[Luke Owens]

Looking for some advice on how to structure my board sessions to make the best use of my time on it. I usually train Tue and Thurs for 2 hours and go out one day on the weekend or go on the board again if I can't get out. I could train more as the board is 5mins from my house but I feel beasted after a session on it.

I warm up for 10 - 20 mins traversing then get about 1hour 30mins on the board then warm down for 10 mins.

I have zero structure at the moment, I just randomly try problems/moves I've made up for the whole time, lately I've tried an actual Moonboard and was pretty floored by how hard even the easiest (6B+, 6C) problems are. I couldn't do most of them. The angle itself is a weakness of mine. On easier angled stuff I seem to be able to use any sort of hold size/type and have an illusion of finger strength (probably over reliant on my feet).

I spent a lot of time on the board last winter and saw small improvement on it but didn't feel my core or fingers got a noticeable amount stronger. I'm not able to kill/control any sort of swing when my feet come off and my fingers feel way weaker than what's needed for this style. I really enjoy the board, the style of board climbing is something I'm psyched to get good at but feels very hard to improve at.

Any ideas how to structure my sessions better than just randomly trying problems? Maybe some helpful drills/exercises to do on it? I did consider doing some fingerboarding but have no idea how to fit this in with the board sessions feeling so intense on the fingers.

Cheers

[36chambers]

I've become completely obsessed with board climbing over the last few years. It's almost as satisfying as the real thing.

I find it very useful to have a theme for the session beforehand, these are usually based on my current goals/projects and can be split into things like; small holds small moves, big holds big moves (etc), no cutting loose, wide moves, undercuts, AnPow, AnCap (if the board is big enough), ongoing hard board projects, replica moves, 1-2 move wonders (my current favourite), novel moves, novel holds.     

I stumbled across this gem a while ago which is an excellent general approach that I've used a few times and found useful/fun.

Trying several individual hard moves that take you more than 3 sessions at a climbing wall is surly pretty demoralising, boring and you probably end up doing very little climbing.

Why don't you give yourself 6 weeks, two sessions each week and set yourself 6 boulder problems varying between 4-8 moves on a 45 board. All problems should be different in style using different kind of holds.

Problem 1 (easiest): Should be fairly hard but suits your style and strengths, should aim to do this in a session 10-20 goes of trying super hard.
Problem 6 (Hardest): Super hard, have two back to back moves that are ridiculous. First session you should be able to tag the holds of the back to back moves individually, but not be able to hold them, the style should be something you are rubbish at/ or holds you are not very good at using. You should aim to send this on your last session of your 6th week.

All the other problems should be somewhere in between, but the harder ones should be tailored towards your weakness or a certain problem you have in mind for the real stuff that actually matters (rock). Ideally, first week, you should be able to do one of them in a sesh, week 2 should able to do two of them in a sesh, week 3, 3 of them etc etc.

Before you try any of your problems, warm up well (20-30mins) on easy problems but also pulling on some crimps, pinches or whatever type of holds your board problems have on them. Then have between 1hour- 1 1/2 hours on the board pulling as hard as you can, give 100% and no less on each try whether that being one individual moves or linking the whole problem. Remember to try and finish relatively strong.

By the end of the six weeks, you should aim to do all the 6 problems you have set in a session.

Not that I know anything about training but this is something that I tend to do if I am preparing myself to try a hard problem on rock! Probably total rubbish, but it's pretty satisfying when you send all 6 in a sesh.

Rest wise, I usually work in blocks of 10-15 minutes of climbing (with appropriate rests between attempts) and then ~10 minutes of complete rest (wandering around the wall heckling people). With maybe 4-5 blocks per session. I think I originally got this approach from RCTM's limit bouldering work out.

I have a few 1-2 move projects that I try every now and then to gauge how I'm doing. Being able to do a few from last year practically every time is very satisfying.

I've also gone as far as having an STG, MTG and LTG for the board, which are as follows;
STG: be able to properly use all of the small holds on the board.
MTG: tick off 3 specific "8A's" set on the board.
LTG: burn off Tim Palmer.

Interested to hear what other people have to say about the subject.

[Footwork]

I've become completely obsessed with board climbing over the last few years. It's almost as satisfying as the real thing.

