[monkoffunk]

This is a topic that has definitely come up in power club a few times that I remember, but a google search of UKB and a quick back over last few pages of post suggest it hasn't been discussed in a thread alone for a while. If I just missed it, anyone got the link?

Essentially it seems a fairly common issue, a lot of people tend to power out quite quickly meaning either few problems completed a session or few attempts at a hard problem.

Seems to be two ways of overcoming the issue.

Firstly training. Essentially the obvious solution would seem to be training sessions with high volume a grade or two below max.

Secondly, and what I'm more interested in, is tactics and plan of action for the day. Previous ideas raised on power club include varying the style of problem so you don't tire out on one movement say, and climbing with friends who are likely to work out the beta first, before you swoop in for the quick send beta vampire style. My approach which tends to have reasonable results is being as disciplined as possible in terms of allowing adequate rest between goes. Enforced stopwatch usage has become pretty mandatory if I actually want to get up something. Other sensible and probably obvious tactics include following the shade, climbing in optimal conditions.

I'm wondering about going further than this. Essentially my tactics still seem to be rest between goes around 10-20 mins depending on the problem and then rest between problems as long as it takes to walk between them. I wonder if anyone goes further than that. For example, split the day into set sessions, say a couple of hours with an hour between, or two or three set sessions a day, or just maybe an hour between problems (numbers out of thin air really). Maybe the time isn't so important and more subjective measures of recovery can be used. Also what to do in that recovery time? Maybe post workout style nutrition, maybe something other than sitting around doing nothing?

Bit rambling, but anyone have any thoughts or things they have tried? Essentially I have so much that I want to do that to have any hope of doing it all I need to start climbing more problems in a day, at or close to limit. Being better the obvious solution, but still possible to be strong and screw yourself with poor tactics.

[SA Chris]

Not exactly the same question, but a few insights here

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=5742.0

[monkoffunk]

Efficient refinement of beta. Easier said than done?

[SA Chris]

Depends how good you are at it. I find I usually get a viable sequency worked out quite quickly, but it's the microbeta where the difference between success and failure lies.

[i_a_coops]

I think for that, it's worth practising NOT trying hard while working things. Obviously more useful for longer problems and routes, and certainly not applicable to one move boulder problems, but if you're trying to sort moves out individually, it's sometimes better to not exert maximum force to get a sequence to work when you could pull a bit less and plop straight off, then think 'oh that sequence is clearly crap' and still have the energy to try another few options until you find one that works better.

People who mainly boulder tend to be quite bad at this.

[monkoffunk]

In retrospect doing my best link on Directoonima when putting the draws in was stupid.

[Muenchener]

Having a partner who understands the concept of resting sufficiently is valuable, and sadly rare in my experience.

[ghisino]

two things about rests

1) depending on the nature of the effort, i am not at my best straight after a long rest (more than 15 min). This is especially true for bouldering, and routes with an early crux.
My strategy when coming back from the rest is either expecting to fall off really early on my first attempt (the real attempt will be the second, less than 5 mins after falling off) of to have some sort of brief warm up, focused on power.

2)both mentally and physically, rests seem more effective if i am active and i can walk away from the boulder/route. If you can, avoid sitting there.

[36chambers]

2)both mentally and physically, rests seem more effective if i am active and i can walk away from the boulder/route. If you can, avoid sitting there.

To add to this. If I'm impatiently sitting there waiting for my 10 minute rest to finally pass, when it does I nearly always feel too much pressure on that next go and usually make a silly mistake. Which is why I find it helps to go for a wander or at least have someone nearby to talk to or watch climb, and then suddenly it's time to have another go.

Another mental trick I've started using when trying hard problems is to never think "This is the go, I'm definitely going to do it" just before pulling on, because I inevitably climb badly. Rather, I try not to think about it and casually tell myself that I'm just having a play on the moves to remind myself how they feel.

This approach now extends to going to the crag with the intent of "just working the moves", rather than "today is the day!". It makes a huge difference for me, your results may vary. 

