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Lose fat without losing muscle? (Read 38389 times)

Murph

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Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 11:54:37 am
Off topic from the steep board discussion. Here is a link to the ranger study I was talking about.

Not saying that this is a good way to lose weight, and the report says that the participants certainly larded up again after getting through selection. But at least initially the weightloss on this 1,000 cal/day deficit was primarily fat. At least until a bodyfat of c5% was reached, thereafter further weightloss came at the expense of lean mass.

I wouldn't imagine there is any comparison with this method versus sensible eating-training strategy. But it is what it is. Weight loss, for these rangers over the first 6 weeks of their ordeal was primarily fat loss (11kgs down to 4.8kgs) rather than Fat Free Mass loss (65kgs down to 61.7kgs).

However, in googling for that study I came across this one which looks at the impact of that sort of ordeal on power output and the results are not inspiring. However, if I had a project in mind I might be tempted to leave the ranger selection a few weeks short of what looks like breaking point, having a few days on the steak, broccoli and ice cream diet and then getting stuck into those 7As that have thus far repelled my advances.

Food for thought?






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#1 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 12:05:35 pm
Cheers Murph!
I don't know how much I'll understand in terms of statistics but I'll try.
One thing to consider is that it dates back to 1993.

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#2 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 12:51:24 pm
Yohimbe and two weeks of 1400 calories has always worked well in the past for me. With the added benefit of giving you good wood.

Murph

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#3 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:00:39 pm
One thing to consider is that it dates back to 1993.

True! But how much can human physiology really have changed in 20 years...?

I like the bit at the beginning where it says something like "humans have in their fat stores a compact reserve of 100,000 calories"...you know, just in case!



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#4 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:08:26 pm
Yohimbe and two weeks of 1400 calories has always worked well in the past for me. With the added benefit of giving you good wood.

What?

English please.[emoji12]


I know, I know, google.


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SA Chris

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#5 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:18:35 pm
It's that gorilla that got shot innit?

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#6 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:19:58 pm
On an interesting side note...
Created an account at academia.edu to read that and was immediately followed by an old Geophysicist friend I haven't spoken to in eight years-ish.


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#7 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:25:13 pm
It's that gorilla that got shot innit?
Ummm....

The man from Web MD, he say NO!




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galpinos

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#8 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:44:23 pm
It's that gorilla that got shot innit?
Ummm....

The man from Web MD, he say NO!



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Hmmm, does it say you'll end up thinking Brexit is a good idea?

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#9 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 01:44:35 pm
Yeah you shouldn't use it if you've depression, anxiety or various other conditions. Powerful stuff that african tree bark, beware!

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#10 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 02:53:06 pm
Um, yeah, fuck that.

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#11 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 03:24:08 pm
Off topic from the steep board discussion. Here is a link to the ranger study I was talking about.

(…)

Food for thought?

Thanks murph, interesting stuff!

What I find especially scary about this study:

<<Results: Vertical jump height (-16%), explosive power output (-21%), maximal lifting strength. (-20%), body mass (-13%), fat-free mass (-6%),and fat mass (-50%) declined (P< 0.05) after the training course>>

Which basically says that yes, they lost lots of weight and tons of fat, but they lost at the same time (and over-proportionally) vast amounts of power and strength, even on bodyweight-dependent test exercises like vertical jumps! So we can’t even argue that it’s only an absolute strength/power loss and not a relative one (to BW).

Also this:
<<Circulating total testosterone and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) experienced significant (…) declines, and cortisol was significantly increased>>

So in other words, what Nibs said about the metabolism getting totally trashed.

With hormonal status at that level, your ability to recover well from strenuous climbing sessions drops to almost zero (->testosterone) while your injury and particularly inflammation risk (-> cortisol) sky rockets  :o

Not ideal to say the least and clearly a last resort for very special goals. So one should check carefully if the size of the prize (e.g. importance of the project) is worth it.

