Author Topic: Using a latticeboard  (Read 11075 times)

Online Muenchener

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2017, 03:57:53 pm »
PS have you tested Cubitt? Back when I was at Uni (97ish), a couple of mates were on the UK comp team and the team trainer at the time had them do a foot-on campus session to failure which sounds very similar to the lattice board. With a bit of competitiveness various members of the team pushed the time to three and then four minutes, each exploding off with forearms like piglets. Then Cubitt stepped up. After fifteen minutes he asked if he could get down as he wasn't getting pumped and didn't see the point.

Reminds me of one evening at Broughton some time in the early 90s. I arrived, Tony Ryan was cruising around looking relaxed on the steep bit. I got changed, did my warm ups, started work on some projects ... noticed that about 30 to 40 minutes had passed, and Tony Ryan was still cruising around looking relaxed on the steep bit.
jawohl!

Offline BicepsMou

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2017, 04:38:07 pm »
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Yes, thatíd be very interesting to compare.

However I assume that we are looking at two different energy systems via these two tests:

Lattice board is about aerobic endurance. The intermittent protocol lets the forearm muscles get access to oxygen. So the limiting factors are how much oxygen gets thru (capillary density) and to what degree the muscles can use it (mitochondria density, enzymesÖ).

Sustained hangs on 20mm edge will have the blood flow more or less occluded (for most of us mortals, almost completely occluded. And even for Megos this represents 33% of his MVC). So Iíd guess that this is less about aerobic endurance and more about anaerobic lactic endurance aspects.

W.r.t. relationship between sustained hangs and climbing ability, there is an interesting study by Balas and colleagues that shows a strong correlation (>0,8!) between max hang times on a 25mm edge and max RP grade.
-> European Journal of Sport Science; 2011, 1 10, iFirst article; ďHand arm strength and endurance as predictors of climbing performanceĒ; Authors: JIRˇIī BALAīSˇ , ONDRˇ EJ PECHA, ANDREW J. MARTIN, & DARRYL COCHRANE). Can be accessed via researchgate.
Sorry, donít have the link at hand right now.
no native speaker - so good luck in guessing what I really intended to express  :-)

Offline StillTryingForTheTop

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 10:36:09 am »
How often are people retesting themselves, or does that depend on what you are trying to improve?

Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 05:38:34 pm »


I read somewhere that it's something like:
30 moves = forearm fitness to redpoint 7b,
40 = 7c
50 = 8a
70 = 8b
100 = 8c
etc..

Or
30 to 200 moves = no correlation in ability to climb grit or slate slabs.
etc..
[/quote]

Yup you're pretty spot on there, although you have to make some leeway for people who want to do super long routes or really short power-based routes. That part will always need a bit more interpretation.

Grit / slab / crack = no correlation at all I suspect! :-)


Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 05:42:24 pm »
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Yes, thatíd be very interesting to compare.

However I assume that we are looking at two different energy systems via these two tests:

Lattice board is about aerobic endurance. The intermittent protocol lets the forearm muscles get access to oxygen. So the limiting factors are how much oxygen gets thru (capillary density) and to what degree the muscles can use it (mitochondria density, enzymesÖ).

Sustained hangs on 20mm edge will have the blood flow more or less occluded (for most of us mortals, almost completely occluded. And even for Megos this represents 33% of his MVC). So Iíd guess that this is less about aerobic endurance and more about anaerobic lactic endurance aspects.

W.r.t. relationship between sustained hangs and climbing ability, there is an interesting study by Balas and colleagues that shows a strong correlation (>0,8!) between max hang times on a 25mm edge and max RP grade.
-> European Journal of Sport Science; 2011, 1 10, iFirst article; ďHand arm strength and endurance as predictors of climbing performanceĒ; Authors: JIRˇIī BALAīSˇ , ONDRˇ EJ PECHA, ANDREW J. MARTIN, & DARRYL COCHRANE). Can be accessed via researchgate.
Sorry, donít have the link at hand right now.

Yup I quite agree. For over a year now I've been collecting data on continuous hangs (and I make sure that they're calibrated to a % of 1RM as I felt the Zlagboard didn't address this aspect enough) and I'm finding the results pretty inconclusive. Yes, there is some relationship between beginner-mod-elite, but I would say the better relationship exists with the number of years training. It's really poor though... not at the quality of findings that I think anyone would be happy with.


Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2017, 05:47:52 pm »
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Hi, Tom, I was wondering how lattice board endurance testing relates to rock climbing ability?

