[jwi]

I filmed myself climbing the other day. It was really embarrassing to watch. My most obvious problem is that I have very little control in the shoulders. My shoulders roll forward and up toward my ears on steep terrain (a habit that is not helped by my weak fingers that are making me prone to lift the elbows). When I loose all control of the shoulders it is very hard to start movements from something else than bending the arms... making me look like a total beginner.

I want to do something about this, and I am trying to put together a programme of stretches, activation exercises and some compound movements / shoulder sling exercises.

It seems like that my main problems are 1) lack of mobility, 2) weakness in all isolated movement around the shoulder joint, in particular in adduction in the medial and transversal planes. It should perhaps be mentioned that I am astoundingly week in upward rotation of the shoulder girdle (like in military press, an exercise where I cannot handle more weight then untrained people).

Please hit me with your best shoulder exercises, stretches etc! (I have access to a pull up bar, a floor, bands, and  dumbells, but not much weights (can buy a little bit more if necessary))

[erm, sam]

Where to begin!
I think wall angels are a really good place to start with shoulder excersises. They start to train the shoulder blade stabilisers to switch on properly and start to stretch the lats and other muscles that pull the shoulders forwards and down.
Also when you get into them they work really well for starting to think about upper thorasic mobility that is typically poor in climbers and contributes to bad posture and poor overhead extension.

So they work on a range of issues in one thing.



Chin down and extend hands to above head in the end, if you can.

There are SO many excersises to improve the shoulders, in so many different ways the problem is deciding which ones to focus on...

[erm, sam]

Wall angels are the excercise that keeps on giving. Here is another perspective on them that I think is interesting.

Where he has the straight arm here, it is super important to have shoulders down and elbows facing in and back as much as possible. There is a lot of difference in terms of stretching value if the arms are properly straight with the inner elbows facing in and back, compared to a slight bend with the inner elbows facing each other more directly.. If you experiment with it you will know what I mean.. I think Kstar would call it internally rotated.

[dave]

German hang/skinningthe cat on a bar?

[rjtrials]

IYT's

Especially T's on trx or ring setup.  Game changer for me to be able to keep my scapula retracted during hard moves,  instead of the shoulders rolling forward.

[Nibile]

If your shoulders lock up to the ears it's also lack of strength in the lower traps, rhomboids and lats. All work as scapulae depressors, that is what you want.
Try doing the first part of a pull up just by depressing the scapulae.

[thekettle]

Another vote for IYTs here. I do them face down on rings, dropping really deep in to stretch pecs and lats. Unlike vast amounts of stretching, theraband and physio work, IYTs have been a clear game changer for my shoulder stability (which was so poor it lead to double shoulder surgery before 30). Twist push-ups with a light dumbell in each hand also seem good for scapular control.

[jwi]

Thanks for the recommendations!

From the wall angels it is clear just how big problem I have with mobility. I've been doing them for a while, and there is no way I can keep my forearms to the wall and having any kind of range of motion.

Will try the IYT's front&back and report back.

It is tricky to analyse what's wrong when comes to individual muscles. I'm OK at pull-ups, and not crap at hanging rows & similar. OK at push-ups & muscle-ups. (Absolutely not ok overhead). None of the bigger muscles on front and back look underdeveloped for someone my size.

So far I'm looking at
Stretches
Static stretches +
Shoulder dislocations


Activation exercises
Wall angels
Serratus push ups
Plank Shoulder Taps
Band pull apart
External rotation w/ band
Hanging shrugs (might give impingment?)
Band deltoid raise
Dumbell reverse flys
Wall slides (glenohumeral abbduction)

Compound movements
IYT front
IYT back
Partial pull-up behind neck

[Muenchener]

I can add one my physio recommended to me for outward rotator activation: lying prone on the floor, pull a broomstick from arms straight overhead to behind your neck.

[jwi]

Nice. That one hit a problematic spot on my right shoulder very hard.

[kelvin]

I can add one my physio recommended to me for outward rotator activation: lying prone on the floor, pull a broomstick from arms straight overhead to behind your neck.

Is this arms overhead and in mid air or overhead as in on the floor?

[jwi]

I was assuming prone as in face-down?

[kelvin]

That'd work. Cheers.

Trying everything now that I have some mobility to work with. The angel wings thing shows up just how lacking I am but doen't help to much to address the issues I think.