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#12 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 03:59:37 pm
One thing to consider is that it dates back to 1993.

True! But how much can human physiology really have changed in 20 years...?

I like the bit at the beginning where it says something like "humans have in their fat stores a compact reserve of 100,000 calories"...you know, just in case!



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Murph, nothing against you, really. Human phisiology may not have changed in the last 20 years, but sports nutrition has.
As far as the fat storage goes, 1 kg of fat equals roughly 8.000 calories, so I doubt that we have 100.000 calories to burn without turning into a skeleton.
I would really emphasize the drop in power output and testosterone production as a guiding light.

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#13 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 04:05:46 pm
So in other words, what Nibs said about the metabolism getting totally trashed.

Yeah man - Nibs knows his shit!

These guys were really hammered though - like, they the fat levels of a bodybuilder on stage but had just been up all night playing soldiers on a hill somewhere. In the cold.

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#14 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 04:13:45 pm
Sorry guys can't reply properly, I'm at a conference. Very interesting thread!

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#15 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 04:22:42 pm
Murph, nothing against you, really.
....
I would really emphasize the drop in power output and testosterone production as a guiding light.

Hey, no offence taken - and yeah I shared it here because that second study about the hormonal impacts on power is, just what you were on about.

So it's the two things going on - until ridiculously lean, like 7% bodyfat (which is approaching competing bodybuilder level) most of the subjects in the first study predominantly lost fat rather than muscle.

Then the second study (done by a lot of the same folk but I don't think on the same subjects) says that this had a terrible impact on hormones, strength and power output.

The missing link though is, what would have happened if they had stopped their ridiculous diets a bit earlier, plateaued for a while, and then been tested.

I don't think this comparison is specific enough about the driver for the poor power and T-levels. Just last week on power club I learnt that sleep is essential for recovery and T-scores and so on... it could have been the lack of sleep that was driving the T-scores and so the poor power. I don't know if the study is specific enough.

It's all good stuff though! And absolutely not an ideal training plan.

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#16 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 04:39:58 pm
So basically 3-9 hasn't been getting any because his testosterone levels have plummeted* due to his starvation diet?

*amongst other social factors

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#17 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 05:03:59 pm
To be frank, under the conditions, sleep deprivation and hunger are part and parcel. So, bit of a chicken and egg question.
The point of the test was to find those who could continue to function in a reasonable and logical manner, despite those privations.
I've done a fair bit of survival training over the years, both military and civi and one of the primary objectives has always been to hammer home the effect of (essentially) starvation. Sleeping whilst hungry is damn hard.
The 10 day Brecon Beacon phase of my training was done entirely on Arctic ration packs (dehydrated) and there was ~3000kcal available per day (iirc). However, we were deliberately sleep deprived and worked to a point where we were (probably) burning more like 4000kcal.
The rat packs were designed to give enough energy for the average man, at moderate exertion, in sub-zero conditions; assuming you consumed the whole thing.
Those who didn't, didn't last.

In '92, I was on the Joint Services Expedition to climb Mount Pagent on South Georgia (just outside the Antarctic circle). Again, we were using Artic Rat packs. However, carrying a 60kg load, 23km across the Icecap to advanced base and climbing etc etc; I lost 2.5 Stone in 18 days.
Now, there were other complications for me (Frost nip in both feet, snow blind) but, as a 21 year old, very fit, male, it must have taken two or three months for me to recover to full fitness.

The one hour of darkness(ish) and generally failing to follow proper diurnal habits, can't have helped (sleep was here and there, usually no more than a couple of hours undisturbed.


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#18 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 05:09:49 pm
That study show an approx weight loss of 1kg per week. Which is around the rate of weight loss experienced on the Anderson Bro's recommended routine of 1400 calories per day. When I do that for a couple of weeks I reliably lose 2 kg in two weeks, then I stop and eat normally again. But maybe it's the Viagra Yohimbe.
Like you say, stopping short of total hormonal annihilation is the only sane choice. It isn't news that sustained calorie-deficit fucks you up, you only need read about the effects of eating disorders.