I find it very useful to have a theme for the session beforehand, these are usually based on my current goals/projects and can be split into things like; small holds small moves, big holds big moves (etc), no cutting loose, wide moves, undercuts, AnPow, AnCap (if the board is big enough), ongoing hard board projects, replica moves, 1-2 move wonders (my current favourite), novel moves, novel holds.     

I stumbled across this gem a while ago which is an excellent general approach that I've used a few times and found useful/fun.

Trying several individual hard moves that take you more than 3 sessions at a climbing wall is surly pretty demoralising, boring and you probably end up doing very little climbing.

Why don't you give yourself 6 weeks, two sessions each week and set yourself 6 boulder problems varying between 4-8 moves on a 45 board. All problems should be different in style using different kind of holds.

Problem 1 (easiest): Should be fairly hard but suits your style and strengths, should aim to do this in a session 10-20 goes of trying super hard.
Problem 6 (Hardest): Super hard, have two back to back moves that are ridiculous. First session you should be able to tag the holds of the back to back moves individually, but not be able to hold them, the style should be something you are rubbish at/ or holds you are not very good at using. You should aim to send this on your last session of your 6th week.

All the other problems should be somewhere in between, but the harder ones should be tailored towards your weakness or a certain problem you have in mind for the real stuff that actually matters (rock). Ideally, first week, you should be able to do one of them in a sesh, week 2 should able to do two of them in a sesh, week 3, 3 of them etc etc.

Before you try any of your problems, warm up well (20-30mins) on easy problems but also pulling on some crimps, pinches or whatever type of holds your board problems have on them. Then have between 1hour- 1 1/2 hours on the board pulling as hard as you can, give 100% and no less on each try whether that being one individual moves or linking the whole problem. Remember to try and finish relatively strong.

By the end of the six weeks, you should aim to do all the 6 problems you have set in a session.

Not that I know anything about training but this is something that I tend to do if I am preparing myself to try a hard problem on rock! Probably total rubbish, but it's pretty satisfying when you send all 6 in a sesh.

Rest wise, I usually work in blocks of 10-15 minutes of climbing (with appropriate rests between attempts) and then ~10 minutes of complete rest (wandering around the wall heckling people). With maybe 4-5 blocks per session. I think I originally got this approach from RCTM's limit bouldering work out.

I have a few 1-2 move projects that I try every now and then to gauge how I'm doing. Being able to do a few from last year practically every time is very satisfying.

I've also gone as far as having an STG, MTG and LTG for the board, which are as follows;
STG: be able to properly use all of the small holds on the board.
MTG: tick off 3 specific "8A's" set on the board.
LTG: burn off Tim Palmer.

Interested to hear what other people have to say about the subject.

For the record, non of the above counts as training.

[dave]

There's a tendency these days to overcomplicate stuff with plans/regimes/protocols, but there's a lot to be said for just trying bastard hard on a lot of problems. If you're trying bastard hard then you're getting stronger, end of. So the difficult thing is in finding a set of problems you can do enough moves on to try them or do them (or almost do them) without it feeling like a waste of time. This is easiest to do on an established board with a book of problems across the grades. If you're on your own board, or on a new board without a book, or a moonboard where the grades are all over the place then be prepared to put the groundwork in and waste a lot of time making stuff up and going down dead-ends, or gravitating to train only your strengths.

So you're going to need:

- a set of escalating problems in a range of styles to get warmed up on, and crucially, to get through feeling like you're climbing well.

- a set of harder problems you expect to just do if you nail it, maybe just fail on, and a few where you are piecing together the moves on. If you're never failing it's too easy, if you're succeeding on nothing it's too hard.

- a set of fallback options if for whatever reason you're not feeling it - it could be doing your warm-up circuit but only with tiny footholds, or could be doing something on a different board angle you don't normally climb on.

The aim should be to always keep the psyche high, to always make sure that you're getting enough actual climbing in (easy to miss if you're stuck projecting stuff way too hard, or wasting time setting problems), always trying bastard hard, and crucially to always take away some kind of victory from the session no matter how tiny. Then psyche will prevail and you'll stick at it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[tomtom]

Good words Dave. I do this at walls. Get warmed up then get stuck into problems straight away that I can't do - but am not completely shut down on.