PS have you tested Cubitt? Back when I was at Uni (97ish), a couple of mates were on the UK comp team and the team trainer at the time had them do a foot-on campus session to failure which sounds very similar to the lattice board. With a bit of competitiveness various members of the team pushed the time to three and then four minutes, each exploding off with forearms like piglets. Then Cubitt stepped up. After fifteen minutes he asked if he could get down as he wasn't getting pumped and didn't see the point.

It has the best relationship to route climbing ability when the route specialisation involves efforts that are sub-15mins as the more that the profiling tool doesn't match "the event" then of course the specificity and predictive power will be reduced. We try to keep the battery of tests nice and broad and looking at lots of different aspects as not everyone is into the classics like Mecca, Fish Eye, Prow, Powerplant etc... which are becoming increasingly easy to profile as so many people want to do (or have done) these routes!

Cubitt - yeah it'd be great to get him on it. Wasn't he really really close to on sighting 8c back in the day? Dropped it at the chains??


Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2017, 05:49:40 pm »
:boohoo:

Its not a case of "Boo Hoo" that the emoticon you've used implies Luke. I don't have the time or inclination to jack in my moderately well paid job with lots of holiday nor "spare" time to spend  working on projects, especially when my skillset didn't match what was being sought.  Tom had messaged me through the boards, mistakenly thinking I've web-development skills, I'd taken the time to reply and explained that I wasn't and pointed him to a few other members who I thought might be able to help.  It doesn't take long to message but I never heard a thing back.  I can assure you I didn't lose any sleep over it though.

Sorry Neil - my fault for not messaging you back. Hope it's no hard feelings. Much better you kept your real job, you wouldn't really want to be a loser like me obsessing about energy systems and data  :)


Offline slackline

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2017, 08:13:01 am »
None taken at all, it was obvious your busy juggling lots of different projects. I wish you every success.
"Pedant" is what somebody who is wrong calls somebody who is correct - Anon

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2017, 11:16:22 pm »
Just did a lattice assessment on myself and have a question - is the 3rd rep % a percentage of the 1st (max moves) rep, or the 2nd (75% of max moves) rep?
Likewise the 7th rep - should it be a % of the max moves 1st rep or the 75% of max moves 2nd rep?

Hopefully that makes sense to someone.

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2017, 08:32:08 am »
Could have explained that better..

So, an aerocap score supposedly is obtained by taking the number of moves you do in your 3rd rep as a % of: either your 1st rep (max moves) or your 2nd rep (75% of max moves). Unsure which it is.

Likewise an ancap score is obtained by taking the number of moves in your 7th rep (or 8th - whichever you plateau out at) as a % of: either your 1st or 2nd rep.


I'm just uncertain if it's the first rep (max) or the second rep (75% of max) that you take the percentage against.

Offline haydn jones

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2017, 08:53:51 am »
2nd rep i would imagine. I understand the question now....did you manage to get more than 75% on your third rep? If you did then that means ypu aerobic capacity  is high i think....but you would have to ask tom i suspect to know for sure

Offline shark

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2017, 09:20:10 am »


I read somewhere that it's something like:
30 moves = forearm fitness to redpoint 7b,
40 = 7c
50 = 8a
70 = 8b
100 = 8c
etc..
Quote
Or
30 to 200 moves = no correlation in ability to climb grit or slate slabs.
etc..

Yup you're pretty spot on there, although you have to make some leeway for people who want to do super long routes or really short power-based routes. That part will always need a bit more interpretation.

Grit / slab / crack = no correlation at all I suspect! :-)

The public (well me at least) demands actual grades for number of moves not lame arsed capabilities with caveats.

I suspect the increments between grades are higher than those cited above....
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Offline T_B

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2017, 09:29:39 am »
90 moves feels a bit like E7 5b to me.

Offline AJM

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2017, 09:49:45 am »
Could have explained that better..

So, an aerocap score supposedly is obtained by taking the number of moves you do in your 3rd rep as a % of: either your 1st rep (max moves) or your 2nd rep (75% of max moves). Unsure which it is.

Likewise an ancap score is obtained by taking the number of moves in your 7th rep (or 8th - whichever you plateau out at) as a % of: either your 1st or 2nd rep.


I'm just uncertain if it's the first rep (max) or the second rep (75% of max) that you take the percentage against.

I thought the measure of good aerobics was if 3rd rep was more than 2nd rep (so either >75% of max or >100% of 2nd depending on measurement preference). Ancap is definitely a % of first rep though...