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#19 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 05:27:33 pm
That study show an approx weight loss of 1kg per week. Which is around the rate of weight loss experienced on the Anderson Bro's recommended routine of 1400 calories per day. When I do that for a couple of weeks I reliably lose 2 kg in two weeks, then I stop and eat normally again. But maybe it's the Viagra Yohimbe.
Like you say, stopping short of total hormonal annihilation is the only sane choice. It isn't news that sustained calorie-deficit fucks you up, you only need read about the effects of eating disorders.

I have the Andersons book (I think, training for climbing?), but not read it cover to cover. I'll remedy that.
1400 kcal seems ridiculously low, at least according to my recent studies. I know I require 2600/day to maintain my current weight/BF ratios, given my normal training/activity levels and today 3278 kcal with my session. Even when I was losing, given a similar training regimen, I was aiming for 2300kcal/day. That was shedding 0.5kg per week and almost a 1000kcal deficit on training days!



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#20 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 05:44:32 pm
Sounds like you're doing a lot of training to burn that much energy. That amount of training surely can't all be focused on training for specific climbing goal but rather more all-over health/fitness/strength? The typical Anderson routine is quite low in terms of energy expenditure and focuses purely on training for a particular route goal, pretty much to the detriment of anything else - no running, very little supplemental weight training (though still some), no other activities just 'the goal'. They're pretty OCD! Also the diet phase immediately precedes the red-pointing phase where the weight-loss counts most and is soon over and done with.

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#21 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 05:47:15 pm
Sounds like you're doing a lot of training to burn that much energy.

Thats his training for looking after three kids.

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#22 Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 06:24:20 pm
Sounds like you're doing a lot of training to burn that much energy.

Thats his training for looking after three kids.

Four.

And, yes Pete, nowhere near so focused.

But seriously, that's running to work (2k each way steep hills), doing the school run (1.5k each way, more hills), instructing group exercise classes(1.5hrs), a couple hours setting/climbing and then from 13:00 to 16:30 club swinging/sword kata/one armers/foot on campus/Bachar ladder/campus/Finger board/45* board. Then kids club (1hr) and run home. So the fitness tracker recalcs as you go. I won't eat tat much, I'll end up ~600kcal down on the recommended.

You can use online calculators to see what a typical day will burn for you on top of your BMR (and calculate your BMR), with a reasonable approximation.

This one is good:

http://acaloriecalculator.com

The ios app for that works well.

So, for a 76kg male, for a ten minute duration would give, as an example:


The smaller number being the factor by which you multiply your BMR for the given period. Obviously, errors abound, especially since it in part relies on your perception of effort.

You might notice the example is page two of twenty eight, it pretty much covers most activities.


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« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 06:29:25 pm by Oldmanmatt »

Oldmanmatt

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#23 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 06:36:15 pm
For reference, this is what my day looks like having just got home and before evening meal:



There's also a Protein shake (powder+350g skimmed milk) out of shot in the "snacks" section.

There will be a glass of Red tonight (200ml) and 27g of Galaxy.

It might seem ocd, but it's quite easy to track closely what you are doing.

Where I have preached to the converted, I apologise.


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#24 Re: Lose fat without losing muscle?
December 13, 2016, 08:10:13 pm
entirely on Arctic ration packs (dehydrated) and there was ~3000kcal available per day (iirc).
...
I lost 2.5 Stone in 18 days.
Thanks for sharing your experiences here.

Do you know if the rat packs are the same for everyone regardless of their size? Related, does everyone have to carry the same amount of kit? Just wondering out loud whether there is an advantage to being a little guy in training.

You say you were burning closer to 4K. Well if a "normal" day for you now is 3.3k, maybe you were doing a lot more than that!

Regardless, that's a solid fat club result there OMM - shame it came at such a price.

 

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