[PipeSmoke]

I try and have a session or 2 every couple of weeks with someone else , just making problems and trying some random stuff. Just because when I make my own problems I seem to trend towards similar holds/moves. So it's good to get shutdown and try hard on something different. Climbing on a board with someone else can also be pretty good for trying hard , a bit of friendly competition. Unless they flash your project

[Oldmanmatt]

To add to Dave's wise words, I like to do the following when developing a problem on a well filled board. It works for me.

Using the poorest foot placements I can, find a couple/a hold(s) that I can only just pull off the mat with. Find something a suitable distance up that I can just about pull on using one of/the first hold(s) and so on. Evolving the problem as I go. Since the next hold position is determined by the "hold I find hard to hold" algorithm, rather than the "what can I reach next" version, I get forced into making moves I wouldn't "choose" to do otherwise. In other words, it usually means making a move that feels less natual, than I might have chosen.

If that makes any sense.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Luke Owens]

Cheers guys, some great advice all around.

Realised why I was getting demoralised before, I was just warming up traversing then getting stuck into 1 or 2 problems on the board for 1.5hr, maybe managing the odd link of a couple or few moves here and there.

Last night was much better, came up with some good easier warm up problems and set 6 problems of increasing difficulty. I did the first one after about 10 goes, then worked on the 2nd and 3rd.

I've identified a more accurate weakness too, big moves on good holds shut me down, but I find small moves on small holds relatively easy in comparison. Added some better holds to the board and included some big moves on and off them in my set of 6.

Cheers!

[SA Chris]

I think from a psyche / morale  / ego perspective it's good to get one or two harder new problems  / longer term projects (week or more) ticked in every session, so you don't feel you have come away empty handed having done nothing but a few easier problems done as warmups plus continual failure on harder projects. That's how I feel anyway, even if it's only an extra problem or two.

[Oldmanmatt]

having done nothing but a few easier problems done as warmups plus continual failure on harder projects.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up my current climbing life; both indoor and out.

I quite like it though. It's been 38 years since I started. Endlessly ticking things I can do after a session (or even four) lost it's appeal somewhere.
I've reached a point, at the moment, where I pick a monster and work it to death [emoji88].
Currently I'm obsessed with doing Saddle Tor traverse by the old method/broken hold.
I go, warm up, set a timer (4min on, 5 off) and work the moves.
My board sessions are the same, really.
So, in a lot of ways; the opposite of Doylo, Chris et al.

I have even recreated a (harder) approximation of the problem on the board and spend several minutes of each session working it (on a Monday, session on the rock every Thurs, weather permitting).

Not quite as clockwork as it sounds.
Nearly...
[emoji12]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Three Nine]

Might head to Saddle on sunday if you're about?

[Oldmanmatt]

Bristol for panto.
Weekends suck when you have four kids. Perks of being the boss though, I take a day off during the week and my partner/boss(51%)/Fiancée covers the wall. This is usually a Thursday. Guess which day is the only day of rain forecast this week?
I'll chuck the pads in the van, just incase tomorrow, but I think it's race training day only.
If you're around during the week, I don't mind publicly embarrassing myself, falling off things and sharing a flask of coffee...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Paul B]

Varian once said something like you need to stop judging the success of a session in terms of problems and think of moves, or even just progress on moves as success.

Warm up (thoroughly, don't rush it or do too much)
Try something (problem / moves) near limit with ample rest between attempts (tricky if you're on your own)
Starting to tire? Quick warmdown and finish (stop strong).

Training strength or power is brutally efficient.

One of the many joys of the School was that you have a booklet full of problems set by people likely to have very different strengths / weaknesses to yourself; Jens once told me off for putting School problems on my scorecard. I reprimanded him and he then asked me to write him an article (I declined).

[Durbs]

Hope this is relevant, but from my circus days, went to many a workshop and seminar including some excellent ones on training.

One of the best lessons I took away from one of these was “Always finish a practice session on a high”. This was in the context of learning a new trick, but applies just as well to most practise/training things. If you have a training session, and finish feeling deflated/beaten/frustrated your motivation to return next time will lessen, and your pre-psyche when you do will be less.
Finishing up with something “fun” keeps the love alive and the desire strong. In juggling terms, this was usually putting on some tunes and having a play – so guess the same would apply for board training – do some daft dynos, climb a route you used to struggle on (“I can do it now even though I’m knackered – progress!”), play +2 with a mate (and win).