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2017, 09:57:53 am »
2nd rep i would imagine. I understand the question now....did you manage to get more than 75% on your third rep? If you did then that means ypu aerobic capacity  is high i think....but you would have to ask tom i suspect to know for sure

No, didn't manage more than the 75% on my 3rd rep.


My scores:

Weight 66kg (I'm heavier over winter, normally 62kg redpointing weight).

1-arm 5 seconds hang on the lattice rung: 0.5 kg assistance on LH, 0.75kg assistance on RH. So 99% of body weight held.

1st rep (max moves): 81
2nd rep (75% of 1st rep): 61
3rd rep (aero cap score): 52 - so an aerocap score of either 85% or 65% depending whether you take it against rep 1 or 2.
4th rep: 31 (50% or 39%)
5th rep: 22 (36% or 27%)
6th rep: 20 (33% or 25%)
7th rep: 15 (Ancap score of either 25% or 19%)


First time trying the lattice board so I could get slicker with the sequence. Not far off what I expected - strength not bad, although I'd half expected to be able to hang the edge with no assistance.
My aero is generally shite as baseline but responds quickly and is easy to improve. Haven't done any real endurance training in the last year so expected to suffer on the fitnesses.


Offline James Malloch

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2017, 11:31:15 am »
Just wondering what everyoneís thoughts are on when to do a Lattice Assessment? Iíd like to have some kind of benchmark but not sure if my current level means Iíd be better off doing something myself initially and then looking at an assessment once Iíve finished my training plan.

My sport climbing in the last year has been limited to a few trips away but Iíd say my current grade is about 7c sport (reasonably quick redpoint). Generally, on trips at least, Iíve been getting every 7b Iíve tried second go and onsighting up to this grade. Gave a couple of 7c/+ routes a token go on my last trip and felt they would go if I put a day or two of effort in (i.e. got close in half a session).

Strength wise Iím a bit shit. Had to take 17.5kg off for a 10s one arm hang on the middle, bottom beastmaker hold.

I suppose I could go and do my own thing on the lattice board next time Iím in Sheffield to see how many moves I would do and make a decision based on that, but it would be good to hear any thoughts people have.

Offline Luke

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2017, 11:58:29 am »
I'd defo do it before you start a training plan. It's basically a tool for building a training plan with, as it gives you a load of information on how you should prioritise the plan.

I had an assessment and then went on a month climbing trip. When I came back and started to build and plan the information was a bit out of date, as obviously I was a lot fitter.

They say you should be redpointing at least 7b+ for the assessment to be worthwhile.
If you can't reach the holds, climb up to them.

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2017, 12:33:04 pm »
Just wondering what everyoneís thoughts are on when to do a Lattice Assessment? Iíd like to have some kind of benchmark but not sure if my current level means Iíd be better off doing something myself initially and then looking at an assessment once Iíve finished my training plan.

My sport climbing in the last year has been limited to a few trips away but Iíd say my current grade is about 7c sport (reasonably quick redpoint). Generally, on trips at least, Iíve been getting every 7b Iíve tried second go and onsighting up to this grade. Gave a couple of 7c/+ routes a token go on my last trip and felt they would go if I put a day or two of effort in (i.e. got close in half a session).

Strength wise Iím a bit shit. Had to take 17.5kg off for a 10s one arm hang on the middle, bottom beastmaker hold.

I suppose I could go and do my own thing on the lattice board next time Iím in Sheffield to see how many moves I would do and make a decision based on that, but it would be good to hear any thoughts people have.

I'd say it's defo worth bench-marking yourself before you start a plan. Then you have the data of your relative strengths/weaknesses and can apply it to what your goals require.

It's relatively easy to do an assessment on yourself. I just filmed my first rep and during the 20mins rest period counted how many moves I did.
Second rep is 75% of the first rep so you know before you start how many to do - while on the board just count laps instead of individual moves, each lap is 14 moves. Time how long it takes to do.

For the 3rd to 7th reps you just climb max reps and time yourself - I found it easy enough to count the laps in my head and as I got close to failure started to count individual moves. Rest time is same time as the previous rep time.

Even easier if you can get a mate to count, long as you trust them not to fuck up!

