[Danny]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

[Wood FT]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

I think you're thinking too much

[Yoof]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

Definitely banter- Eve is a good mate of mine, and she's been trying Jerry's recently.

[nik at work]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

Clearly it isn't sexism as has already been pointed out, but could you tell me how you thought it could be sexism? I'm struggling to see which part of it is sexist.

[Nibile]

Jesuschrist Nik, how can't you see the sexism?
Jerry's Roof.
Jerry. Male name. You get it now?

[tomtom]

It's a particularly persistent leak...

[Danny]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

Clearly it isn't sexism as has already been pointed out, but could you tell me how you thought it could be sexism? I'm struggling to see which part of it is sexist.

To report a significant repeat by an unknown climber, and then to highlight a failure in the same sentence—albeit banterously.

To be clear, I wasn't sure, and am happy to be wrong in this instance. I wasn't implying raging and explicit sexism of course Yoof, it just struck me as one of those unconscious little things that we all probably do from time to time.



   

[Muenchener]

Strikes me as exactly the sort of thing one/I would say about a male friend's achievements. A bit laddish perhaps, but surely "sexist" would be going out of one's way to not talk about a woman's achievements in a bantering way, because delicate sensitive flower etc?

[Will Hunt]

The steely fingered Eve Lancashire has gone and repeated Rare Lichen! However, she still can’t do Jerry's Roof…   

A great effort.

Difficult to tell on the internet whether the Jerry's Roof comment is banter or everyday sexism. I'll assume the former.

Clearly it isn't sexism as has already been pointed out, but could you tell me how you thought it could be sexism? I'm struggling to see which part of it is sexist.

To report a significant repeat by an unknown climber, and then to highlight a failure in the same sentence—albeit banterously.

To be clear, I wasn't sure, and am happy to be wrong in this instance. I wasn't implying raging and explicit sexism of course Yoof, it just struck me as one of those unconscious little things that we all probably do from time to time.



 

I'm going to avoid talking about any woman from now on, just to be sure.

What absolute nonsense.

[dave]

You can't avoid talking about women, that's sexist. You'd have to avoid talking about both, sorry, all genders.

[Danny]

I'm wrong here. But I never suggested we should avoid taking about women, or that Yoof was being outright sexist, or that I was sure about what I was saying. Interesting responses from y'all.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I'm wrong here. But I never suggested we should avoid taking about women, or that Yoof was being outright sexist, or that I was sure about what I was saying. Interesting responses from y'all.

Yes, I'd say you probably are wrong here (but are you? .. Oh heck) and I also might question your motives (not pre-judge) for pointing it out, and asking the question, and likewise, I may be wrong there too.

However, there was a time when, very often, if a woman climbed a hard route, people would say "well it's not a powerful route, is it?" . Just thinking, off the top of my head, e.g. Predator at Malham, Right Wall, back in the day etc.

I used to see remarks like that as a form of defensiveness against challenges to the bastion of the strong (Male). In that context, I would say there is still sexism in climbing. Reading your post, I felt that that was what you were probably referring to - something fuelled by male ego defensiveness. It still exists, and your point is a valid one to raise. (IMHO).

There is the other equally valid question of the differences between men and women, and how we are differently equipped for the challenge of climbing rock. I find that a really fascinating question.

I think it was a very good point to raise.

 

[highrepute]

The fact that the question was raised and not smashed down is quite impressive imho. It's a nuanced subject and lines are thin and vague. A forum full of men just managed to have a balanced discussion about it.

Personally I don't think it was sexism.

But Dave Thomas's post raises some interesting points on the subject.

[benno]

Blimey, a discussion of sexism in which everyone has been reasonable I like this place.

[SA Chris]

Yep, if everyone is going to be nice, then its run its cource. Lock and Log.

[Oldmanmatt]

I'm wrong here. But I never suggested we should avoid taking about women, or that Yoof was being outright sexist, or that I was sure about what I was saying. Interesting responses from y'all.

Yes, I'd say you probably are wrong here (but are you? .. Oh heck) and I also might question your motives (not pre-judge) for pointing it out, and asking the question, and likewise, I may be wrong there too.

However, there was a time when, very often, if a woman climbed a hard route, people would say "well it's not a powerful route, is it?" . Just thinking, off the top of my head, e.g. Predator at Malham, Right Wall, back in the day etc.

I used to see remarks like that as a form of defensiveness against challenges to the bastion of the strong (Male). In that context, I would say there is still sexism in climbing. Reading your post, I felt that that was what you were probably referring to - something fuelled by male ego defensiveness. It still exists, and your point is a valid one to raise. (IMHO).

There is the other equally valid question of the differences between men and women, and how we are differently equipped for the challenge of climbing rock. I find that a really fascinating question.

I think it was a very good point to raise.

 

I get what you're saying and agree, to a high degree; however...

I sometimes fail to see the nuanced differences between (apparently) sexist comments like "well, it's not a power route" (as applied to a female climber) and "well, he's a lanky bastard, isn't he".
I often feel that defensiveness is a more personal, individual thing and not some subconscious resistance to equality for half the population.
This is not to imply that that sexism does not exist, it surely does.
But, no-one would have batted an eyelid, had that identical comment been made about (for instance) a young male climber. That should be the test of any such banter, as surely if it's good for the Gander it should be good for the Goose.
Or is equality not what we're aiming for here?



All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.

[Yoof]

Just gonna stick my neck out here and state exact motives for my choice of phrasing. In the significant repeats thread it's mentioned that Gwen (Eve's sister) is particularly self deprecating- Eve is pretty similar.

When Eve told me she had repeated Rare Lichen I called her a mega-wad amongst many other things, finding it crazy that our Eve had climbed E9 (regardless of route style- I'm a boulderer who like massive holds and can't contemplate using lots of tiny tiny holds one after another). Of course she objected to the compliment, saying that she "can't do jerry's... yet!!", amongst other things. I have no doubt she'll get it soon enough.

When writing the comment I was actually wary that it might sound a bit sexist without context (i.e. "she's a girl so can't climb properly hard things"), but figured it would be okay. Clearly the internet is not the place for nuanced references. And actually I applaud Danny for calling me out on it (with the caveat of "if it were a young lad we wouldn't be having this conversation").

[DAVETHOMAS90]

That's very open, and well put.

[Jaspersharpe]

Everyone says the same thing about Barrows all the time. Case closed.

[Bonjoy]

Clearly the internet is not the place for nuanced references.

I disagree, I think 99% of UKB users will have surmised how it was meant, even without knowing you know Eve. Self censorship of this sort of thing to avoid offending the other 1% is the wrong way to go IMO and serves to reinforce the notion that avoiding the offence of posters should be the overriding consideration when posting. Better to be called out and put the complainant straight than to dumb down your own expression, which would have been inverted sexism anyway (given that your comment would have been instantly understood and uncommented upon if addressed at a male).

[Duma]

What Bonjoy said