This may be hippy talk, but it worked for me :D

[Teaboy]

or a moonboard where the grades are all over the place

Is this the case at all grades then and not just down at the shallow end? Certainly in the 6b+ grade the problems range from flash-able to a series of moves each one alone must be 7a

[Duma]

In my experience they get more reliable above 7A. The lower end stuff is def all over the shop - probably exacerbated by the feet follow thing - means stuff is more likely to be very morpho I think.

[Muenchener]

Hope so. Being fairly tall I find I usually manage the first couple of hand moves on "6B+", then lever myself off the board trying to get a foot up from the kickboard onto the starting handhold at waist height.

[dave]

Does that not indicate that the starting handholds are just too high?

[36chambers]

I always thought the foot follows hand idea seemed pretty daft. Surely all usable hand holds are jugs for the feet.

[Will Hunt]

I always thought the foot follows hand idea seemed pretty daft. Surely all usable hand holds are jugs for the feet.

 

And you get shoe rubber over your handholds.

[dave]

Depends on the handholds (it's certainly not the case on the school 50). But if all the holds on a board are big flat angular blocks of resin, then mainly yes.

[T_B]

I've found this on the Moon Board. Is it not to do with the grid layout of the holds and overall lack of hold density? It is an 'issue' on a few problems on the 50 Degree (e.g. Too Fluffy first couple of moves), but I find the grades all over the shop on the MB. Often I'm stretched out and clearly lanking it, or it's too high a high step for me.

[dave]

There's no high-steps-off-the-kickboard moves on Too Fluffy innit?

[Luke Owens]

Glad to hear other people think the sub 7A stuff on the Moonboard is all over the shop grade wise. Ben Moons problems especially seem ridiculous at the grade. I could barely do any of the moves on Wuthering Heights, Far From the Madding Crowds, Hocus Pocus and Tess... All sub 7A

[T_B]

There's no high-steps-off-the-kickboard moves on Too Fluffy innit?

[ducko]

Sounds to me like you'd benefit from some basic training (fingerboarding,core workout) as well as your board sessions.
When I do sessions on the board I have a few hard projects all the time which I'll try the moves on but for me I will look at the holds and try come up with short hard problems that I know ill struggle on, if I can do the individual moves im happy if I link it just about that's good but I like to struggle on the moves. I also set short problems I think I should be able to do then I'll attempt it four times then do another it's handy to train with someone doing this then you don't always set your style.
There's no science behind my board climbing but it does seem to work.
In the words of ty landman and malc smith big move small foot and hand holds!

[turnipturned]

Done a fair amount of board climbing in my time.

I think tailoring you board (what board you use) to what you want to do. If you want to climb hard in the UK, then I would say 45 or less is a good angle. This allows you to climb on small handholds using small or bad (or slopey) feet.

If you want to climb hard aboard, i.e Swiss, US, Rocklands etc. I would use a steeper board, 50-65, bigger hand holds, where you are inclined to do bigger moves with your feet coming off.

In terms of structure;

When starting out on a new board, or changing it up; I try and get 10 problems that I can do, that are about 80% of your level, mixture of holds, styles etc. The aim is to be able to do them all within three sessions, to eventually being about to flash them all on your first go a few sessions later. That gives you a good base and something to default back too. I then try and get around 5 problems that are around 90-95% (maybe tailor them to similar things you want to do on rock). Then over the next couple of months I try and do them all in a session. I then have some ultra hard problems, that try when feeling good.

With this structure, its good for when you are not feeling good or cant try hard. In those cases, I then go back to my original 10 and add weight, up to 5kg. I think this is great for trying hard, as you know you can do the problems fairly easily, but the added weight just makes you work that little bit harder.

Now and then, I also try and climb a little bit on different boards

I think Dave is right, trying really hard for 1.30hrs is the key, trying to finish on a high. I was talking to a friend as well, who also goes with the approach of concentrating one problem (maybe one of the 5 90-95%) and just trying to get it done in the session, which I guess is good training for climbing on rock.

