9 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 10:48:03 am
I haven't gone through the entire discussion with attention, because I'm very busy enjoying perfect weather in the Dolomites  8), but I've noticed that a max hangs session focused on half crimps doesn't leave me particularly wrecked, and I can climb after one day off. On the other hand, if I mix half crimps and some drags, my forearms are exploded for up to four days.
Currently I'm enjoying doing front3 and back3 one arm hangs. One max hang followed by one submax hang, x 5 x each prehension.
Some two finger and monos work at the end. Job done.

BicepsMou

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#10 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 01:36:04 pm

Would going climbing the day after max hangs inhibit the gains I would get if I had just rested instead?

 

That’s an interesting one, and there seem to be different opinions around.
Anderson Bros would probably say <<yes>>, as they recommend to do pure strength (HB) phases with as little combined climbing sessions as possible, IIRC. Their argument being that the body can only handle so much adaptions at a time and splitting the adaption and recovery potential btw. different stimuli reduces the effects.

Fair point on paper. However, my personal experience is that if I mix in middle to low intensity climbing (no extreme volumes) with HB, the adaptions transfer much better into actual climbing.

For one, the climbing sessions facilitate an ongoing integration of the augmented strength potential into adapted movement patterns. And also, my subjective feeling is that this kind of active recovery helps with strength development as well. Not sure if my memory cheats me, but I think that Tommy made a similar point in an interview/podcast, saying that low intensity work helps developing strength in combination with a high intensity main stimulus (such as HB).

cha1n

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#11 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 02:54:44 pm
Nothing to input but keen to bump the thread as I've currently been doing an hour of max hangs (including warm-ups and core/antag during rests between reps) followed by an hour of maximal bouldering. It seemed to be working well and be very efficient but I'm now getting finger 'niggles', so am worried I'm over doing it.

Is having even 10 hours rest between FB and climbing (from morning to evening) enough or is most of the recovery happening overnight whilst sleeping? It's bloody hard to not want to climb after max hangs as you feel like you've done bugger all!

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#12 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 03:31:49 pm
the best finger strength gains i ever had were from doing something similar to cha1n.
 
Monday- max hangs (4x4), followed by an hour on the board (10 attempts of hard problems)
tues- board session
thursday-max hangs (4x4), followed by a 1 hour board session (10 attempts of hard problems)

has anyone ever had any success/experience with a "greasing the groove" approach to finger strength?

thekettle

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#13 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 06:56:21 pm
Interesting given that you seem to be quite widely known and recommended as something of a movement/technique guru. Are you seeing positive results from doing pure strength work?

I find myself in a similar situation to Luke - started fingerboarding at home as a substitute when my son was smaller and I often didn't have time to get to the wall; now think it's important in its own right for longer term development, but struggling to find where to fit it in to the weekly schedule without compromising the (even) more important movement related stuff.
Assuming this is referring to me, I'm not averse to training, and see good results when done appropriately, like everyone else. I've just found that because it's easy to quantify and make measurable gains in physical fitness (and there's lots of good advice freely available), many folk are drawn to it as an 'easy target' for improvement, long before it's really a priority. It's easy to neglect technical/psychological improvements because they're so hard to pin down, measure results in, or find good quality information on. That's probably why appear I to focus on movement/tactics when coaching - I'm trying to fill in the biggest gaps in peoples knowledge.
Apologies for the OT.

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#14 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 28, 2017, 10:48:29 pm
Hey Luke, here's my two pee:

I've had pretty good results from basically prioritising fingerboarding as the thing I put effort into, at home, convenient, and I really enjoy it. The climbing is then sort of an ancillary exercise to that, and I look to get low intensity high volume to just enjoy climbing, so easy circuits at the wall or easy problems outside. But not anything hard mind you.

The key here is that fatigue has no place in strength training. It isn't about feeling the burn or pump or anything like that. After training strength you should sort of feel like you haven't done anything. Except you have, of course, and the numbers don't lie. Im a believer that training after you've finished is just delaying your recovery. Do it if you want of course but know there is a price you're paying.

So it's great - not a very long session, easy to fit in after kids in bed and packed lunches made - leaving you time to do the things you find fun. Much better, for someone in my situation, of full time this and that, than having to do endless sessions.