If you want to graph your results it's easy to do online - I used 'Desmos', this is mine:




Of course Lattice or someone else can give you a more detailed assessment which would pick up on other things you're unlikely to be self-aware enough to spot in yourself.
For me, the data is enough.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 12:46:19 pm by petejh »

Offline Paul B

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2017, 12:34:03 pm »
Pete (Tommy) - where does time come into all of this?
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Offline T_B

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2017, 12:42:24 pm »
Just wondering what everyoneís thoughts are on when to do a Lattice Assessment? Iíd like to have some kind of benchmark but not sure if my current level means Iíd be better off doing something myself initially and then looking at an assessment once Iíve finished my training plan.

My sport climbing in the last year has been limited to a few trips away but Iíd say my current grade is about 7c sport (reasonably quick redpoint). Generally, on trips at least, Iíve been getting every 7b Iíve tried second go and onsighting up to this grade. Gave a couple of 7c/+ routes a token go on my last trip and felt they would go if I put a day or two of effort in (i.e. got close in half a session).

Strength wise Iím a bit shit. Had to take 17.5kg off for a 10s one arm hang on the middle, bottom beastmaker hold.

I suppose I could go and do my own thing on the lattice board next time Iím in Sheffield to see how many moves I would do and make a decision based on that, but it would be good to hear any thoughts people have.

I'd say it's defo worth bench-marking yourself before you start a plan. Then you have the data of your relative strengths/weaknesses and can apply it to what your goals require.


Don't you think you need to do a number of 'tests' and take the mean?

It took me about four sessions on the lattice board to get it dialled.

As for the edge, I reckon I'd see a big difference between a 'steely' day and a not so steely day.

Offline standard

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2017, 12:43:41 pm »
Pete (Tommy) - where does time come into all of this?

1st: max, 20 mins rest
2nd: 75% moves of first. rest = work.
3rd: max effort, then rest = work.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 01:00:04 pm by standard »

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2017, 12:44:41 pm »
Don't you think you need to do a number of 'tests' and take the mean?

It took me about four sessions on the lattice board to get it dialled.

As for the edge, I reckon I'd see a big difference between a 'steely' day and a not so steely day.

Yeah, for sure. More data is usually a good thing!

Agree about the edge test.

Offline James Malloch

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2017, 12:52:25 pm »

I'd say it's defo worth bench-marking yourself before you start a plan. Then you have the data of your relative strengths/weaknesses and can apply it to what your goals require.

It's relatively easy to do an assessment on yourself. I just filmed my first rep and during the 20mins rest period counted how many moves I did.
Second rep is 75% of the first rep so you know before you start how many to do - while on the board just count laps instead of individual moves, each lap is 14 moves. Time how long it takes to do.

For the 3rd to 7th reps you just climb max reps and time yourself - I found it easy enough to count the laps in my head and as I got close to failure started to count individual moves. Rest time is same time as the previous rep time.


Thanks for the detailed reply, Pete. It's definitely something I'll do next time I'm in Sheffield then.

Just to confirm:

Rep 1: Max attempt. Rest 20 mins.
Rep 2: Do 75% of max and then stop. Rest for time taken to complete rep 2.
Rep 3: Max attempt. Rest for time taken to complete rep 3.
.
.
.
Rep 7: Max attempt (after resting for time taken to complete rep 6).

As I've not access to the lattice board without a trip to Sheffield, could this be done doing foot on campusing for an initial, interim, estimate? I know John kettle uses this approach (using the same data as Tom, I think).

If so, would there be a specific way of doing it? I.e. just go up and down one rung at a time, or just do odd rungs to simulate the larger distances of the lattice board?

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2017, 01:02:44 pm »
Correct.

You could make whatever model you wanted to, using the campus board or other tools. As long as you made it possible to replicate then you could gauge your progress.

I suppose the advantage of using the lattice board is there's now a lot of relatively consistent benchmarking data behind it - lots of wads have given their scores on a supposedly standard testing tool (in reality I wonder how much variance there is in board angle at least, and the differences in friction between beastmakers suggests there'll be variance in friction on wooden lattice boards/edges), so the information is out there on what scores correlate to what grades. You wouldn't have that correlation from creating your own model on a campus board - you'd only have your own performance to correlate with grade benchmarks, plus whoever else you could persuade to do your test.

Offline Paul B

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2017, 01:07:15 pm »
Rep 1: Max attempt. Rest 20 mins.
Rep 2: Do 75% of max and then stop. Rest for time taken to complete rep 2.

I'd never realised that there was prescribed rest period for rep 1; I take it the duration of the first max effort is relatively low (4-5 mins?) compared to the 20 min rest time so you should be recovered?
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