Author Topic: Using a latticeboard  (Read 11129 times)

Offline petejh

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Using a latticeboard
« on: January 16, 2017, 04:58:37 pm »
More and more walls are putting up latticeboards for training on, and clearly they're a useful tool both for training and benchmarking different aspects of forearm fitness.

So, what do people think are the most effective ways to use the latticeboard, and what training or benchmarking protocols do they follow?

I assume the original designer has a financial interest in keeping their testing protocol to themselves but I doubt this will be possible in the longer-term. A comparison could be made with when campus boards started to become more widespread.

Offline submaximal gains

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 05:39:42 pm »
You test yourself by seeing how many moves you can do, going round and round until you fall off.

I don't think the testing protocols are what gives Latice training an advantage, rather it is having the data on very many climbers with different abilities that allows them to identify a client's strengths and weakesses and then develop a training plan.

Offline Kingy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 05:50:52 pm »
It has been questioned in a separate thread how accurate the data will be given that different climbers will have had different degrees of practice before taking the test. Even basic exercises have a large technique component that can be learned with repetition (e.g. campusing is easier the more you do it due to you getting accustomed to the exercise). To be truly scientific, I would say that all climbers tested should be doing the lattice test for the first time (impossible?)
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Offline haydn jones

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 06:10:10 pm »
You test yourself by seeing how many moves you can do, going round and round until you fall off.

Actually thats just  a small part of the test.

Offline nai

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 06:11:15 pm »
I thought the assessment method and different ways to use the board was pinned to it at the Foundry?

I assume the original designer has a financial interest in keeping their testing protocol to themselves but I doubt this will be possible in the longer-term

Or make the method public so that more people that test themselves and send in their data along with their vital stats; the larger the database grows then the more useful it becomes?
Plus they'll likely pick up a few clients from self assessments who maybe can't afford the assessment but fancy a training plan.
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Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 06:22:40 pm »
More and more walls are putting up latticeboards for training on, and clearly they're a useful tool both for training and benchmarking different aspects of forearm fitness.

So, what do people think are the most effective ways to use the latticeboard, and what training or benchmarking protocols do they follow?

I assume the original designer has a financial interest in keeping their testing protocol to themselves but I doubt this will be possible in the longer-term. A comparison could be made with when campus boards started to become more widespread.

Hi Pete, if you just go and ask one of the coaches at the wall that's near you that has one I'm sure they'll show you what's involved. Also we're putting together some training sheets for customers that everyone at the centre can use to train on the board and benchmark their own ability against the various energy systems.

As you can imagine I try to keep climbers, wall owners, assessors and current clients happy and it's always a tricky balance :-)

Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 07:03:57 pm »
I thought the assessment method and different ways to use the board was pinned to it at the Foundry?

That would be the obvious thing to do, but there isn't any info with the one at my local wall (Boardroom).
It seems odd to have an item of training equipment occupying a large part of the training room which nobody I've spoken to (except Luke to some extent) knows how to use in the way it's intended for - i.e. benchmark forearm fitness against ancap, aeropow, aerocap. No doubt information will spread over time but currently it's all a bit vague and rumour-mill.

Tommy - I'll ask for the lowdown on the timings/protocol etc. from one of the staff next time I'm there. The signs on the wall about paying a member of staff for an assessment lead me to think they may not give out that info freely though.



Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 07:17:16 pm »
Hi Pete, ah ok Boardroom is your one. Speak to Freddie and please feel free to let him know I said to give him a shout! He's done quite a few assessments and he has my number so can call me if he's at all unsure about anything.

We're working on all this stuff 7 days a week (I promise you... we're knackered! :-).....) and it's very much the intention to have a better and better resources available next to the boards. For example I'm down at the Foundry on Wed with Ollie Torr making up training sheets & photos for some sessions.

At the moment, we're reliant on the coaches we've trained up to be helpful and friendly to climbers in the wall.


Offline nai

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 07:24:42 pm »
Tom, am I imagining it, the How-to document is on the one at the Foundry isn't it??

I'm down at the Foundry on Wed with Ollie Torr making up training sheets & photos for some sessions.

Does that mean the board isn't available on Wednesday?
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Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 07:33:15 pm »
Hi Pete, ah ok Boardroom is your one. Speak to Freddie and please feel free to let him know I said to give him a shout! He's done quite a few assessments and he has my number so can call me if he's at all unsure about anything.

We're working on all this stuff 7 days a week (I promise you... we're knackered! :-).....) and it's very much the intention to have a better and better resources available next to the boards. For example I'm down at the Foundry on Wed with Ollie Torr making up training sheets & photos for some sessions.

At the moment, we're reliant on the coaches we've trained up to be helpful and friendly to climbers in the wall.

Cool, I know Freddie and will ask him. BTW I'm not suggesting any staff at boardroom haven't been helpful or forthcoming, they all seem a good bunch - just that the impression the signage gives is that the lattice board benchmarking/training protocol is something that needs to be paid for to have access to.

Offline duncan

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 08:21:02 pm »
It has been questioned in a separate thread how accurate the data will be given that different climbers will have had different degrees of practice before taking the test. Even basic exercises have a large technique component that can be learned with repetition (e.g. campusing is easier the more you do it due to you getting accustomed to the exercise). To be truly scientific, I would say that all climbers tested should be doing the lattice test for the first time (impossible?)

