[shark]

Shark just found out he's stronger than Hayden and lost his last excuse for failing the Oak!

Hardly. This was as an anomaly similar to when I 'burnt off' Ste Mac with back2 hangs on the BM small crimp. Haydn refused to chisel the lattice edge saying it was irrelevant to climbing outside  and then did the test with a half-crimp. Unsurprisingly he returned the following day and hung off it without any assistance using a full crimp. The main lesson was that Haydn is weaker than he should be at half crimping and dragging hence:

4. Depelop my open handed/half crimp strength. Would be nice to match my current full crimp strength aka 5 sec hand on toms latice or 11 sec on BM currently at 10kilos asistance for half and 20 for open.

[nai]

The main lesson was that Haydn is weaker than he should be at dragging hence:

He can't do gritstone and resorts to dissing it? ;-)

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

[haydn jones]

I didn't  refuse to chisle (what ever that means as there is no such grip as chisle. Please from now on only ever use drag half crimp and full crimp as climbers have done for decades. Im not sure where this chisel has come from i assume it means drag?) I just personally find this grip extremely weak. Along with managing the body weight hang with full crimp i tried the half crimp and managed to match you this time ( 10kg assistance) and then also tried drag which required 20kg of asistance. So some clear weaknesses  of mine that ive always know however i assumed everyone would be strongest in full crimp so i was surprised to find this not the case.

[shark]

Touchy

[tomtom]

Touchy

Open hand touchy?

(Note smiley - im being a dick..)

[haydn jones]

Haha sorry i sound like a right arse hole reading that back. I was just getting so confused about what chisle meant the other day

[Luke Owens]

What's the required grip for testing on a lattice edge?

I didn't  refuse to chisle (what ever that means as there is no such grip as chisle. Please from now on only ever use drag half crimp and full crimp as climbers have done for decades. Im not sure where this chisel has come from i assume it means drag?) I just personally find this grip extremely weak. Along with managing the body weight hang with full crimp i tried the half crimp and managed to match you this time ( 10kg assistance) and then also tried drag which required 20kg of asistance. So some clear weaknesses  of mine that ive always know however i assumed everyone would be strongest in full crimp so i was surprised to find this not the case.

I was confused awhile back about this but it now makes sense. I've seen a chisel go under many names: 4 finger open, open, crimp, natural grip and some people even seem to think it's a half crimp (which it isn't). From what i've gathered it's basicly 4 fingers on, index is dragging, middle finger is half crimping, ring finger is sort of half crimping, pinky is dragging. Seems to be the grip many use for campusing.

I'm like you Haydn (although a lot weaker) I'm my strongest full crimped and can get nowhere open handing or half crimping. Probably why i'm nursing 2 A2 strains at the moment...

[shark]

[Sidehaas]

If chisel is just a four finger drag it seems pointless calling it something else confusing. Does it have to imply one pad only?
What's the difference between (3 finger) dragging and scouts honour? I remember a scout salute being holding your little finger with your thumb but how does this help you on the hold?

[shark]

It would also be misleading to call it a four finger drag when the middle two aren't dragging. I don't think everyone tends towards forming a chisel - it depends on an individuals finger length. The pic is probably 10 years old from the Beastmaker site and I posted it to show that the chisel does exist to chisel denyers like Haydn and to back up
Luke's description. This is well off topic. If you search the site you can find that it has been discussed a few times.

Luke - you can use whatever grip you prefer on the lattice rail. It is quite rounded.

[dave]

The scouts honour is a tongue-in-cheek beastmaker thing where you're dragging the sloper but with thumb in the lower slot for assistance. Obviously of limited utility outdoors.

Getting back to Haydn, if anyone isn't strongest fully crimped then they are doing something wrong, it's mechanically the strongest grip naturally. I.e. People are avoiding using it for some reason, and hence are weak on it. When you see kids on a climbing wall when they get an edge they crimp it.

[abarro81]

Depends on the hold though doesn't it Dave - e.g. the BM 2000 edges lend themselves more to a natural grip (what Varian would appear to call chisel though that's not what me or Mason call chisel) than to crimping. I for one would be much weaker crimping them than holding them naturally.

[Oldmanmatt]

It would also be misleading to call it a four finger drag when the middle two aren't dragging. I don't think everyone tends towards forming a chisel - it depends on an individuals finger length. The pic is probably 10 years old from the Beastmaker site and I posted it to show that the chisel does exist to chisel denyers like Haydn and to back up
Luke's description. This is well off topic. If you search the site you can find that it has been discussed a few times.

