[slackline]

N = 18

Repeat the study and you won't get anywhere near the same results.

[Oldmanmatt]

N = 18

Repeat the study and you won't get anywhere near the same results.

Yeah, I posted by accident before finishing. Up to N=32! WooHoo!
Still plenty more papers to trawl...

I get it though.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[TobyD]

Toby, you can't just train for a sport by performing that sport. That's not how any high level athlete trains in any sport. Obviously, that's how you get better at a particular activity, but it's also a recipe for injury and imbalance, surely.[emoji6]
I'm expecting you to put down the weights and lock up the bike and Turbo right now! Nothing for you except the board, sunshine! [emoji13][emoji12]🤡
All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

point taken.... however:

I'd argue that that depends on the relative complexity, variety and nature of the sport in question, as well as the level of the individual doing it. Climbing is so skill based, varied and complex, I think that simple exercises have realtively little transferability compared to just climbing. Under normal circumstances i do no weights, very little rings, no turbo training and steep bouldering + finger boarding etc pretty often. No real argument there, just sayin like.

[petejh]

Toby, you can't just train for a sport by performing that sport. That's not how any high level athlete trains in any sport. Obviously, that's how you get better at a particular activity, but it's also a recipe for injury and imbalance, surely.[emoji6]
I'm expecting you to put down the weights and lock up the bike and Turbo right now! Nothing for you except the board, sunshine! [emoji13][emoji12]🤡
All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

Isn't that exactly what a lot of the world's best climbers have done through the years though?

Fingerboarding (I'm placing FB & Campussing in 'just climbing' for argument's sake): finger strength, neuro-muscular training.
Campussing: finger strength, climbing specific power, neuro-muscular training.
Hard bouldering: finger strength, climbing-specific power, climbing-specific upper body strength, technique training, neuro-muscular training.
Climbing below limit/Intervals/traverses/circuit boards/route laps: Climbing-specific energy system training, technique training.
Onsighting at limit: as above plus mental training/confidence building.
Redpopinting at limit: as above plus mental training/confidence building.


That pretty much sums up what the top climbers have done for training over the last 50 years (1950-2000), plus some pull-ups, press-ups, cardio and random outliers. And it took them to high levels of performance. It's only really in the last ten years most of the supplemental training mentioned became popular. But is it any more effective than lots and lots of climbing?

Obviously for the time-constained supplemental exercise may be the only option. But a steep board and a 6-month pass to the wall along with the motivation to do loads of laps I think would be the optimal path to improvement.

Injury prevention I agree with - especially shoulders. TRX and kettlebells to beef up the shoulders seems a no-brainer. TRX/Rings is also especially relevant to overhanging mixed climbing on jug-handle axes, which involves holding an unstable pick in one orientation whilst pulling down smoothly and moving upward on it.

[dave]

Isn't that exactly what a lot of the world's best climbers have done through the years though?

Yeah and they got strong, and injured.

You can't treat injury avoidance and performance separately, or ignore that fact that more-or-less-exclusively climbing hard and training principally by climbing-based training is an almost guaranteed recipe for eventual injury. You can't perform if you're injured. Plenty of top climbers have had to take time out over the years to sort out bad shoulders and elbows.

[nai]

Toby, you can't just train for a sport by performing that sport. That's not how any high level athlete trains in any sport.

I've always believed that gymnasts only ever do gymnastics.   Found it quite incredible at first that they could develop such physiques without lifting weights or whatever, then you try what they do and have an "Oh" moment.

[Oldmanmatt]

Pete, amen.

But.

I only do a ring exercise twice a week. It's split up into other things, so ~ 12-15 min out of a 3 hr session (3 per week).It was something I designed to treat/prevent from reoccurring a shoulder injury. I do a core session every Wed. Again to treat/prevent an existing back injury.
If (if), such a thing has a beneficial carry over in as much as it strengthens stabilisation muscles, then it would be worth 20minutes a week of anyone's time.

I would never suggest it as a replacement to the established.

My personal thing with the weighted press ups, went like this:

Hmmm, I'll try some of those, because I've read about this unstable stuff and it might help my shoulder. (Tries some with no weights) hey! That's hard.
Reads more.

Four weeks later, writing the next 4 week plan:
Those press ups are pretty easy now and my shoulder is much stronger, maybe I'll and some weight...

And so on.

Now, it happened that I was finishing off my Personal Trainer cert at the time and was regularly doing the Bench test (even though I never train in a weights gym). So I wondered what would happen if I kept going.

N=1, but my shoulders have never been stronger and I think Ii feel a benefit in my climbing.
I can't prove it.
Also, why can't something that works be improved upon? Lots more reading to do and anyone interested in putting together a study or has contacts in that world, I'd love to help!


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[slackline]

Isn't that exactly what a lot of the world's best climbers have done through the years though?

