[andy popp]

Also unsealed today, Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty earlier this month to lying to the FBI. Apparently the charges cite interactions between him and Russian intermediaries. He is, we are told, a cooperating witness.

[Oldmanmatt]

Bizarre that any other Western leader would have been brought down by the merest fraction of the scandals that surround Trump and yet he remains.
It’s quite hard to see how anything will remove him.
It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.
I hope that’s not what is happening here too...

[andy popp]

It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.

I think that take is too pessimistic.

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.

I think that take is too pessimistic.

Will you still say that if he’s still in office when Mueller is done?

[andy popp]

It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.

I think that take is too pessimistic.

Will you still say that if he’s still in office when Mueller is done?

That depends on what Mueller finds. Mueller's role is not to get him out at all costs (much as we might want that outcome) but to try and establish the truth, so far as possible. I will get really worried if he fires Mueller and/or pardons those indicted: either of those actions would take us into crisis territory.

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.

I think that take is too pessimistic.

Will you still say that if he’s still in office when Mueller is done?

That depends on what Mueller finds. Mueller's role is not to get him out at all costs (much as we might want that outcome) but to try and establish the truth, so far as possible. I will get really worried if he fires Mueller and/or pardons those indicted: either of those actions would take us into crisis territory.

Pessimism is the way ahead.

If I’m right, I have the satisfaction of being right.

If I’m wrong, I have the joy of being pleasantly surprised...

😉😜

[tomtom]

It’s a shame to see a nation and it’s democracy die, but I think that’s what we’re watching.

I think that take is too pessimistic.

Wait 'til he pardons those that get convicted....

[Teaboy]

The following is a good précis of what's happened and what might happen, it doesn't make for pleasant reading and there seems to be strident tone compared to other WaPo articles, considering this isn't really a comment piece:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/10/31/trump-and-his-allies-are-laying-the-groundwork-for-a-saturday-night-massacre/

Edit: Obviously it is an opinion but in the main section rather than some deliberately incendiary comment column designed to provoke the below the line commenters

[andy popp]

The following is a good précis of what's happened and what might happen, it doesn't make for pleasant reading and there seems to be strident tone compared to other WaPo articles, considering this isn't really a comment piece:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/10/31/trump-and-his-allies-are-laying-the-groundwork-for-a-saturday-night-massacre/

Edit: Obviously it is an opinion but in the main section rather than some deliberately incendiary comment column designed to provoke the below the line commenters

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about in terms of the potential for crisis. The key issue however will be political and public responses where he to do something similar to the Saturday night massacre. Would the GOP continue to hold the line for him?

[Nigel]

Now that something "concrete" seems to be happening in relation to the "Russia thing" other than just noise, can anyone explain what exactly they (Russia) are meant to have done? I've bothered myself more with UK stuff of late to be honest. I've tried to read up the current situation briefly and as far as I can make out there's an allegation that they might have hacked some of the Clinton campaign's emails and given them to Wikileaks, and also something about paid Facebook adverts. Is that it or is there, er, more? Is the claim really that this is why he won the election???

[tomtom]

Now that something "concrete" seems to be happening in relation to the "Russia thing" other than just noise, can anyone explain what exactly they (Russia) are meant to have done? I've bothered myself more with UK stuff of late to be honest. I've tried to read up the current situation briefly and as far as I can make out there's an allegation that they might have hacked some of the Clinton campaign's emails and given them to Wikileaks, and also something about paid Facebook adverts. Is that it or is there, er, more? Is the claim really that this is why he won the election???

I believe that's probably at the lenient end of the spectrum of possibles...

The upper end is that $millions has been channeled to Trump companies in payment/bribe for winning.

From what I've read accepting help from a foreign power to help manipulate an election result comes under the definition of Treason..

[Oldmanmatt]

The following is a good précis of what's happened and what might happen, it doesn't make for pleasant reading and there seems to be strident tone compared to other WaPo articles, considering this isn't really a comment piece:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/10/31/trump-and-his-allies-are-laying-the-groundwork-for-a-saturday-night-massacre/

Edit: Obviously it is an opinion but in the main section rather than some deliberately incendiary comment column designed to provoke the below the line commenters

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about in terms of the potential for crisis. The key issue however will be political and public responses where he to do something similar to the Saturday night massacre. Would the GOP continue to hold the line for him?

Yes, they will.

They want they’re Xtian ISIL nation and the big T is their ticket.

That they have not broken with him already, despite a few prominent Reps (the last few with honourable intent?) publicly turning on him; does not bode well.

Edit:

Though this is nice:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/john-mccain-trump-speech-conspiracy-theories-propaganda-attack-a8029571.html

[Nigel]

I believe that's probably at the lenient end of the spectrum of possibles...

The upper end is that $millions has been channeled to Trump companies in payment/bribe for winning.

From what I've read accepting help from a foreign power to help manipulate an election result comes under the definition of Treason..

So is it also alleged that the Russian government directly helped fund Trump's campaign? Is that what you mean there? Or they paid him afterwards, a sort of "performance bonus"?

I get the treason thing, its just that from what I've read so far while trying to catch up I've yet to see anything explosive to say the least. Hacking some emails, and chucking a few roubles at Facebook and billboard adverts just seems a bit, well, flaky. I was expecting them to have demonstrably hacked voting machines in swing states or Trump to have been off grid for 5 years living in Moscow or something like that. Am I missing something? Its just if I was the government of Russia and I wanted to swing the US election I'd like to think I'd make a better fist of it than that! I hold no brief for Trump and want him gone as much as the next man but it looks a bit desperate if that's it.