Luke - you can use whatever grip you prefer on the lattice rail. It is quite rounded.

We've been discussing this lately and starting to put a survey together. I hate this grip, but I have an exceptionally short Pinky; which means all three of the other fingers have to be very crimped for my Pinky to just about engage. In fact my middle finger seems longer than most other people, relative to index and ring; so it's almost uncomfortably compressed in order to bring the pinky to bear.
I also find, training back two gives me almost no benefit to the Pinky.
This arose out of a discussion about why some people seemed to advance to pinky monos relatively quickly and others never seem to develop any pinky strength at all; despite similar training regimen.
Comparing hands, we reckon all those with pinky tips that extended distally past the DIP of the ring finger, had strong back two and pinky development and those that stopped short of the ring DIP were weak.



All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[dave]

Depends on the hold though doesn't it Dave - e.g. the BM 2000 edges lend themselves more to a natural grip (what Varian would appear to call chisel though that's not what me or Mason call chisel) than to crimping. I for one would be much weaker crimping them than holding them naturally.

Yeah it does depend on the hold (i can't crimp the BM edges because they are in a slot) but if I was runout miles above gear on those edges not in a slot I'd be crimping them. Gotta be stronger to have 5 digits involved not 3 or 4.

[Nibile]

Not necessarily, because of the angles created at the joints. It also depends largely on the hold, especially how its edge is shaped.
Also, it depends on how much your fingers (index especially) can hyperxtend.
I'm balanced between half crimp and full drag (3 fingers for me, due to short pinky), but cannot match that with full crimp: my index and middle do not extend much and the full crimp is the most painful prehension for me.
I can full crimp front2 and middle2 on the small BM rungs, though, so I don't know what to think.

[standard]

Look at the profile of the end of a chisel.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1080x720/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/s/ashley-iles-chisel-32mm.jpg

Looks like middle two crimping, outer two dragging

[Oldmanmatt]

Not necessarily, because of the angles created at the joints. It also depends largely on the hold, especially how its edge is shaped.
Also, it depends on how much your fingers (index especially) can hyperxtend.
I'm balanced between half crimp and full drag (3 fingers for me, due to short pinky), but cannot match that with full crimp: my index and middle do not extend much and the full crimp is the most painful prehension for me.
I can full crimp front2 and middle2 on the small BM rungs, though, so I don't know what to think.

Show me your hand!

No, don't.

Seriously though, does your pinky extend to or beyond your ring DIP?


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Nibile]

Not necessarily, because of the angles created at the joints. It also depends largely on the hold, especially how its edge is shaped.
Also, it depends on how much your fingers (index especially) can hyperxtend.
I'm balanced between half crimp and full drag (3 fingers for me, due to short pinky), but cannot match that with full crimp: my index and middle do not extend much and the full crimp is the most painful prehension for me.
I can full crimp front2 and middle2 on the small BM rungs, though, so I don't know what to think.

Seriously though, does your pinky extend to or beyond your ring DIP?

Right one just to the joint, left one even shorter.
image by Nibile, on Flickr

[Luke Owens]

Can anyone shed light on why Half Crimp is supposed to be the best way to train using deadhangs as opposed to open crimp?

The reason I ask is a lot of the people I know who are strong (some of them ridiculously so) use the "open crimp" grip. (Index dragging, Mid half crimped, ring sort of half crimped and pinky dragging) all the time.

Anyone I ever see doing one arm stuff on a fingerboard seems to use this grip and also on the campus board too.

I also read the Eva Lopez's blog and she mentions somewhere in the comments on a post about it being better to train open crimp and she personally prefers this. Also Eric Horsts deadhanging protocols also give the choice of using either grip.

Open crimp seems like the most versatile grip type (and feels less tweaky to me personally), so would it make sense to train this the most?

[Nibile]

I think it's because the proper half crimp - fingers at 90 degrees, depending on relative length of pinky - has the greatest crossover effect on both full crimp and dragging.
It stresses the pulleys but without creating acute angles and mechanical locks (thumb over) as the full crimp, and it also stresses the tendons like in a dragging prehension.
Moreover, the half crimp is the less favourable angle, so it's the most beneficial to train.