[Fultonius]

After

This approach now extends to going to the crag with the intent of "just working the moves", rather than "today is the day!". It makes a huge difference for me, your results may vary. 

After getting through the crux surprisingly early on my hardest sport RP to date, then subsequently fluffing an easier move higher up, I had a few poor RP sessions. On the second session, after falling twice on easier moves before the crux I said:

Shit conditions today, I'll just go up and strip the draws.

At which point I cruised it. Head games, eh?

[monkoffunk]

When I did Hall of Mirrors I put loads of pressure on myself to do it in one session for some reason (think because it was the hardest thing on my unfinished business list). Had a bad time, actually felt anxious all day, which is very unusual for me climbing. Kept screwing up foot sequence and failing. Went back couple of weeks later, decided just to have a play and refine beta, essentially because it was quite hot. Last go I said, 'it's pretty hot, reckon I'll just go up it and take out the draws'. Went that go.

As for rest, I think for longer sport I need more say 30 mins at least, and boulders probably 10 mins even after a couple of moves. I always want to smash it repeatedly and ineffectively and need to stop myself doing it. However completely agree that can be too long. Just listened to Barrows training beta podcast and he mentions this. If you warm up and then belay for an hour, you will be cold by the time that hour is up. Need to do something to re-warm up and get re-recruited.

[monkoffunk]

Oh the other thing is a bit of positivity. Not necessarily 'it will definitely go this time', but certainly not 'you are so shit you can't even climb'. That doesn't help either. Think I was getting into the habit of being a bit over self critical recently.

[ghisino]

Oh the other thing is a bit of positivity. Not necessarily 'it will definitely go this time', but certainly not 'you are so shit you can't even climb'. That doesn't help either. Think I was getting into the habit of being a bit over self critical recently.

imho the best possible scenario is to have no clear expectations and embrace the uncertainty.
That said, it is not an easy place to achieve.

[monkoffunk]

New age hippy zen.

[csl]

As for rest, I think for longer sport I need more say 30 mins at least... Need to do something to re-warm up and get re-recruited.

I find this fairly crucial for doing more in a day - but rest a lot longer than that for longer sport routes. If i fall off anywhere near the top, i usually rest between 45 mins - 1hr30 mins, but do re-warm up before getting back on the route.

[monkoffunk]

Going to bare that in mind tomorrow in Cheddar. Few goes over several hours.

[csl]

Just judging by a couple of posts up - if you are on Directoonima, be patient and wait till the sun's been off the crag for a little while and I bet the top crux of SAMTK will feel a lot easier.

[monkoffunk]

Oh yeah, last time didn't get on it til about 3 or 4pm! Mental getting on that in the sun.

[ghisino]

New age hippy zen.

not really.

very simply, each of the following situations has high potential for distraction and "nearly done it" mess:

-100% convinced that i will do it : any small mistake or "harder than expected" move starts some unnecessary self talk, which makes me slower and more prone to other errors
-100% convinced that i won't do it : i don't even fight. I let go as soon as i'm not cruising anymore.
-anxious about the uncertain result: to me, it has a similar effect to being scared about falling. I'll end up not really trying to make that desperate move stick (so i get a predictable result: a fall that has been anticipated for a fraction of a second, and somehow "chosen") instead of really going for it and getting a random outcome.


the formulation of it is a bit cliché but it doesn't mean there's no element of truth!.


loosely related, but OT: on subjectively important redpoints, especially when sport climbing, i feel that the style of encouragements matters.
The worst being silence followed by vigourous shouting at the crux and phrases such as "you got this...do it man!". It really disrupts my concentration and makes my anxiety levels go through the roof.
The best being a constant, calm repetition of very simple words, like a background noise, or a music loop: "c'mon...allez...c'mon...allez..."

[ghisino]

Just judging by a couple of posts up - if you are on Directoonima, be patient and wait till the sun's been off the crag for a little while and I bet the top crux of SAMTK will feel a lot easier.

oh, talking of strategies.

working/reharsing moves and short sections in the sun/bad conditions, try for real in good conditions.
For similar reasons, save little extras such as the best pair of shoes or liquid chalk for the real redpoint.

