[bendavison]

I am not sure I would phrase it like that but I suppose I can't understand the logic in making it available in climbing walls (other than making money), I am not being wilfully obtuse, my initial question: is this an assessment thing or a training thing is sincere because….

it is designed as an assessment tool as it fairly basic and non height dependent and reasonably technique-less, ok sort of makes sense, it creates a fairly even playing field for people the first couple of times they use it.
 
But once it becomes a training tool/available on demand which some can access regularly you can learn how to do it more efficiently (just as people get good at campus boarding (even thought it is fair more basic than using the l'board) without getting any stronger) and you learn the tricks. 

So, it loses it's use a tool for assessment/comparison as you have some people with access to it so learn it and others who do not (or don't see the point in it) won't but may train just as hard but won't score as high on the l'board so comparison is invalid and any data gathered before people could practice becomes meaningless.
 
I think as a training tool it will be fairly limited because, as the creator says, it is just one move so (in my opinion) you don't get the variety which is required to climb well and as you get good at the move the efficacy of it as a training tool will plummet. 

Ok if you have unlimited time it might be useful to supplement other training (but this still scuppers it's use as an assessment tool) but most people are time limited and I can't see this being method being superior than lapping boulder problems or climbing a lot of routes.

I work at the Foundry, which now has a lattice board and am under the impression that we got it because Tommy wanted to outsource his assessments. A couple staff members have been trained to carry out the assessments. So we get some money and Tommy get's some more clients (hopefully) and even more exposure. I also have little doubt that some people will come in to have a play around on it because it's new and interesting.

I think it's use as a training tool is little different to foot-on-campussing. It's continuous pretty easy moves and doesn't really have a crux, so you can easily measure/force improvement by increasing the work-rest ratio. Other than that, there are few options to increase the difficulty incrementally and that is quite limiting for many types of session IMO. For example, I think a typical aeropow sesh (sets of ~30 move circuits) would soon lose its training stimulus for many people on the 27 deg board we have at the Foundry. Though if Tommy uses it, then maybe I'm wrong!

It's perhaps a bit more skin friendly than FoC, but you're still pulling on the same hold repeatedly, often nestling your pinky into the V, and probably far more skin friendly than most circuits.

I'm not sure if training on it would reduce it's use as an assessment tool. I don't agree that you could improve much just by becoming more efficient; the circuit is really simple - I went round it once or twice in full and once in two halves to learn it before doing the test to failure, and that felt like enough. But, I suspect you will adapt to the pace and hold type etc on the board, and that could artificially improve your score.

[tim palmer]

I work at the Foundry, which now has a lattice board and am under the impression that we got it because Tommy wanted to outsource his assessments. A couple staff members have been trained to carry out the assessments. So we get some money and Tommy get's some more clients (hopefully) and even more exposure. I also have little doubt that some people will come in to have a play around on it because it's new and interesting.

I think it's use as a training tool is little different to foot-on-campussing. It's continuous pretty easy moves and doesn't really have a crux, so you can easily measure/force improvement by increasing the work-rest ratio. Other than that, there are few options to increase the difficulty incrementally and that is quite limiting for many types of session IMO. For example, I think a typical aeropow sesh (sets of ~30 move circuits) would soon lose its training stimulus for many people on the 27 deg board we have at the Foundry. Though if Tommy uses it, then maybe I'm wrong!

It's perhaps a bit more skin friendly than FoC, but you're still pulling on the same hold repeatedly, often nestling your pinky into the V, and probably far more skin friendly than most circuits.

I'm not sure if training on it would reduce it's use as an assessment tool. I don't agree that you could improve much just by becoming more efficient; the circuit is really simple - I went round it once or twice in full and once in two halves to learn it before doing the test to failure, and that felt like enough. But, I suspect you will adapt to the pace and hold type etc on the board, and that could artificially improve your score.

Ah cool, that is all I wanted to know (i.e. what was the point). 
On the learnt movement thing i disagree, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

[Three Nine]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected. I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing. Reminded me of climbing with Shark.

[tim palmer]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected. I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing. Reminded me of climbing with Shark.

In a stunning upset to form, I could not agree more. 

[petejh]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. not moving house so you can build a large training board in your garage...