Stretching during rests is maybe a good idea, time efficient at least

Finally, if you are climbing on a 45, i think you are mainly working fingers and finger power, therefore, a small rings/trx/core session afterwards is acheivable.

Hope that helps, not that I am anything to aspire too or have much 'training' knowledge.

[dave]

There's no high-steps-off-the-kickboard moves on Too Fluffy innit?

That's cos he's doing it wrong!

See 02:45 on here

To be fair this makes it no harder but has the benefit of making it flow so the next move not a high step. I was infact told by someone (Bennet?) that this was an unwritten rule/convention on this prob.

[mctrials23]

Are there any walls that have a moonboard in the london area. Can't seem to find anywhere and I would like to have a go on one.

[andy_e]

People can say what they want about Simpson but those one-armers at the end always get me psyched to try hard.

[Three Nine]

Glad to hear other people think the sub 7A stuff on the Moonboard is all over the shop grade wise. Ben Moons problems especially seem ridiculous at the grade. I could barely do any of the moves on Wuthering Heights, Far From the Madding Crowds, Hocus Pocus and Tess... All sub 7A

I've had 5+ sessions on dynosaur 6B+ and not done it, over same period as doing 8b route and stacks of 8a+ routes outside. Yet to climb 7A by a long shot. Only managed two 6Cs.

[Paul B]

Is there not a consensus grade system on the app?

[Duma]

if you log a problem you can vote on the grade - seemed a bit much faff tbh though, not that I spend any time on it.

[JonB]

Mint thread, some great stuff here. Can't wait to start training somewhere with a good board again.

[Nibile]

Lots of good advice here.
My 2 cents.
I don't think it's really necessary to stress over a plan or structure, just climbing according to feelings is enough, with a good setting and a good mindset.
People often complain that board climbing doesn't make their fingers strong: that's because they have a bad setting.
You can hang every hold if the footholds are good enough.
So, it's crucial to have tiny footholds and to force oneself not to cut loose.
This could be useless in terms of climbing a certain problem, but it has a big effect on power. The more muscles are involved, the bigger the power output.
Then, instead of thinking about big/small moves on big/small holds, think in terms of single moves at the limit, regardless of the type. Put your body in contrieved positions, make holds harder to hang with cross throughs, bounces, hard catches, deadpoints, etc. Alternate steady but tiring start sequences with short, brutal cruxes and long hard finishes.
And underclings. Work on underclings.
Basically, come climbing chez moi.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers guys, loads of good knowledge!

Couple of questions, any advice on when to fit in a small amount of max hangs on the fingerboard? I like to have rest days from actually pulling on holds so is it worthwhile before/after sessions?

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

Cheers

[rjtrials]

I have had great success with 3-5 sets of hangs after 15-20 minutes of warming up.  I do a single grip, 4 finger half crimp, and vary the time/weight/edge size in accordance with my long term training goals.

Then continue to warmup doing increasingly harder problems for 15-20 min and then get into limit bouldering.

[highrepute]

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

You can't train strength when you're tired.

[Luke Owens]

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

You can't train strength when you're tired.

Cheers, so is it OK to go do a load of endurance based stuff after strength? Anyone know if this dilutes the effectiveness of the strength training?

[36chambers]

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

You can't train strength when you're tired.

Furthermore, at a basic level, if you completely trash yourself it will take considerably longer for your body to recover. So if you want to train hard two days later you may be so fatigued that the next session may do more damage than good.

[highrepute]

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

You can't train strength when you're tired.

Cheers, so is it OK to go do a load of endurance based stuff after strength? Anyone know if this dilutes the effectiveness of the strength training?

Yes it's OK. The common guidance is to start with strength if training multiple systems within a single session.

It may compromise your strength training if you use up to much energy and your body fails to recover from the strength training. Recovery being important, hence the fascination with protein.

If you only do a little then it may improve your strength training efficiency. Aerocap as a warm down for example.

In the middle of these is probably the optimum you're looking for. A pure boulderer wouldn't have a problem they'd just boulder all the time. But you clearly want the extra strength for routes. How much fitness and how effective it will be depends on yourself. I've done an hour of strength followed by an hour of fitness in the past. Hayden will 5 hours of strength followed by 5 hours of fitness before heading out for a night session at the tor, this clearly works well for him.