Current routine is FB tues, thurs, sun evening. If I get a climb on those days too then great. But it's not all that important. For my goals it's all about the fingers.

Context: I am genuinely the shittest climber I personally know. I've backed off Hard Severes, many times, I have no stamina and almost can't climb anything without endless beta. But yet I've climbed 7B.

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#15 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 29, 2017, 07:07:19 am
Not OT if it's answering a direct question, Mr Kettle. Thanks for the considered response.

Luke Owens

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#16 Re: Fitting in max hangs
March 29, 2017, 09:44:41 am
Cheers for all the replies. It looks like everyone has some sort of gains from, doing them before a session, after a session and on consecutive day's "on". It makes sense like the Andersons suggest and a few of you have said you'd get the most gains from the hangs if you don't inhibit the rest.

I guess the tricky part is finding a balance of not having too little rest and not ever getting to go climbing.

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#17 Re: Fitting in max hangs
May 09, 2017, 10:11:30 am
I actually find that if I keep the volume low, max hangs only help to improve my climbing in the rest of the day / the day after. They seem to really help get the forearm flexors firing before I go out climbing.

FWIW, I have heard of a few other strong climbers specifically doing this sort of thing before they make the drive out to the crag because it is so hard to warm up properly outdoors.

Nibile

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#18 Re: Fitting in max hangs
May 09, 2017, 01:35:01 pm
It works indeed like that. Most of the times.
But when it works like that, it's more a matter of recruitment rather than training in strict sense.
The gains last very little and are mostly due to CNS recruitment.
Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

Luke Owens

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#19 Re: Fitting in max hangs
May 09, 2017, 03:47:21 pm
Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

Isn't your board the Holy Grail Nibs?  ;D

On the hangs front I've been doing them the day before a climbing day and haven't experienced any impact on the climbing session. How much going climbing the day after the hangs is inhibiting the gains from the hangs I have no idea.

I usually climb Tue, Thur and Sun. Should probably do hangs more on a Friday as that leaves a rest day before Sunday... Currently doing them on Monday.

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#20 Re: Fitting in max hangs
May 10, 2017, 02:06:14 am
Alas, to have long term gains we have to find the magic formula between intensity and volume, that may be a little harder to find than the Holy Grail itself, or a warm up circuit on my board.

Isn't your board the Holy Grail Nibs?  ;D

On the hangs front I've been doing them the day before a climbing day and haven't experienced any impact on the climbing session. How much going climbing the day after the hangs is inhibiting the gains from the hangs I have no idea.

I usually climb Tue, Thur and Sun. Should probably do hangs more on a Friday as that leaves a rest day before Sunday... Currently doing them on Monday.

Are you seeing steady and progressive gains?
If so, then great.  If not, then you're wasting time, unless  you are doing them as a finger strength maintenance activity. 

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#21 Re: Fitting in max hangs
September 14, 2017, 10:03:04 am
Reviving this in hope that someone could provide a little insight.

I'm approaching the end of a fitness phase and about to move into a strength phase.

I'm planning to climb on a board tuesdays, limit boulder thursdays and get outside limit bouldering at the weekend (got to continue being the weekend warrior) - much like the OP

My question is would it be better to do max hangs for strength gains on say monday/wednesday as Dave mentions or in the mornings of say tuesday/thursday to improve recruitment?

Thanks

SimonB

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#22 Re: Fitting in max hangs
October 04, 2017, 01:27:01 pm
From my experience, a lot of it is down to how "trained" you are. For the first few sessions of finger boarding after a break I climb very badly if i try to climb after the session.

However after a period of finger boarding I can happiley Boulder before the fingerboard session then do some Aerobic work after.

T_B

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#23 Re: Fitting in max hangs
October 04, 2017, 02:46:32 pm
I'm a believer in fingerboard training (repeaters or max hangs) as 'recruitment' the day before a hard bouldering session. Anecdotally I often climb better/feel stronger if I've done a short deadhanging session the day before.

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#24 Re: Fitting in max hangs
October 04, 2017, 11:40:22 pm
I'm a believer in fingerboard training (repeaters or max hangs) as 'recruitment' the day before a hard bouldering session. Anecdotally I often climb better/feel stronger if I've done a short deadhanging session the day before.

I find that too. Not done finger boarding but certainly light bouldering. How much less than a full session do you do? Hard to balance doing enough and too much.

 

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