Fixed that

[Three Nine]

That too. Doesn't need to be large for aerocrap. I aerocrap on a 45degree 8x8 board with big jugs on. Boring as hell but works.

[tomtom]

Humble flavour...

[Sidehaas]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected.

I don't disagree but don't think it's an important factor in putting one up or not. The v8-9 circuit at the wall won't be useful for ≥95% of climbers either. Ditto a campus board, steep woodie or moonboard.
  If you've got some space and some people think they would benefit, them I say it's a good idea.  Climbing wall training facilities should be as varied and flexible as possible without compromising the actual climbing wall.

[kelvin]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected.

  If you've got some space and some people think they would benefit, them I say it's a good idea.  Climbing wall training facilities should be as varied and flexible as possible without compromising the actual climbing wall.

Take Loughborough - two circuit boards, a 10deg and the steeper one. The lattice board has replaced half of the 10deg one and whilst it's true that it's aimed at 6a+ climbers and upwards, surely having the 10deg circuit board would benefit them/me more?

[nai]

Loughborough's Tom's wall (at least partly) isn't it...

How much use did the 10 degree get?

Kind of agree with you but (and maybe this is why nobody should listen to my training advice) I'd suggest a 6a+ climber boulder to get stronger and do loads of route mileage to improve movement, rather than circuits.

And of course get a new job and move closer to rocks, etc.

[Tommy]

Ah cool, that is all I wanted to know (i.e. what was the point). 
On the learnt movement thing i disagree, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

I completely agree Tim - you will get an effect of learning on the board and more and more time on it will increase the economy of movement. I think all of us who've climbed for long enough know that this is one of our best weapons to use when approaching a hard project.... although it's a bit of sliding scale as some people take a very long time to properly learn things!

I'm not overly concerned at present (although we'll keep checking data) on the above effect altering the data hugely, mainly because you have to spend a considerable amount of time on the board and be almost obsessive about it to start making big differences. These people will be relatively few in number compared to the total number in the data set and also (I suspect) less likely to be the ones who will pay for full assessments and therefore cause their scores to affect the data.

We've agreed to put a board in the two TCA walls, so if you're near either of them then go and have a go... you might be a bit strong for it though eh? 

[Paul B]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected. I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing. Reminded me of climbing with Shark.

This is spot on. I'm not sure what's going on this year but I seem completely comfortable to be lobbing off things (skipping QDs, extending things a long way etc.) left right and centre (how do I make sure this remains?) and it makes such a difference. I've watched a number of people at Kilnsey this year who are all capable of easily waltzing up their project but shout take, often linked to a prior "bad experience" falling off something.

[Bonjoy]

The main problem with the thing I imagine is that for 95% of climbers in this country, the things that hold people back are all the Dave Mac stuff - fear of falling, being shit at movement, not trying very hard, not going climbing enough etc. training on a lattice board/training which is too preoccupied with the physical, will mean that these more important things are neglected. I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing. Reminded me of climbing with Shark.

This is spot on. I'm not sure what's going on this year but I seem completely comfortable to be lobbing off things (skipping QDs, extending things a long way etc.) left right and centre (how do I make sure this remains?) and it makes such a difference. I've watched a number of people at Kilnsey this year who are all capable of easily waltzing up their project but shout take, often linked to a prior "bad experience" falling off something.

I think belayer trust (or lack thereof) is a large factor in this.
As with most things in climbing maintaining volume will stop the fear creeping back. That said even if you take a long break you wont entirely loose the benefit of current confidence, you'll just have to go through a relatively short relearn at the start of the next season.

More on topic. After years of not doing any structured training and doing lots of climbing on rock I've decided I'm one of those climbers who'd get a real boost from doing the sort of training that isolates movement and have just built a training board in my garden. Like Tommy's board it's kind of a new design and could also be used a measuring tool.

[tim palmer]

Ah cool, that is all I wanted to know (i.e. what was the point). 
On the learnt movement thing i disagree, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

I completely agree Tim - you will get an effect of learning on the board and more and more time on it will increase the economy of movement. I think all of us who've climbed for long enough know that this is one of our best weapons to use when approaching a hard project.... although it's a bit of sliding scale as some people take a very long time to properly learn things!