[jwi]

Can anyone shed light on why Half Crimp is supposed to be the best way to train using deadhangs as opposed to open crimp?

The reason I ask is a lot of the people I know who are strong (some of them ridiculously so) use the "open crimp" grip. (Index dragging, Mid half crimped, ring sort of half crimped and pinky dragging) all the time.

Anyone I ever see doing one arm stuff on a fingerboard seems to use this grip and also on the campus board too.

I also read the Eva Lopez's blog and she mentions somewhere in the comments on a post about it being better to train open crimp and she personally prefers this. Also Eric Horsts deadhanging protocols also give the choice of using either grip.

Open crimp seems like the most versatile grip type (and feels less tweaky to me personally), so would it make sense to train this the most?

1) Find the smallest flat edge you can hang for 5 sec using both hands — this is probably a flat edge at around 7mm or thinner. 2) Ask someone to film your fingers during the hang. 3) Look at the film: What grip are you using?

On biggish edges I'm 10-20% stronger in the grip you describe as “open crimp” as I am in full crimp and 20-30% stronger than in half crimp. On a edge of more realistic size (smallest flat edge I can hang) I'm strongest in full crimp and quite ok on half-crimp.

[Luke Owens]

1) Find the smallest flat edge you can hang for 5 sec using both hands — this is probably a flat edge at around 7mm or thinner. 2) Ask someone to film your fingers during the hang. 3) Look at the film: What grip are you using?

On biggish edges I'm 10-20% stronger in the grip you describe as “open crimp” as I am in full crimp and 20-30% stronger than in half crimp. On a edge of more realistic size (smallest flat edge I can hang) I'm strongest in full crimp and quite ok on half-crimp.

The smallest edge I can hang is 20mm... I imgine I'd probably be strongest on it full crimped but I've never tried. Half crimping is my weakest grip. Open crimp definitely feels the nicest to train though...

[Murph]

The smallest edge I can hang is 20mm...

For serious? With two hands?

[jwi]

and for 5 s? There's quite a bit of difference between what most people can hang for 5s and for 10s.

If you boulder around 6C-7A (?) you “should” be able to hang a 15mm edge for 5s unless the boulders are very long or can be done by excessive trickery.

Anyway, what you can do on a wooden edge is not important.

I've used the middle-two crimp/outer-two drag hold for training for a long time: the result is that I'm fairly strong on juggy edges but really weak on small holds. Last three-four months I've done all my hangboarding using the open crimp and I've seen a small improvement on small holds for the first time in years. YMMV

[Luke Owens]

The smallest edge I can hang is 20mm...

For serious? With two hands?

Yeah, serious, Yeah, 2 hands...

and for 5 s? There's quite a bit of difference between what most people can hang for 5s and for 10s.

If you boulder around 6C-7A (?) you “should” be able to hang a 15mm edge for 5s unless the boulders are very long or can be done by excessive trickery.

Anyway, what you can do on a wooden edge is not important.

At the moment I can hang a 20mm edge for 10s max in an open crimp grip.

I can 3 finger open hand a 20mm edge for about 8s.

I've never been able to hang anything smaller. I've tried the small BM2k (15mm?) edges for years but have never been able to pull off the ground.

I've bouldered short 7A+ and long 7B and sport climbed 7c meaning I must be the weakest person these grades have ever seen...!

Last three-four months I've done all my hangboarding using the open crimp and I've seen a small improvement on small holds for the first time in years. YMMV

Interesting, you've got better gains on small holds from open crimp training compared to half crimp training?

[Duma]

IIRC cha1n on here had done 7B before he could hang the BM2k edges

[andy_e]

Anyway, what you can do on a wooden edge is not important.

Don't let Nibs hear you say that!

[SFrancis]

Really interested in this topic, as I had been training whats described as "chisel" on the fingerboard and had got to hanging around bw+40% for 10s on the bmk 1 20mm edges. Mostly did repeaters rather than max hangs, before I got the difference explained to me about 1/2 crimp and chisel.

Tried 1/2 crimp and was barely able to hold the position with my bw for 10s, without my index finger dropping to drag. Could mange maybe 2 1/2 crimp hangs when trying to do 7 sets of 7 sec hangs and 3 sec rest, before i would drop to chisel.