One thing I've found is that fitness leaves me feeling more tired which makes a strength session the next day harder, so I only tend to mix if I've got a rest day coming up.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers, makes a lot of sense.

I'm struggling to figure out how best to fit all the different facets in at the moment, without overdoing it and resting enough.

Tues, Thurs and Sat or Sun is all I do at the moment, could do more but adding a session on Wednesday for example would effect Thursday and adding a session Friday would effect the weekend, etc. etc. Should maybe experiment with 2 on 1 off...

[Doylo]

I wouldn't do max hangs and a board sesh on the same day. Doesn't feel nice!

[SA Chris]

Doesn't feel nice!

Best scientific explanation ever.

[Three Nine]

Cheers, makes a lot of sense.

I'm struggling to figure out how best to fit all the different facets in at the moment, without overdoing it and resting enough.

Tues, Thurs and Sat or Sun is all I do at the moment, could do more but adding a session on Wednesday for example would effect Thursday and adding a session Friday would effect the weekend, etc. etc. Should maybe experiment with 2 on 1 off...

All the strength then endurance on the same day programming stuff has been covered here in detail before, but its worth remembering that if you're going to do eg. boulder then aeropow in the same day (if life dictates), rest as long as you can in between. The ideal scenario if you have to do both in one day would be strength in morning, aeropow in evening. If only got the evening, can you have an hour between them?

[Doylo]

Doesn't feel nice!

Best scientific explanation ever.

I got a C in Science.

[SA Chris]

That's no good, there are supposed to be 2.

[Luke Owens]

All the strength then endurance on the same day programming stuff has been covered here in detail before, but its worth remembering that if you're going to do eg. boulder then aeropow in the same day (if life dictates), rest as long as you can in between. The ideal scenario if you have to do both in one day would be strength in morning, aeropow in evening. If only got the evening, can you have an hour between them?

I train when the kids are in bed and the wall is 5 mins down the road so I can go any evening for a couple of hours. I've just got into a habit of doing Tues, Thurs, Sat or Sun.

I get 30mins for lunch in work and at one point did do max hangs during this time, but it was a bit difficult to warm up enough to not feel like I was going to injure myself.

[Murph]

Luke - there's no sense trying too much at once. As others have said, you can't train strength and power when you are feeling weak and tired. Specially if you're not sleeping well. And endurance / fitness - that's the quickest stuff to train.

Depending on your goals and timescales, if you have 3-4 sessions a week and your project/season date is 8+ weeks off then you could prioritise strength & power (fb and limit bouldering and actual strength if necessary) With a session a week of fitness/endurance stuff. Then as you get closer to having to perform could switch the focus, drop the FB down to a minimum/maintenance, and up the mileage.

Thinking behind this is that strength lasts for ages but fitness comes and goes. Enough trainers and rockstars have said this for it to almost certainly be true. Jerry says something on the cafe craft video I think about having hard days and easy days depending on how you feel. And getting strength and power up so everything feels easy. Plus, -a week or two before going to font you drop the calories down to 1,000 a day and power:weight skyrockets.

Maybe slightly off topic, but this steep board climbing business is only ever going to be part of a bigger training plan. Please say if any of this sounds barking mad! 

[ducko]

In my personal experience which is limited and unscientific I think like most that fingers need to be the first thing you target, warm up well so you can perform half crimps on your desired edge fine without feeling tweaky or under warmed up.
Do your weighted hangs or one arm hangs ( if you haven't seen Chris Webb parsons finger training video search for it )
You could then finish off the session with core or pull ups or various other things that will give you more strength.
Maybe you should get a friend to critique your climbing to help put you on the best path with your training.
For me a day off fingers training is always wise after having a heavy finger workout but my pulleys are made of glass..

[BicepsMou]

I've heard people say quite a bit that you should finish your sessions strong and not beasted, whats the SCIENCE behind this?

You can't train strength when you're tired.

Cheers, so is it OK to go do a load of endurance based stuff after strength? Anyone know if this dilutes the effectiveness of the strength training?