[Muenchener]

I can add one my physio recommended to me for outward rotator activation: lying prone on the floor, pull a broomstick from arms straight overhead to behind your neck.

Is this arms overhead and in mid air or overhead as in on the floor?

Lying face down on the floor, arms just above horizontal.

[mrjonathanr]

Interesting stuff. Reading round some of Christopher Sommer's blogposts I gained the clear impression he believed most non gymnasts were so lacking in basic mobility that pushing strength exercises hard would only result in injury unless mobility issues were first addressed as the number one priority.

[Muenchener]

He discusses that at length in his podcast with Tim Ferriss. Basically doesn't think most adults should be allowed  anywhere near rings without several months of remedial mobility first.

[mrjonathanr]

I listened to that, he's pretty insistent. Hmm.. Wonder why my shoulder is giving me grief at the mo.... Should have listened again maybe.

Anyway Muenchener, (sorry OP) I have a question, if you would:  http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,27492.0.html

Danke!

[erm, sam]

Wow, just listening to that podcast. I thought I was working on mobility but I now realise I have to work harder!

[mrjonathanr]

Maybe with consideration
https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/mobility-desk-workers-table-rocks/

[kelvin]

Well, that was an interesting listen for the most part.

Interestingly, the exercise he first thought everyone should do, jeffereson curls, is the one I definitely couldn't get near doing - tight hamstrings and solid thoracic etc.

Thanks for the heads up.

[BicepsMou]

<<Hanging shrugs>>

Do you mean the same thing as scapular pull-ups?

->  

 Otherwise, I’d highly recommend those.

One caveat though. When I started with these many years ago, I had so little control over the shoulder blades (although not having the slightest issue with pull up strength) that I found starting in a hanging position too challenging and even risky w.r.t engraining wrong movement patterns as well as injurie potential. So I found it helpful to start this exercise with feet on ground / chair in order to take off bodyweight (and later on raising intensity step by step by moving the foot support further out). This has kept the intensity low enough to start in complete control, learn the right feeling of retracting / pulling down the scapula and only then move to gradually more challenging position with more weight.

Helped me a lot in getting my shoulder more stable on steep overhanging terrain, and especially in shake-out positions, where shoulder strain is especially high.

[mrjonathanr]

Some interesting stuff on this thread.

These exercises and explanations seem clear and useful:
http://drbenkim.com/posterior-capsule-stretch-shoulder.htm

[jwi]

<<Hanging shrugs>>

Do you mean the same thing as scapular pull-ups?

That's the one. I'll be careful.

[Nibile]

<<Hanging shrugs>>

Do you mean the same thing as scapular pull-ups?

That's the one.

That's also the one that I suggested 100 posts ago... Then here it comes Dr. Andreo Spina and everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.
 

[slackline]

A picture] video is worth a thousand words.

[Nibile]

A picture] video is worth a thousand words.

Because it doesn't involve reading?
 

[Muenchener]

That's also the one that I suggested 100 posts ago... Then here it along comes Dr. Andreo Spina and everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.

Careful Nibs, don't let your normally perfect English slip just because you're frothing with rage & jealousy.

[Nibile]

That's also the one that I suggested 100 posts ago... Then here it along comes Dr. Andreo Spina and everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.

Careful Nibs, don't let your normally perfect English slip just because you're frothing with rage & jealousy.

Hey cheers! Much appreciated!
  does what I wrote have another meaning, or is it plain wrong? 

[jwi]

À propos thousands words. The podcast referred to above is three hours?! Seriously? That's a tenth of the entire IQ84

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[Muenchener]

does what I wrote have another meaning, or is it plain wrong? 

Tricky isn’t it? I’m at the stage with my German where I’m nowhere near perfect, but sufficiently functionally fluent for most purposes that hardly anybody bothers to correct me any more. Except my son occasionally. Which makes it hard to improve further.

“Here comes” means something different – literally, “is approaching right now”; “here it comes” simply isn’t said.

[Nibile]

Got it, cheers.
 

[mrjonathanr]

Well ... In your sentence Nibs, "it" is a direct object or subject pronoun and  "Dr Andreo" is the subject so the two together do not make sense. It's tautologous.

Since you know Spanish (and I do not know Italian) try this:
Aquí lo viene el Doctor Andreo vs Aquí viene el Doctor Andreo
"Aquí viene" = here it/he/she comes

Alles klar? 