[tomtom]

Its just if I was the government of Russia and I wanted to swing the US election I'd like to think I'd make a better fist of it than that!

If I was Putin - I'd think we played that one perfectly! JUST enough to swing the vote - but not so much it was obvious...

[andy popp]

We know that Russia interfered in the election. I think there is some evidence they probably tried to hack voting machines. But they definitely hacked and released Clinton's emails, which often then became the subject of increasingly lurid/untruthful narratives that were very damaging to her. Russian operatives placed huge numbers of negative or false news stories on social media - Facebook today told Congress that stories generated by Russian operatives were seen by up to 126 million US Facebook users. At least 1,000 anti-Clinton videos generated by Russian operatives appeared on 18 different Youtube channels. Russian trolls and bots then commented on all of these stories and videos in order to spread them further. This was all highly targeted, again (I think) using hacked information to reach the most susceptible voters in key states. It is probably impossible to know whether the outcome would have been different without this activity. But given the insane, highly damaging and often entirely false stories millions of US voters believe about Clinton I think that it did. Before we consider any other issue, I believe this makes the Trump administration illegitimate. Russia has undertaken similar operations in other recent European elections. These operations were highly professional and far from flaky. Electoral processes are being deeply compromised and I think its a mistake to be so relaxed about it.

The only question is whether any of this was done in collusion or coordination with the Trump campaign. Did the campaign have inside knowledge of what was happening? Did they provide information to or receive it from Russia or Russian surrogates? Did either party provide funding or other kinds of support to the other? Are Trump and other family members and close associates financially comprised vis-a-vis Russian entities, such as banks? We certainly know there multiple meetings between members of the campaign and Russian actors or surrogates.

[Nigel]

Its just if I was the government of Russia and I wanted to swing the US election I'd like to think I'd make a better fist of it than that!

If I was Putin - I'd think we played that one perfectly! JUST enough to swing the vote - but not so much it was obvious...

Well yes, quite. I guess that's my point - it really isn't obvious! For instance, why is it obvious that hacking and releasing some of Hillary's emails swung voters (and in just the right amounts!)? What was in them? Was it worse than the Trump pussy grabbing stuff (must have been!!). Good job they didn't release more / less or it would have been transparent. I guess that's just how evil mastermind Russian presidents play it. Judged to perfection. 

[petejh]

Whatever the Russians are supposed to have done to swing voter sentiment against Clinton it had to have been enough to negate various acts of seeming self-destruction by Trump - such as the damaging report by an ex MI6 officer alleging Trump hired Russian prostitutes to perform golden showers, among other ''perverted sex acts'', on the same Moscow hotel bed used by the Obama's during official visits - ''in an expression of hate for the former president and first lady''. While Russian intelligence video-taped it. For use as leverage or blackmail material...

I didn't see that one in Charlie Brooker's 'Black Mirror'...

Now just waiting for the meltdown when Trump is blackmailed into fucking a pig live on CNN.. although that might strengthen his support in some states..

[andy popp]

May be paywalled: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/russian-ads-now-publicly-released-show-sophistication-of-influence-campaign/2017/11/01/d26aead2-bf1b-11e7-8444-a0d4f04b89eb_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-low_techads-115pm-winner%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.95e9f1641db9

[andy popp]

Trump was elected one year ago today. I had planned to write something that looked back over the past year, which was bound to have been depressing and pessimistic. Instead, I'm going to celebrate the great results in the state and local elections that took place across the country. There are the headline stories, particularly the Democrats taking the governorship of Virginia but also a host of encouraging firsts: from the numerous cities that elected their first black mayor (from Montana to New Hampshire) or the transgender woman who beat a well established old GOP bigot, back in Virginia. These stories go right down to the micro-level. A friend of ours worked incredibly hard running a slate of candidates for the school board in a nearby small - and deeply Trump - town. School boards are incredibly important and this one had been run by crazies (evolution and climate change to be taught only as theories alongside other "theories" etc.); but last night they lost control. It was a great night!

[Oldmanmatt]

You forgot this 24 carat nugget, almost the pick if the crop too:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections-chris-hurst-virginia-state-house-win-nra-democrat-republican-girlfriend-shot-dead-live-a8043321.html

[Oldmanmatt]

End Ex.
Return and stow all gear.
Maybe?
(Please).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-shares-information-senior-trump-official-fbi-pleading/

[andy popp]

My ability to get any work done today is completely shot.

[Oldmanmatt]

(Whistles).
The day the music died 🎶🎵🎶

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42424666
 

[Will Hunt]

That's just rhetoric - and of little consequence.
I fully expect that inter-state support of each other in this vote or that vote forms a fundamental part of international affairs. "You support us on this and we'll support you on that", and the converse, is surely the bedrock of political negotiation. Names will always be taken.

The only unusual thing here is to see the threat issued on social media. But that's entirely in line with the administration's wish to be seen by voters to be "tough" (whatever that means) on an international stage. It's more for the xenophobic nature of 3rd party onlookers than it is for the states being browbeaten.

[Oldmanmatt]

And yet, he raised the stakes again and threatened direct consequences after that initial report was made.
Some of the Arab media outlets I follow are somewhat less sangine than you Will.
Nations that bang-up tourists and ex-pat workers for seemingly innocuous Facebook posts are less inured the such “Rhetoric” than we are and way more prone to seeing “Mortal insult”...

Diplomacy exists for a reason. Scratch that veneer and humanity’s essential, craven, brutality is all too real. In the context of other statements by the Orange Baboon, over the last week; certain populous and powerful Dragon fanciers are likely pondering how best to chop down the tree said Baboon brachiates in...