[monkoffunk]

oh, talking of strategies.

working/reharsing moves and short sections in the sun/bad conditions, try for real in good conditions.
For similar reasons, save little extras such as the best pair of shoes or liquid chalk for the real redpoint.

I find that exhausting. I understand the idea of wanting to make it feel easier on the redpoint, but I just find it energy sapping climbing in the blazing sun. I'm sure there is a happy medium, but in Cheddar recently its been blazing sun or decent shade.

not really.

very simply, each of the following situations has high potential for distraction and "nearly done it" mess:

-100% convinced that i will do it : any small mistake or "harder than expected" move starts some unnecessary self talk, which makes me slower and more prone to other errors
-100% convinced that i won't do it : i don't even fight. I let go as soon as i'm not cruising anymore.
-anxious about the uncertain result: to me, it has a similar effect to being scared about falling. I'll end up not really trying to make that desperate move stick (so i get a predictable result: a fall that has been anticipated for a fraction of a second, and somehow "chosen") instead of really going for it and getting a random outcome.

I was trying to harness my inner hippy zen like state the other day and it seemed to work. I want to find that place where I'm not stressed about the result, but I am focused on the process. So its not about whether I succeed or fail, but it does matter if I give it everything on the attempt. I'll be happy if I try hard and switch it on. Less likely to get stressed and beat myself up if I fall.

loosely related, but OT: on subjectively important redpoints, especially when sport climbing, i feel that the style of encouragements matters.
The worst being silence followed by vigourous shouting at the crux and phrases such as "you got this...do it man!". It really disrupts my concentration and makes my anxiety levels go through the roof.
The best being a constant, calm repetition of very simple words, like a background noise, or a music loop: "c'mon...allez...c'mon...allez..."

I don't mind complete silence. I find I can really focus. I also don't mind some encouragement at the vital moments, or even the loop that you describe, but maybe not quite so constant. A continuous 'ALLEZ, ALLEZ, ALLEZ!!' or similar is the worst.

[TheTwig]

My fave session is bouldering volume days. I'll just do absolutely massive amounts of stuff just below/at my limit. If I can't get something after 4 tries then I move on. Looking back through my spreadsheet of pain I've done zillions of days of 25-40 problems between hard-flash and 4 tries

As alluded on the Megos does Hubble thread, I think you can train to train stamina, if that makes sense  No way I could handle that kind of volume a few years ago, even though the relative difficulty of the individual problems is the same

[36chambers]

A few more things to add into the mix for a successful day of ticking (although not stamina related).

- Skin management is obviously very important, I don't use antihydral but I always have sandpaper and probably use it most sessions on the grit.

- Additionally, I've recently made a portable fingerboard which I've found very useful for warming up without trashing my fingertips.

- Very obvious, but if possible, work the moves before trying the link. I once saw someone working Demon Wall Roof Left Hand 7C at the cliff (which has a burly but easy roof section followed by a grim crimpy top wall section). After watching him climb through the bottom countless times only to quickly fall on the top section, I asked him which beta he was using, apparently he hadn't worked it yet. It's very easy to reach and start on the crimpy part off the deck!

- Use a ladder... (or a rope) to check out the holds. I've never used a ladder, but it's obvious how helpful they could be to check out holds/moves on problems which are hard to get to otherwise.

- Power spotting! I once had my gf on her hands and knees so I could lie on her back and pull onto Keelhaul with my feet in the crack to see if I could actually reach the lip. Twas a funny sight.

- Make sure you can actually do the crux before wasting time, effort, and skin trying to figure out the rest of the problem...

These are all obvious, but I just thought I'd share my musings.

[Coops_13]

I once had my gf on her hands and knees

Some things should stay off the internet mate... 

[monkoffunk]

Portable fingerboard was great in font, particularly after a few days. Good for warming up and numbing the finger tip pain...