[Nibile]

Yes, that's right.
I simply literally translated into English and Italian way of using pronouns. Sometimes we double them, of course it's idiomatic, so it shouldn't be written anyway!
Cheers, nice to learn something new.

[BicepsMou]

<<Hanging shrugs>>

Do you mean the same thing as scapular pull-ups?

That's the one.

That's also the one that I suggested 100 posts ago... Then here it comes Dr. Andreo Spina and everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.
 

Hey Nibs, did not mean to highjack your valuable recommendation!
By reading quickly thru the posts I simply  did not get it, my fault   

[Nibile]

<<Hanging shrugs>>

Do you mean the same thing as scapular pull-ups?

That's the one.

That's also the one that I suggested 100 posts ago... Then here it comes Dr. Andreo Spina and everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.
 

Hey Nibs, did not mean to highjack your valuable recommendation!
By reading quickly thru the posts I simply  did not get it, my fault   

Come on, I wasn't being that serious! No fault at all!
It was just a very good chance for me to be smug as per UKB ancient routes!
 

[Nibile]

*ancient roots.
Sorry. Should have read it before posting. Damn!

[kelvin]

Thanks for the recommendations!

From the wall angels it is clear just how big problem I have with mobility. I've been doing them for a while, and there is no way I can keep my forearms to the wall and having any kind of range of motion.

Just wondering how you're getting on with these? I'm struggling to get any improvement after two months of trying slightly intermittently. I'm doing so much stuff, and for four months now, that I need to have breaks from things. Even laying on the floor and using gravity, which is easier' doesn't seem to be helping.

One thing has seemed to hugely and that's tabletop bridges but holding the bridge and making sure the fingers point sideways and not backwards. Really squeezing the scapulars together gives a really good stretch down the front of the shoulder and into the upper arm.

[jwi]

...

From the wall angels it is clear just how big problem I have with mobility....

Just wondering how you're getting on with these? I'm struggling to get any improvement after two months of trying slightly intermittently.

I'm slowly improving. I've been told that it will take around 6 months of diligent work to get a normal range of motion, ok motor control and decent activation.

[Fultonius]

Taps 'aff AND barefoot/5 finger shoe thingmies... wtf?? 

That's worse than tops off & beanie!!

[erm, sam]

I'm slowly improving. I've been told that it will take around 6 months of diligent work to get a normal range of motion, ok motor control and decent activation.

It probably took me a year of frequent (sessions once or twice a week) stetching before I found a decent improvement in my overhead wall angel type range of motion. Now it takes a little warm up and I can get the back of my hands on floor above my head, straight arms, shoulders in a good position. Before I started, my hands were probably a foot off the floor or something. Takes a while.

[kelvin]

It probably took me a year of frequent (sessions once or twice a week) stetching before I found a decent improvement in my overhead wall angel type range of motion. Now it takes a little warm up and I can get the back of my hands on floor above my head, straight arms, shoulders in a good position. Before I started, my hands were probably a foot off the floor or something. Takes a while.

Interesting - this is something I've always been able to do. It's the angel arms bent and out to the sides that I'm nowhere near doing but good to know persistance pays off. I've been paying attention to what I do at work and how that affects shoulder movement and the muscles I lock up to help and it's pretty obvious now what causes the problem.
I was pasting wallpaper on Wed and it's the first time in maybe 23/4 years that it's caused me no pain or discomfort, during or the next day. A side benifit but much appreciated.

[chris05]

 I can do the full wall angel with hands flat on the wall or floor bit find that my wrists aren't flat once I go below should height, they then lift off while the hands stay in contact with the wall/floor. Been working on getting these flat but not sure after the posts above whether this is a weakness? Does anyone else find this?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Rocksteady]

I can do the full wall angel with hands flat on the wall or floor bit find that my wrists aren't flat once I go below should height, they then lift off while the hands stay in contact with the wall/floor. Been working on getting these flat but not sure after the posts above whether this is a weakness? Does anyone else find this?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Hi Chris,

This is interesting as if I do a wall angel, I find that my left wrist (the side on which I have a history of shoulder impingement) comes off the wall when I go above shoulder height. I simply can't make it touch no matter how hard I try. I suspect for both of us it is areas of specific tightness/weakness/lack of proprioception/inflexibility that we should try to work out.

Great thread for a habitual shoulder sufferer.

