[ducko]

I'm in the no kick board camp 100% saves you making the start moves all easier which is what you tend to do with a kick board I think..
You don't need a big board because Id imagine you want to work power? Having a good angle combined with good holds to use is the key.
You could do short three move boulders and get mega strong (I often making 3/4 move problems on the boards)
Maybe go try out a few boards if you know people who have them?

[Danny]

If you want a hand building it... 

Careful, I might hold you to that.

[honroid]

I've just been faced with a similar dilemma. Previously we were in a house with a garage with pitched rood over 3 meters and had been blessed with a 45 at over 3.5m of climbable surface. It was awesome and served well for hard fingery problems, circuits. We had a kickboard. Previous to that we had the same board in an upstairs double bedroom (with less fall zone and half a pannel shorter).

We've just bought a new place and the garage is 2.2m high and 2.2m wide only (I don't see how you'd even open a car door to exit your car in there...). When we bought it we envisaged extending the rood up a bit and having a board running the full length of the garage at 30 or 35 degrees. I had a few builders round to work out the cost of extending the roof up to accommodate a bigger board but the estimates ran into the thousands.... Errrrr. Scrap plan A.

Queue plan B: a board 2.2m wide and 2.2m high. We've built it at 55 degrees overhanging after a lot of thought. That means it's over 3.5m long again to maximise climbable surface again. It's now up and I have to agree with Probes. It really is the best wall I've climbed on. Probably it's early days and makes a change from the old 45 but really, every problem is a joy. I climb high sevens for reference. The shoulders and core get worked and you can still have small holds set in little volumes and go small small small.

Build it steep.

[36chambers]

I wish I had a woodie

Our spare room is too small and my gf wasn't too happy about the idea of putting our bed in there so we could use the master bedroom.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

If you want a hand building it... 

Careful, I might hold you to that.

Hey, do so, could be fun!

Always great to share your board ideas for inspiration!

[b3n99]

I would say 60 degrees may be a bit on the steep side, 50-55 would be maximum for me I think, can always just use better feet at that angle to get involved with little holds!

My previous board had a kickboard but I would definitely sack it off when I build another, all the best moves start when your feet leave the kickboard anyways!

[Doylo]

My previous board had a kickboard but I would definitely sack it off when I build another, all the best moves start when your feet leave the kickboard anyways!

I'm in two minds whether to have a kickboard on my board. I've always climbed on boards with kickboards and i prefer them but with it being a standard garage (I.e. Not very high) I'm wondering if I'd be better off without. Not having a kickboard would also make the board slightly less steep which would be better for my aims. The middle ground could be having a small kickboard , one line of holds. What do people think?

[Andy W]

I'd say if you have the space have a kickboard, you could always not use!

having tried both, my thoughts are that with a kickboard, you set problems with poor footholds, which often means feet popping, twisting moves, drop knees etc. No kickboard means getting straight into the hard moves. So kickboard better to mimic bouldering, no kickboard better training.

[Oldmanmatt]

My previous board had a kickboard but I would definitely sack it off when I build another, all the best moves start when your feet leave the kickboard anyways!

I'm in two minds whether to have a kickboard on my board. I've always climbed on boards with kickboards and i prefer them but with it being a standard garage (I.e. Not very high) I'm wondering if I'd be better off without. Not having a kickboard would also make the board slightly less steep which would be better for my aims. The middle ground could be having a small kickboard , one line of holds. What do people think?

I replaced the kickboard on my second board with a strip of stud framing (90x30mm) cut at an angle to make it a vertical face and added a grip strip (decking grip) to make a friction only bar.

Easy to take on and off, you can move it up or down as required. I actually made three of them, because this board (as a second board) is used for systems work (aka. steep foot on Campusing). It is vertical on the face, the board was propped up for some adjustments when I took the photo.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.

[webbo]

I have a kick board on my board it's about 7 inches, the boards 40 degrees. I have recently trying lots of my old problems not using any footholds on it, which turns a warm up in to a project.
That's even with footholds large enough to bivi on.

[Nibile]

My experience goes as follows.
Kickboard: better not. It makes the first moves much easier and when you've built it it's difficult not to use it, because the boards starts too high from the ground.
Steepness: better to build it steep, it's easier to tweak a steep board with volumes than to make a less steep board steeper.
In general: in my opinion very steep boards are more useful because they train the whole body, but the thing is quite complex and is largely influenced by the real aim of the person, training versus climbing.
Many people think that a steep board is good for your guns but not for your fingers, and vice versa, but that's partial, it all depends on what you put on the board. On less steep boards to make things really hard you have to resort to very small and slopey holds, and often it all boils down to skin and friction, not to mention that you often end up climbing with better technique without any serious physical improvement (the horror, the horror).
If the real aim is finger strength, nothing, no thing on Earth is better than fingerboarding. No thing.
How many times climbing on a board you have to make an effort similar to a one arm dead hang, in terms of pure % of effort? Never. That's because you want to do multiple moves to climb the problem and then go bragging at the cafe.
Boards are to try and seek the magic formula between isolation and general improvement.
You have to use small holds even on steep boards, but no so small that you need massive footholds. Some bigger holds (like, first joint, like those slappy guys back in the day) and small feet require a far greater effort from the fingers.
But: small feet don't mean good feet. They must be small and bad, that is downfacing, not incut. With present shoes you can pull on anything vaguely incut and as soon as you're able to do that, any hold becomes a bucket.
On less steep boards you have less options for this.
So, my experience is that very steep boards work better for training both fingers and big muscles, depending on how great a bad time the owner wants to have while training.
If the single aim is finger strength, nothing beats a fingerboard.