I've spent the last 10 months mainly working on 1/2 crimp max hang and have go up to bw+35%. Can easily smash out a set of repeaters now, and have really noticed a difference when pulling on small holds, in crimp /1/2 crimp, especially powerful moves off small holds. I'm still stronger in "chisel", and seem to use chisel for big campusing moves on med/lg rungs, and 1/2 crimp for smaller moves on he smaller rungs. 

In summary i subscribe to the idea that training 1/2 crimp seems to train more hand positions, whilst chisel seemed to just get me stonger at chisel / more open handed. It's really had a noticiable difference on bouldering / sport cruxs.

[jwi]

Last three-four months I've done all my hangboarding using the open crimp and I've seen a small improvement on small holds for the first time in years. YMMV

Interesting, you've got better gains on small holds from open crimp training compared to half crimp training?

Argh... typo: Should read

Last three-four months I've done all my hangboarding using the half crimp and I've seen a small improvement on small holds for the first time in years. YMMV

[Murph]

Anyway, what you can do on a wooden edge is not important.

Don't let Nibs hear you say that!

Was SO going to say that too! 

Luke - yeah man that must put you at the "weaker" end of the spectrum. That's not really a bad thing though cos for a given grade, weaker must surely mean more talented. Probably shows my biases but I reckon strength must be loads more easy to train than talent...

[Nibile]

Cheers guys!

[tomtom]

I think it's because the proper half crimp - fingers at 90 degrees, depending on relative length of pinky - has the greatest crossover effect on both full crimp and dragging.
It stresses the pulleys but without creating acute angles and mechanical locks (thumb over) as the full crimp, and it also stresses the tendons like in a dragging prehension.
Moreover, the half crimp is the less favourable angle, so it's the most beneficial to train.

Its probably been done to death, but to me there are many shades of grey between a half crimp and a chisel.. due to the geometry of my hand and length of fingers my half crimp looks halfway between. But I know its a half crimp rather than a chisel, as my fingers 'lock over' of that makes any sense...

[Luke Owens]

Luke - yeah man that must put you at the "weaker" end of the spectrum. That's not really a bad thing though cos for a given grade, weaker must surely mean more talented. Probably shows my biases but I reckon strength must be loads more easy to train than talent...

I wouldn't really describe myself as talented, I'm just obsessed and have a good memory for climbing movement/beta.

One strange thing I've noticed is that I climbed 7A+ 3 years ago and my grades have barely budged since then. I've never really found myself getting that much stronger from "just going climbing" which I have done plenty of over the years. I did a lot of board climbing last year which I reckon helped me break my grade plateau last year but finger strength didn't improve much, if at all.

At the moment I'm doing a lot of fingerboarding so I'm hoping for some good gains seems I've never really stuck at doing it...

[Murph]

Really interested in this topic
....
It's really had a noticiable difference on bouldering / sport cruxs.

Great first post SF (specially compared to some of the others we've been having lately!)

I've got similar background to you I reckon. I took up max hangs last year and was fairly quickly hanging +50-60% bw from 14mm but with a chisel type grip. In contrast to Luke's experience, at these numbers my highest ever grade was 7B. Make your own minds up about how much talent I must have....

Recently got some coaching and basically told that's not how to do it - it has to be 90* 1/2 crimp on first three with pinkie doing what it wants. This is much harder. (Also some shoulder stability things which might just be me).

Question for you then SF, what sort of boulder grades/improvement are you seeing with this newly honed 1/2 crimp strength?

[Will Hunt]

One strange thing I've noticed is that I climbed 7A+ 3 years ago and my grades have barely budged since then. I've never really found myself getting that much stronger from "just going climbing" which I have done plenty of over the years. I did a lot of board climbing last year which I reckon helped me break my grade plateau last year but finger strength didn't improve much, if at all.

Welcome to the great, expansive plains of inadequacy. Run in whichever direction you please, there is no end to them.

[Luke Owens]

To add to this, word on the street is the average strength of a 7c sport climber/7B boulder is being able to hang 85-90% of body weight on a 20mm edge one armed. Which to me would be taking off 7- 11kg. I reckon I'd need way more assistance than that. Something to work towards...

[tomtom]

Pah...

I project 7B-7C (with the odd success) and would generally 'expect' to do a 7A or 7A+ in a session...

My deadhang weight thingy on the 20mm BM edges (two armed) is +20kg... Getting to +20KG has certainly helped, but its more often than not knack or problem specific strength/skin/core/footshift/bodyposition that does the trick..