I'm not overly concerned at present (although we'll keep checking data) on the above effect altering the data hugely, mainly because you have to spend a considerable amount of time on the board and be almost obsessive about it to start making big differences. These people will be relatively few in number compared to the total number in the data set and also (I suspect) less likely to be the ones who will pay for full assessments and therefore cause their scores to affect the data.

We've agreed to put a board in the two TCA walls, so if you're near either of them then go and have a go... you might be a bit strong for it though eh? 

thanks for the reply, i don't really know much about this sort of thing, if you think the movement thing won't make a difference I am sure you are right.  to be honest it is something I would be highly unlikely to use, as I don't use the campus board much (I think campus-ing problems is much better training) as I find I plateau extremely quickly and get injured in the process of trying to improve doing highly repetitive movements of that sort.
Just to ask one more silly question, if you were to train someone would this the use of this board be a key part of the training I.e. Something that would be done every session? Assuming you were trying to get someone fit obvs

[Paul B]

I think belayer trust (or lack thereof) is a large factor in this.
As with most things in climbing maintaining volume will stop the fear creeping back. That said even if you take a long break you wont entirely loose the benefit of current confidence, you'll just have to go through a relatively short relearn at the start of the next season.

Interesting. I think 3 years ago, falling on gear a fair amount and even aiding on what appears to be relatively poor placements really improves your confidence in what gear can really do. Therefore, a massive 12mm bolt might as well be welded to the earth's core. I'm definitely one that could easily fall into the 'strong' and scared category in the past and as Three Nine has pointed out a LOT of people are the same.

Sorry less  I've got some redpointing questions attached to the above that possibly warrant their own thread.

[tomtom]

I think belayer trust (or lack thereof) is a large factor in this.
As with most things in climbing maintaining volume will stop the fear creeping back. That said even if you take a long break you wont entirely loose the benefit of current confidence, you'll just have to go through a relatively short relearn at the start of the next season.

Interesting. I think 3 years ago, falling on gear a fair amount and even aiding on what appears to be relatively poor placements really improves your confidence in what gear can really do. Therefore, a massive 12mm bolt might as well be welded to the earth's core.

It does help that you are light.. . The same lobs wearing a 40kg backpack might be interesting

(I'm being facetious.. Sorry).

[Doylo]

I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing.

Reminds me of watching Lee Proctor trying his life goal , the FA of Grand Canyon extension. His dream route at his local crag. A 3 star first ascent which would have been the highlight of his climbing life. You would have thought with all this in mind he would have been balls out on the last moves, trying as hard as he could until he was literally off the wall but it was the opposite when I saw him. Minimal effort, minimal fight and commitment. I guess it's quite common. Incomprehensible to me.

[user deactivated]

For some it might feel better to fail not trying than to fail trying hard. At least then you can say I didn't really try. Some people don't even set out based on this I'm sure.

[Luke Owens]

I climbed on Monday with a friend who said 'take' whilst in a rest, nearly at the top of his current redpoint project. He then declared he needed to work on endurance. What he actually needed to do was grow a pair and give himself a chance of getting up the thing.

Reminds me of watching Lee Proctor trying his life goal , the FA of Grand Canyon extension. His dream route at his local crag. A 3 star first ascent which would have been the highlight of his climbing life. You would have thought with all this in mind he would have been balls out on the last moves, trying as hard as he could until he was literally off the wall but it was the opposite when I saw him. Minimal effort, minimal fight and commitment. I guess it's quite common. Incomprehensible to me.

He did the FA though didn't he...!

[petejh]

He did the FA though didn't he...!

Must stand for '1 Protracted Travail'.

[Nibile]

My small version of Tommy's board. Boredom and suffering and mind tricks taken to another level. Just pure physical improvements will take you further.

[Jim]

More on topic. After years of not doing any structured training and doing lots of climbing on rock I've decided I'm one of those climbers who'd get a real boost from doing the sort of training that isolates movement and have just built a training board in my garden. Like Tommy's board it's kind of a new design and could also be used a measuring tool.

I would be interested to see what your board looks like Jon

[dave]

All the holds made from sawn-up wooden rulers?

[Oldmanmatt]

All the holds made from sawn-up wooden rulers?

Pah!

Old Bic razors.



All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.