Actually there’s been research indicating that both training goals compromise each other when being trained to closely together, even if its AeroCap and strength.

http://www.8weeksout.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/molecular-responses-to-strength-and-endurance-training-are-they-incompatible-2009.pdf
 
Basically what this says is (summary quotes copied from here http://www.8weeksout.com/2016/06/01/3-things-to-stop-for-better-conditioning/ ):
 
<<…when trained independently, resistance training causes a signaling cascade which alters gene expression resulting in a higher rate of protein synthesis relative to protein degradation. The net result is muscular hypertrophy.

Endurance training leads to its own signaling cascade which promotes an aerobic adaptation: the creation of new mitochondria, or mitochondrial biogenesis.

When both endurance and resistance training are performed in high volumes together, neither of them lead to their respective adaptations as effectively and results are compromised. In other words, concurrent training causes sub-optimal activation of both signaling pathways for everyone but beginners (…) >>

The conclusion seems to be that for optimal effectiveness, there has to be a clearly prioritized development goal within one training block or period (e.g. finger strength), while the other physical aspects (e.g. finger endurance) should simply be maintained with a much lower training stimulus over this period of time.
 
So to come back to the original question, it seems to be OK to train concurrent stuff as strength and endurance in one session, but you should have a clearly prioritized goal where most of the training stimulus / load is focused upon, whereas the other aspect is simply being treated with a lower maintenance stimulus / load.

So basically, what Murph and others have stated above, simply said in a bit more complicated way 

[Nibile]

Plus, -a week or two before going to font you drop the calories down to 1,000 a day and power:weight skyrockets.

Sorry Murph, but I think you're completely wrong.
What could have worked for Jerry, isn't necessarily going to work for others.
A sudden cut in calories, like to about half as you suggest, is going to eat you alive, literally. You'll drop a lot of weight, the vast majority of which will be muscle. Your body fat percentage will raise despite the decreased weight, and I seriously doubt that you'll retain much power. Not to mention that you'll feel miserable, hungry and sad.
Plus, you risk seriously fucking up your metabolism, so that after that trip you'll gain weight, this time in terms of pure body fat, by simply looking at food.

HTH

[Murph]

Your body fat percentage will raise despite the decreased weight, and I seriously doubt that you'll retain much power. Not to mention that you'll feel miserable, hungry and sad.
Plus, you risk seriously fucking up your metabolism, so that after that trip you'll gain weight, this time in terms of pure body fat, by simply looking at food.

HTH

Cheers nibs

Everyone's mileage varies but a sudden drop in calories (while keeping protein up) produced, for me, fantastic results this year. I didn't quite go down to 1,000 but wasn't much above 1,500. I was in fantastic shape relatively speaking and got loads done. I would recommend trying it it to anyone for whom weight is an issue.

Challenge to maintain send weight after when the immediate need is gone but can report that I have eat, rather than just look, at the tasty foods to gain.

There's a dead interesting study out there on us ranger training and how ripped they got on a ridiculous energy deficit....most lost primarily fat mass and spared muscle, but some went catabolic quite quickly and really struggled. Can look up link if you are interested.

Off topic?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nibile]

Cheers Murph.
It could be interesting to read that study about US Rangers, even though I know for sure that in that environment there's a big use of chemicals.
With regards to dropping calories, there's a huge difference between 1.000 and 1.500, as you know.
It also depends on bodyweight, metabolism, supplements taken, mental energy and the likes. So, I don't say that it doesn't work - it's been around in the climbing world since forever, so... - but in my opinion it should be used as the last resort to tick something extremely special, and not to gain a quick tick that could be obtained otherwise.

I have a personal point of view about specific dieting for performance, and I reckon I'm biased in my judgement, but again, I think that most people could simply do with better eating, better training, better lifestyle.
In my case, for instance, I've experimented the opposite. I'm 2,5 kg heavier than two years ago (same bodyfat %) and never felt so strong; climbed at my highest level on the board and had good ticks on rock too. I'm athletically more performant in general.
Anyway...

[Oldmanmatt]

There's a dead interesting study out there on us ranger training and how ripped they got on a ridiculous energy deficit....most lost primarily fat mass and spared muscle, but some went catabolic quite quickly and really struggled. Can look up link if you are interested.

Off topic?

Yes please.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Murph]

Cheers Murph.

Yes please.

started a new thread here