My other tuppence worth (while I'm sounding like a grumpy old man) is that if you have a 20mm edge that you are chiseling with your pinky dragging - if you rotate that edge by 10 degrees all fingers fit on fine and its a different grip again.. How many times to you hit a flat 20mm edge that is horizontal...? Ever?

Of course the way around this is to do max hangs on chisel and drag etc..

no-one has yet mentioned sloper strength yet either.. I'm amazed that no-one has any max hang numbers on that (I can do the 35's with +20kg).. possibly of more use for the scrittle..

[nai]

would generally 'expect' to do a 7A or 7A+ in a session season...

sorted

no-one has yet mentioned sloper strength yet either.. I'm amazed that no-one has any max hang numbers on that (I can do the 35's with +20kg).. possibly of more use for the scrittle..

They're the worst holds on that board for me, something always goes clunk and they hurt my wrists. Skin and conditions dependent and tweaky too so altogether to be avoided. Probably in a majority of one though...

[36chambers]

To add to this, word on the street is the average strength of a 7c sport climber/7B boulder is being able to hang 85-90% of body weight on a 20mm edge one armed. Which to me would be taking off 7- 11kg. I reckon I'd need way more assistance than that. Something to work towards...

is this for 5 seconds?

[tomtom]

would generally 'expect' to do a 7A or 7A+ in a session season...

sorted

Pah. Got my first new 7A+ of the year on Sunday... :p

[SFrancis]

Question for you then SF, what sort of boulder grades/improvement are you seeing with this newly honed 1/2 crimp strength?

Cheers, it peaked my interest as the person I spoke to about grip positions was stronger on 1/2 crimp and gave me the impression it was not normal that i was way stronger on chisel compared to 1/2 crimp. This thread seems to suggest I wasn't alone.

In terms of improvement grades I mostly do routes, for sport I went from consistent o/s of 6b+/c s to consistently 7a (limestone/slate) with best of 7b. I haven't had the chance to RP anything harder than 7b+ as i mostly prefer doing multiple o/s (5-6 routes a session), if it doesnt go 2nd go i normally move on.  Big improvements in the amount i can manage in a day, and can mess up a crux and have a bit of reserve to power through it. This year the plan is to put the gains towards RPing a bit more.

Bouldering i've broken in to the 7s, and am now consistently doing 7As in a session (Font/Peak) and managed a few 6C flashes, without being too wiped out to do lots of 6A-6C bouldering.

Obviously i've done more than just fb all year but that was basically it in terms of benchmarkable training. The mileage i've done has probably helped with the grades, but i have definietly noticed big difference with crimpy bouldering, and ease of pulling off small holds in cruxes.

[Murph]

is this for 5 seconds?

Yeah. Lattice assessment hangs are 5 seconds. Not sure they have to be 1/2 crimp though.

My notes from Toms TrainingBeta podcast:
7B+ = 95%
8A/+ = 100-110%

[nai]

would generally 'expect' to do a 7A or 7A+ in a session season...

sorted

Pah. Got my first new 7A+ of the year on Sunday... :p

I know, I do pay attention in Power Club, not like those other boys messing around at the back.

[36chambers]

is this for 5 seconds?

Yeah. Lattice assessment hangs are 5 seconds. Not sure they have to be 1/2 crimp though.

My notes from Toms TrainingBeta podcast:
7B+ = 95%
8A/+ = 100-110%

Looks like my right hand is in the 8A/+ range and my left is ~7B+. That coincides quite nicely with my actual climbing ability.

[Murph]

Pah...
How many times to you hit a flat 20mm edge that is horizontal...? Ever?
.

Prettysure you've just described the finish "jug" on BSD...

[tomtom]

Pah...
How many times to you hit a flat 20mm edge that is horizontal...? Ever?
.

Prettysure you've just described the finish "jug" on BSD...

Not sure I've ever jumped sideways and up to a hold on my BM before

[Murph]

Not sure I've ever jumped sideways and up to a hold on my BM before

Give it hell TT. Make your next BM session count. Purposeful practice. All the beans.
   

[Murph]

7B+ = 95%
8A/+ = 100-110%

Looks like my right hand is in the 8A/+ range and my left is ~7B+. That coincides quite nicely with my actual climbing ability.

Sweet! FWIW, Tom also says that short arses have to be proportionately stronger for a given grade. Not sure if 5'7 counts as short but it's definitely not tall.