Yeah and they got strong, and injured.

Injury prevention I agree with - especially shoulders.

[petejh]

Thanks Slackers.

OMM yep agree - I do TRX and other instability exercises: side plank into front plank into opposite side plank over and over. I find the same as you, they improve my shoulder resilience.

Keen to try the weighted TRX/Ring press-ups on my next sesh.


I'd sumarise TrX/Rings/Gym Balls not as 'serious training tools (for climbing)' but rather as 'serious injury prevention/injury re-hab tools' (for climbing/everything).

[Serpico]

Toby, you can't just train for a sport by performing that sport. That's not how any high level athlete trains in any sport.

I've always believed that gymnasts only ever do gymnastics.   Found it quite incredible at first that they could develop such physiques without lifting weights or whatever, then you try what they do and have an "Oh" moment.

That's down to genetics. When you picture a gymnast you're thinking of those that are at Olympic or world class level, those that have risen through the ranks because of the right genetics,  your average club punter is never going to look like that.

[SA Chris]

So you're saying I have no chance then?

[Oldmanmatt]

Toby, you can't just train for a sport by performing that sport. That's not how any high level athlete trains in any sport.

I've always believed that gymnasts only ever do gymnastics.   Found it quite incredible at first that they could develop such physiques without lifting weights or whatever, then you try what they do and have an "Oh" moment.

That's down to genetics. When you picture a gymnast you're thinking of those that are at Olympic or world class level, those that have risen through the ranks because of the right genetics,  your average club punter is never going to look like that.

Never!

Well maybe a little..

Genetics is probably the final arbiter, but plenty of county class Gymnasts are pretty damn hench. Just like a Black belt in (your choice) martial art or "good" climbers (I like the Japanese grading system for Bouldering, that mimics the martial art gradings), or any of the "Applied Gymnastics" disciplines.

Because that's what climbing is, Applied Gymnastics. As Engineering is to Physics/Mathematics etc.


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[Nibile]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

[cheque]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

[Oldmanmatt]

Have you read "Bounce" by Matthew Syed?
He was an Olympic table tennis medalist but makes a strong case for the 10,000 hrs over genetics argument, at least anecdotally. You have to read it to get the full gist of his argument, but it boils down to the unlikely "hot spot" of Table tennis talent that arose in his immediate locality and specifically his club.


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[Oldmanmatt]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

But they very quickly surpass the climbing punter with a little practice...


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[cheque]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

But they very quickly surpass the climbing punter with a little practice...

I'm going to need to see a number of sufficiently credible peer-reviewed journal articles to back that statement up Matt. 

[Serpico]

Have you read "Bounce" by Matthew Syed?
He was an Olympic table tennis medalist but makes a strong case for the 10,000 hrs over genetics argument, at least anecdotally. You have to read it to get the full gist of his argument, but it boils down to the unlikely "hot spot" of Table tennis talent that arose in his immediate locality and specifically his club.


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Yep, the '10,000 hours' thing had been largely debunked, genetics are massive - no amount of sprinting is going to turn Mo Farah into Usain Bolt.

[Serpico]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

But they very quickly surpass the climbing punter with a little practice...

I'm going to need to see a number of sufficiently credible peer-reviewed journal articles to back that statement up Matt. 

+1
People often quote climber x who was an gymnast/swimmer/martial artist/etc and put their success down to their previous sport, but you never hear of all the shit climbers who were gymnasts/etc because why would you?

[Nibile]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

You must be kidding.
Elite gymnasts have a level of strength, power, proprioception, equilibrium and control of the body that we humans can only dream of.  sorry.

[tomtom]

Yes but very little finger strength...

[Nibile]

Yes but very little finger strength...

Yes, surely... Surely less than your average punter...
Because latching the high bar with one hand after a couple of flips is easy on the fingers and forearms.

[cheque]

With regards to athleticism, the regular gymnastic punter will put many elite level climbers to shame.

and with regards to climbing rock, the regular climbing punter will put many elite level gymnasts to shame.

You must be kidding.
Elite gymnasts have a level of strength, power, proprioception, equilibrium and control of the body that we humans can only dream of.

My point was more that they don't want to climb cliffs and have therefore never done it. I've no doubt that while theoretically physically capable of quite quickly becoming good at climbing most gymnasts would find it unpleasant in some way. Same reason most rock climbers have a low level of athleticism- their passion is climbing up rocks and therefore they go out and have fun doing that rather than doing all sorts of gym stuff.

But you are absolutely right, I was kidding. 

[Nibile]

their passion is climbing up rocks and therefore they go out and have fun doing that rather than doing all sorts of gym stuff.

What? Having fun climbing? Now you MUST be kidding!
 

[Nibile]

P.s. Sorry for missing the point of your post.