I missed that thread, this is a good question to ask but the wrong solution. With a subject naive on first test, s/he will always do better second time due to test familiarity and improvement in technique. The better solution (scientifically) is to ensure the subject is well-practiced before the first test so any difference at test two or three is due to physiological change. I'll let Tom decide if this is practical or not!

Offline Luke Owens

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 09:26:21 pm »
Also we're putting together some training sheets for customers that everyone at the centre can use to train on the board and benchmark their own ability against the various energy systems.

That's good to hear, I've seen countless people at the Boardroom staring up at the Lattice board bewildered.

Will information on "x" amount of moves relates to redpointing/onsight "x" grade be included Tom? Or is that exclusive to doing an assesment?

Cheers

Offline slackline

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 09:44:37 pm »
Will information on "x" amount of moves relates to redpointing/onsight "x" grade be included Tom? Or is that exclusive to doing an assesment?

I hope it contains not just a point estimate of the predicted value but also a confidence interval.  :geek:
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Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 10:51:34 am »


I missed that thread, this is a good question to ask but the wrong solution. With a subject naive on first test, s/he will always do better second time due to test familiarity and improvement in technique. The better solution (scientifically) is to ensure the subject is well-practiced before the first test so any difference at test two or three is due to physiological change. I'll let Tom decide if this is practical or not!

[/quote]

Quite correct - we allow time and give coaching within the assessment to give the climber the best method and sequence for climbing on the board. We want to eliminate as much learning and technical inefficiency as possible, so people always get plenty of practice... they're also welcome to use the board before their assessment. It's not perfect, but it's the most practical way for us to reduce the problem. Like many forms of testing in sports science, there's an adaption to the exercise that's learnt and most good studies will do something to deal with this. The other thing that you rarely see in the papers is decent research (with bigger cohorts) on elite athletes... that's something that I'm really psyched that we've managed to tap into. I often assumed that performance profiles would have "something special" to them for the top end (those who we all aspire to) but they're actually boringly similar to all of us... just a bit better in all areas!


Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 10:52:38 am »

[/quote]

Does that mean the board isn't available on Wednesday?
[/quote]

You're very welcome to it. We're just doing some development stuff. Come and say hi :-)


Offline Tommy

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2017, 10:53:37 am »

[/quote]

I hope it contains not just a point estimate of the predicted value but also a confidence interval.  :geek:
[/quote]

Oh yes. That's why we brought Remus on board. He's the stats pro ;-)


Offline slackline

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2017, 10:55:03 am »
Oh yes. That's why we brought Remus on board. He's the stats pro ;-)

I wondered who you'd got after I never heard from you again.
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Offline standard

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2017, 11:22:13 am »
 :popcorn:

Offline Luke Owens

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2017, 11:58:55 am »
Oh yes. That's why we brought Remus on board. He's the stats pro ;-)

I wondered who you'd got after I never heard from you again.

 :boohoo:

Offline slackline

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2017, 01:25:56 pm »
:boohoo:

Its not a case of "Boo Hoo" that the emoticon you've used implies Luke. I don't have the time or inclination to jack in my moderately well paid job with lots of holiday nor "spare" time to spend  working on projects, especially when my skillset didn't match what was being sought.  Tom had messaged me through the boards, mistakenly thinking I've web-development skills, I'd taken the time to reply and explained that I wasn't and pointed him to a few other members who I thought might be able to help.  It doesn't take long to message but I never heard a thing back.  I can assure you I didn't lose any sleep over it though.
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Offline Mark Lloyd

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2017, 01:30:05 pm »

Come and say hi :-)
[/quote]
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Offline nai

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2017, 02:41:01 pm »

Quote

Does that mean the board isn't available on Wednesday?

You're very welcome to it. We're just doing some development stuff. Come and say hi :-)

Managed to get down today in the end, I'll be resting tomorrow now so won't be getting in your way :wave:
Luck favours the Prepared

Offline Johnny Brown

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2017, 02:43:43 pm »
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Hi, Tom, I was wondering how lattice board endurance testing relates to rock climbing ability?

PS have you tested Cubitt? Back when I was at Uni (97ish), a couple of mates were on the UK comp team and the team trainer at the time had them do a foot-on campus session to failure which sounds very similar to the lattice board. With a bit of competitiveness various members of the team pushed the time to three and then four minutes, each exploding off with forearms like piglets. Then Cubitt stepped up. After fifteen minutes he asked if he could get down as he wasn't getting pumped and didn't see the point.

Offline 36chambers

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2017, 03:01:11 pm »
Hi, Tom, I  was wondering how the zlagboard competition maximum hang time on an edge (20mm ?) relates to the lattice board endurance testing ?

Hi, Tom, I was wondering how lattice board endurance testing relates to rock climbing ability?

PS have you tested Cubitt? Back when I was at Uni (97ish), a couple of mates were on the UK comp team and the team trainer at the time had them do a foot-on campus session to failure which sounds very similar to the lattice board. With a bit of competitiveness various members of the team pushed the time to three and then four minutes, each exploding off with forearms like piglets. Then Cubitt stepped up. After fifteen minutes he asked if he could get down as he wasn't getting pumped and didn't see the point.

was he wearing a knee pad?
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Offline petejh

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Re: Using a latticeboard
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2017, 03:43:25 pm »
Hi, Tom, I was wondering how lattice board endurance testing relates to rock climbing ability?


I read somewhere that it's something like:
30 moves = forearm fitness to redpoint 7b,
40 = 7c
50 = 8a
70 = 8b
100 = 8c
etc..

Or
30 to 200 moves = no correlation in ability to climb grit or slate slabs.
etc..