[Duma]

...not to mention that you often end up climbing with better technique without any serious physical improvement (the horror, the horror).

I love this bit, nibs in a nutshell

[Doylo]

Was hoping for a bit less than 50 degrees for purposes of a replica Nibs. It's going to the same beam regardless so no kickboard will mean it's slightly less steep.

[Will Hunt]

With all respect to Nibs, because he clearly knows A LOT more about training than I do, is it worth taking some of his advice with a pinch of salt? I get the impression that Nibs' training is as much geared around seeing improvements in his board climbing as it is about seeing improvements in his rock climbing (I understand that the two are largely, though perhaps not entirely, interchangeable).

[dave]

Surely there is an important aspect of finger strength relating to being able to hit a hold fast at full stretch and hang it, unless you're planning on doing every move on real rock static. Fingerboarding the way we normally do it doesn't really train this (unless you're jumping onehanded to a fingerboard about 10ft off the deck) and can only really be trained by steep board climbing or maybe campussing.

[T_B]

On a steep board, you're pulling on decent sized holds unless you're Megos (or his arch nemesis). Depends on your background too. I've felt more gains for the fingers f/boarding than I have climbing on steep boards, having done a lot of the latter o'er the years. I also think unless you're relatively pretty weak campussing on anything other than v small holds is not v useful for finger strength. The holds are too big and you're open on them.

[dave]

It's easier to quantify gains on a fingerboard though, whereas even on a basic woody you've got a lot of other factors to deal with, and that can give a false impression.

Let's not forget the anti-Megos was doing absolutely no fingerboarding whatsoever, and only very steep board work, at the time of their first bout.

[Nibile]

Surely there is an important aspect of finger strength relating to being able to hit a hold fast at full stretch and hang it, unless you're planning on doing every move on real rock static. Fingerboarding the way we normally do it doesn't really train this (unless you're jumping onehanded to a fingerboard about 10ft off the deck) and can only really be trained by steep board climbing or maybe campussing.

I'd say that it's more an application of strength. I think it's referred to as "contact strength" but in my experience it's far more related to body tension than to pure finger strength.
Even on a steep board you still have at least two other points of contact (one hand and one foot) if not three, to bear some of the weight, so the effort can be maximal on the specific move but it would never be your max %.
I don't say it's not useful - in fact I train it a lot - I think that it won't give max finger strength gains. Also because after latching the hold you still have to use it, and to be able to use it you have to have that level of strength. I can latch many holds on my board that I'm not able to hang and use because my fingers are not strong enough.
More or less the same thing with campusing, you always have the lower hand and there's a lot of weight on that.
As I said, I think it's a useful tool but not very specific to pure finger strength, also because it's a very complex and multi-factorial movement/excercise. That's why it's good training, because it has a huge carry-over to real climbing.
In my experience specificity and simplicity are the keys when you're looking for specific gains. Even though there's room for more than that obviously.

[Eddies]

Gaskins's board is 40degs and has a kick-board... Just saying!!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Surely there is an important aspect of finger strength relating to being able to hit a hold fast at full stretch and hang it

That sounds very much like the result of a lack of strength - fingers, core, body tension, whatever - the symptoms of. What certain strong young boys referred to a little disdainfully as, being "a bit slappy". 

Hopefully by training and focusing on specific strength gains, we establish a more solid foundation, and that's always a better place to start from. The point at which we fail, is very often not our weak point. Strong fingers and a weak core, will probably leave you slapping for stuff anyway. Of course, it's the ability to "get the power down" that we need to work on.

I don't know what this means, but it's scary    Just be careful    :
"Mariners have an expression that beyond forty degrees South there is no law; beyond fifty degrees, there is no God." The Tempest's Roar by R. A. R. Clouston.

[kelvin]

I don't know what this means, but it's scary    Just be careful    :
"Mariners have an expression that beyond forty degrees South there is no law; beyond fifty degrees, there is no God." The Tempest's Roar by R. A. R. Clouston.

The finest quote in a while.

[Nibile]

Excellent.

[dave]

Surely there is an important aspect of finger strength relating to being able to hit a hold fast at full stretch and hang it

That sounds very much like the result of a lack of strength - fingers, core, body tension, whatever - the symptoms of.

Sorry Dave but that is absolute nonsense.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Surely there is an important aspect of finger strength relating to being able to hit a hold fast at full stretch and hang it

That sounds very much like the result of a lack of strength - fingers, core, body tension, whatever - the symptoms of.

Sorry Dave but that is absolute nonsense.

How about qualifying that somewhat Dave? Or at least include the rest of my post, which puts my comment into some context? Point being, that it might be better to look for ways to improve your control on a dynamic move, rather than how to make the catch.

Strength/weakness is always a matter of prioritisation, so by my comments, I'm referring to those areas you might be better off prioritising. That seems to make sense to me; it's often the hand you're going off, that needs to be stronger, to improve accuracy with the leading hand 

Can't seem to add smiley in edit mode. I think it's a good topic to debate though.

[r-man]

Climbing is a movement-based activity. the traditional approach to training concentrates on isolating static strength, but I often wonder if this is missing half the picture. There are strengths involved in snatching crap holds which I don't think are well trained (isolated) by fingerboarding or campussing on comfy rungs. Sure, you can get super strong and completely avoid dynamic slapping (eg. Paxti) but seeing this as the only route to success is possibly a bit blinkered (eg. Ondra).

Dave T, you are talking about accuracy, but there's much more to it than that. grabbing a hold fast means you always hit it slightly differently. having the finger strength to work in the less than perfect finger position and then readjust and/or power out of it is very different to hanging a carefully placed hold on a fingerboard.