Exercises that I have found work in combination:
- Theraband turnouts with arm at different angles (theraband round door handle, grab end, with hand facing towards handle, turn away keeping elbow locked in position, rotating around shoulder joint) - upper arm vertical against chest, starting position hand across body (standard), upper arm parallel to ground, upper arm almost vertical. The last one was recommended by a physio as being more specific to climbing, with the standard version only useful for early stage rehab.

- Theraband front raises. Grab theraband in middle with hands close together at waist height, turn hands out stretching theraband until they are about hip width apart. Lock shoulder blades down and pinch together slightly. Raise hands in front of you with straight arms until vertical over head, repeat. Focus is on keeping shoulder blades down and pinched together rather than allowing them to rise or wing out. Start with an easy theraband - I found this knackering to start with.

- Prone arm lifts. Lie on your face with your head over the edge of a bed (so you can breathe. At physio you do this on their table with a facehole in, have to improvise at home). Hands by your side, palms facing up. Press shoulder blades down and pinch together slightly, which should lift them off bed. Lift hands slowly by your side to about 30 degrees. Hold for 10 seconds. Rest. Repeat. Progressions are to turn palms to face forward, and do 'angel' motions, eventual aim being to lift arms and raise in an arc from by legs to above head whilst keeping your shoulders in correct position.

-

[petejh]

To anyone struggling with range of motion in a shoulder or any other joint (mine's left shoulder following a bad rotator cuff tear 8 years ago), take a look at Douglas Heel's stuff. If you're in the n.Wales area there's a physio who can show you how to do this. Makes a big difference with mine.

[shurt]

I've had shoulder probs over the years (bad rotator cuff tear a while back) and have been using a machine called a Scenar / Pain Genie that my friend bought. When I can afford it I would definitely buy one. It works incredibly.

Just to be clear I have no connection with the people who make them etc blah blah.

Have used on fingers and all sort of muscle injuries and strains acquired through climbing, its great and genuinely works.

[SA Chris]

everyone goes Oooh and Ahhh.

Nothing to do with the post, we are just all in pain from trying those pull ups.

[chris05]

I can do the full wall angel with hands flat on the wall or floor bit find that my wrists aren't flat once I go below should height, they then lift off while the hands stay in contact with the wall/floor. Been working on getting these flat but not sure after the posts above whether this is a weakness? Does anyone else find this?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Hi Chris,

This is interesting as if I do a wall angel, I find that my left wrist (the side on which I have a history of shoulder impingement) comes off the wall when I go above shoulder height. I simply can't make it touch no matter how hard I try. I suspect for both of us it is areas of specific tightness/weakness/lack of proprioception/inflexibility that we should try to work out.

Great thread for a habitual shoulder sufferer.

Exercises that I have found work in combination:
- Theraband turnouts with arm at different angles (theraband round door handle, grab end, with hand facing towards handle, turn away keeping elbow locked in position, rotating around shoulder joint) - upper arm vertical against chest, starting position hand across body (standard), upper arm parallel to ground, upper arm almost vertical. The last one was recommended by a physio as being more specific to climbing, with the standard version only useful for early stage rehab.

- Theraband front raises. Grab theraband in middle with hands close together at waist height, turn hands out stretching theraband until they are about hip width apart. Lock shoulder blades down and pinch together slightly. Raise hands in front of you with straight arms until vertical over head, repeat. Focus is on keeping shoulder blades down and pinched together rather than allowing them to rise or wing out. Start with an easy theraband - I found this knackering to start with.

- Prone arm lifts. Lie on your face with your head over the edge of a bed (so you can breathe. At physio you do this on their table with a facehole in, have to improvise at home). Hands by your side, palms facing up. Press shoulder blades down and pinch together slightly, which should lift them off bed. Lift hands slowly by your side to about 30 degrees. Hold for 10 seconds. Rest. Repeat. Progressions are to turn palms to face forward, and do 'angel' motions, eventual aim being to lift arms and raise in an arc from by legs to above head whilst keeping your shoulders in correct position.

-

Thanks for the exercises. I'll give them a try. I have also been trying to work on it by simply holding the positions without the movement part. So I will have my arms at about shoulder height where I struggle to keep my wrists in contact with the wall and allow by back to arch a little, i then try to extend the lower back so that it is almost flat on the wall but keep my wrists into the wall too. Holding this pose, relaxing and then holding it for say five reps seems to be helping although it's early days. I did get the exercise from somewhere online although not sure where now!